Looking for info on the Belgian T15

Jon Bradshaw · #1 21-10-12, 05:20

Hello I am new to this part of the forum, I spend most of my time on the carrier page. I have a few carriers and one of them (a T16) is pretty much stripped to the chassis, I was thinking of making a Tank out of it and the Belgian T15 fits the size and road wheel layout pretty well.

The T15 was a version of the British "Commercial Light Tank Vickers Carden-Loyd 4 ton" (designated T15 by the Belgians). They had a two-man crew and were armed with a 13.2 mm French Hotchkiss machine gun mounted in the turret. A total of 42 of these tanks were delivered and assigned to Belgian units before the German invasion.

I have lots of pictures of the Germans using them after the Belgians fell and a few are in museums but none near me. I am looking for anyone with interior photos showing how they were driven, ie: steering wheel or tiller bars and what the seats looked like.

Any help would be great.

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 21-10-12, 19:55

Hello Jon,

Excellent idea for a T16 "bathtub". My choice would be to replicate the Model 1936 "Dutchman", as built for and used by the Netherlands East Indies Army. These saw combat in 1941 and some of them were later captured and put to use by the Japanese Army.

Apart from being a personal choice, I think this type of turret would be easier to replicate as it is made of flat plate. Also I would use the cletrack steering of the T16, as far as I know the Vickers had the same with tiller steering. The steering wheel with track warping system was typical for the Universal Carriers.

Search for Vickers Dutchman on this forum to find more information on these interesting little tanks.

HTH,
Hanno

Jon Bradshaw · #3 22-10-12, 01:53

Thanks Hanno

I have seen both tanks online,in museum shots and war footage. They are very similar in hull design. The turret will be the toughest part to fabricate and a flat plate turret is probably easier to fabricate. I'll look for more info on them and see what I can find for interior shots. Any ideas for a turret ring? I'm thinking for the geared part? I need to crawl through a few scrap yards for an inwards gear to rotate it.

Lynn Eades · #4 22-10-12, 07:14

I see you will have to "chop and burn' a bit. the drive axle is at the other end from a T16, so you will have to gut it and start from scratch facing the other way.

Hanno Spoelstra · #5 22-10-12, 20:56

Jon,

I don't think they used a turret ring, but a series of rollers similar to the setup on the US M3 series Light Tanks and M8 armoured car. Go to the earlier thread Vickers Carden Loyd Commercial Light Tanks and lookup the link to a download of AFV Weapons Profile No 5 "Light Tanks Marks I - VI", that booklet has a lot of info.

Like Lynn said, it will take a considerable reconstruction to turn a T16 into a light tank. They had the engine to the right, driver to the left, which is not easy to reconstruct. Ideally, you would need a differential offset to the right. An alternative is to move the engine to the rear and connect it to the gearbox/differential with a prop shaft (just like in a Stuart and Sherman tank).

Lots to ponder about, am looking forward to hear how you plan to tackle it.

H.

Jon Bradshaw · #6 23-10-12, 07:40

It is too bad the diff is on the front. There are a few ways I have thought of doing this.
One, the easier way is to make a "dummy" drive sproket and leave the diff in the rear. I have seen this done on a panzer 2 conversion and it looked OK. The wheels were done over to make them look different as well.
The second is to weld a fake front end on the rear and drive in reverse. Engine would be put in to drive diff in reverse.
The third is to attempt to remove the front lower plate and weld/bolt the diff onto it then re-attach it. This allows the diff in the front with the least amount of cutting to the carrier.
For an engine and transmission I was thinking of using a modern engine with an automatic. Engine and transmission in the rear and a longer shaft under a cover on the floor to the front.
A similar arrangement to the more modern Lynx. I have driven armoured vehicles with automatic trans and they are very forgiving.
Since the tank will be a frankenstien it will never pass inspection from the hard core guys.
I have a few converted carrier pics you may have seen over the years to give me ideas.

Andrew · #7 23-10-12, 10:49

That first pic looks like John Dallimore's replica panzer 2. I'm not sure if he's here on this forum. He's in Mount Albert Ontario

Jon Bradshaw · #8 25-10-12, 07:39

I'm not sure where the pics came from I have been hunting for pice on the internet for years. They come from reenactments or gatherings of people like us.

I have lokated an offset gearbox so the engine should be able to be set off center and give me room for the crew.

The Thun museum in Switzerland has a good set of pics restoring their T15/ Dutchman/ Vickers 4 ton.

Hanno Spoelstra · #9 26-10-12, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw

I'm not sure where the pics came from I have been hunting for pice on the internet for years. They come from reenactments or gatherings of people like us.

Check the watermark - they are from http://www.preservedtanks.com/

Quote:

I have lokated an offset gearbox so the engine should be able to be set off center and give me room for the crew.

That's a great find, I'd be interested to hear what this gearbox came off. Is it an automatic?

Quote:

The Thun museum in Switzerland has a good set of pics restoring their T15/ Dutchman/ Vickers 4 ton.

A Vickers-Carden-Loyd Light Tank Model 1933, to be precise. See this link for a picture of this superb restoration.

Hanno

Jon Bradshaw · #10 27-10-12, 01:23

I need to be more clear. The pics I can't credit are the ones of the modified carriers.

My father found the gear box many years ago, he says it came off of an "old army truck" and from his discription it was for the front drive shaft on a four wheel drive truck. He thinks it will do fine. Now he just needs to dig it out. No pics of it.

I looked at the other post and it is from the same set I looked through. I noticed the bogies/ spring suspension are different on the old photo when compared to the new restored one. That is where I was unsure of the exact model. The restored one seems to have the more "modern" type similar to the universal/ T16 carriers.

Jon Bradshaw · #11 01-01-13, 01:57

As you can see in the thread above, I am going to try to modify a T16 to be a Dutchman and the carrier/ Panzer 1 above is a great example of what I need to do. Anyone know whose it is? Have more pics? I was told it was possibly John Dallimore's but can't confirm it.

Jon Bradshaw · #12 02-01-13, 05:16

Yes it is his and we are now in contact.

Jon Bradshaw · #13 21-01-13, 04:41

Does anyone know what size engine would have been in the Dutchman/Vickers tanks? I have seen a picture of the engine but nothing to say what horsepower it has. I know the universal carriers/T16s had between an 80 and 90hp engine. I would think the Dutchman would have needed about 120hp or bigger engine?

I saw in another post on the subject some info on the meadows engines, being 6cyl and 88-90hp. That sounds weak to me for the weight. I know the transmission does a lot of the work changing HP to torque so I guess it wasn't as fast as a carrier? I thought it would probably have done 60kmh like a carrier/T16?