Airforce wings

Dave Block · #1 20-07-06, 20:50

I had such good response to my previous question that I've decided to risk 'going to the well once too often'

Can anyone ID these wings? Are they even from RCAF? Someone suggested they might be South African in origin.

TIA, Dave

sapper740 · #2 21-07-06, 00:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Block
I had such good response to my previous question that I've decided to risk 'going to the well once too often'
Can anyone ID these wings? Are they even from RCAF? Someone suggested they might be South African in origin.

TIA, Dave

Short answer...I'm not sure. But here is what I think they are and why. They are not a national air force patch as those have the country below the eagle....or albatross! (I'll get into that later) With no nationality on the patch, that means it is most likely a qualification badge. Everybody agree with me so far? The fact that the bird is on a black background points to the Navy. I know that back in WWI officers of the Royal Navy Air Service wore an eagle/albatross patch on their sleeve above their rank, so my guess: R.N.A.S. or R.C.N.A.S. arm patch. I don't think its S.A.A.F. because all the S.A.A.F. patches I've seen were irregular and roughly followed the outline of the eagle so the patch wasn't rectangular.

So, is it an Eagle or an Albatross? Naval air service types wouldn't accept a land-locked bird as a symbol so they have steadfastedly maintained that the bird on the patch is an Albatross. However, here is the official description of the RCAF patch, which was copied from the RAF patch as approved by H.M. the King on Jan. 1943:

“an eagle volant affronte, the head lowered and to the sinister.”

Hope this info helps.

CHIMO

Dave Block · #3 21-07-06, 00:47

These were in the same batch of goodies, the original recipient is unknown but obviously Naval. They were going to be thrown out but I volunteered to give them a good home (and show them some respect). Could there possibly be some connection? Thanks for your insight, Derek. Maybe I can find something here to stump you yet.

Cheers, Dave

sapper740 · #4 21-07-06, 04:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Block
These were in the same batch of goodies, the original recipient is unknown but obviously Naval. They were going to be thrown out but I volunteered to give them a good home (and show them some respect). Could there possibly be some connection? Thanks for your insight, Derek. Maybe I can find something here to stump you yet.

Cheers, Dave

Fairly representative group of medals; 39-45 Star, Atlantic Star, Italy Star, Defence Medal, 39-45 War Medal, and C.V.S.M. (Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, with overseas clasp, also known as the Spam medal or E.B.G.O. for Every Bastard's Got One! (hope I got them right, I'm working from memory!) The Atlantic Star increases the possibility of the original owner of these medals to have been Navy, which goes along with what we've been discussing. Too bad you don't know more about the original owner, any Naval Air Service type who served in the Atlantic, especially with a France and Germany clasp, would certainly have some stories to tell!

CHIMO!

Ooops, just rechecked your pic, got the last two in the wrong order!

Dave Block · #5 21-07-06, 05:27

but there is no Italy Star. It's very definitely a Pacific Star, how many combatants would be eligible for both Atlantic and Pacific? Note the Atlantic Star has the 'France and Germany' clasp. From the same batch, here's an even sadder example. The '1914-1918' medal is stamped 'Pte.J.M.McIlroy' on the edge. It would appear that he served in some capacity in both wars (I guess someone thought the 'Great War' ribbon looked pretty), any suggestions on how I might trace him or, at least, honour his memory? Very sad that people who served can be discarded like so much trash.

Thanks, Dave

Bill Alexander · #6 21-07-06, 14:31

Hello Dave, the titles that you have are "nationality" titles for the Royal Air Force. The RAF did not feel the need for the nationality to be listed below for the "mother" nation.
The titles that Derek is referring to were the eagle / albatross with the nations name embroidered below. These titles were made in part for the aircrew and groundcrew training in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. (BCATP).
This plan led to thousands of Commonwealth airmen coming to Canada to be trained for the airforce. Because there were so many nationalities, there was a need to identify the airman's country of origin. Once trained, these airmen either went back to their national airforce (RCAF, RAAF, RAF, etc).
I have had several tunics with the type of patches you show. They were either RAF or RCAF.
In reference to your medal question, it is unusual but not impossible to have both the Pacific Star and the Atlantic Star. They represent operational service in both theatres of war. This would not be unusual for navy service, and some airforce service. It is scarce for army service. (I am speaking of Canadian forces here.)

Bill Alexander · #7 21-07-06, 14:35

Dave, further question. What is the full naming on the medals? The silver war medal and the victory medal should both be named with the recipients rank, name, unit, and service number. With that information you can research the individual. (Over 1,000,000 pairs/sets of medals were issued by the British and Empire forces in WW1).

Darrell Zinck · #8 21-07-06, 15:56

Hi Dave and Bill

Just to let you know that no medal in the first group shown should be named as Canadians did not name those ones in WW2. South Africans did but the presence of the CVSM pretty much rules out them being SA.

In the second group of medals you show the British War Medal from WW1 (Left side of pic has the incorrect ribbon. The centre medal appears to be a WW2 39-45 War Medal in silver (means Cdn issue) which should be un-named and the one on the safety pin is a WW1 Victory Medal. The first and third should be named on the edge and if I understand your post, they are both to the same man? Pte JM McIlroy. What unit is on the edges?

His WW1 attestation paper can be found online if you can provide the service number on those WW1 medals. Also with that number a copy of his complete WW1 service file can be bought from from Ottawa if you like. This is a fine way to preserve the memory of the man.

regards
Darrell

Bill Alexander · #9 21-07-06, 16:01

Darrel, One small correction. Canadian WW2 issue medals were not named officially. However, some Merchant Marine sailors received named medals, and a few RCMP also received named medals. (I think it was the group on the St Roch.)
I should have been clearer in my post regarding the named war medals and the incorrect ribbon.

sapper740 · #10 22-07-06, 00:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Block
I had such good response to my previous question that I've decided to risk 'going to the well once too often'
Can anyone ID these wings? Are they even from RCAF? Someone suggested they might be South African in origin.

TIA, Dave

Did a little more research on these patches and Bill is absolutely right, these are RAF "nationality" patches. There were two types of patches, curved and rectangular. The curved patches generally had a grey/blue background while the rectangular patch generally had a black background. British Airmen serving in Canada did eventually start wearing a "GT. BRITAIN" title below the patch.

Dave Block · #11 22-07-06, 02:20

Yes, both medals are edge-stamped 'M2-102075 Pte.J.A.McIlroy A.S.C.' (Army Service Corps?) Could this mean he served in The British Army in WWI & emigrated to Canada post 1918? I think there's a heraldry shop on Yonge St.in Toronto so I should be able to replace the missing/incorrect ribbons in any case.

As for the RAF shoulder wings, could these be worn on an RCAF tunic with the 'CANADA' title as a separate patch above them? The reason I ask is there is an 'RCAF' breast-pocket wing included in this collection and I wondered if they could be related, so to speak. I hope I haven't muddied the water here, I have no reason to believe there is any connection between the WW1 awards & the WWII awards/wings.

My thanks to everyone for their insights, I've learned a lot!

Cheers, Dave

Darrell Zinck · #12 22-07-06, 18:20

Hi Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Block
Yes, both medals are edge-stamped 'M2-102075 Pte.J.A.McIlroy A.S.C.' (Army Service Corps?) Could this mean he served in The British Army in WWI & emigrated to Canada post 1918?...

Yes, the number and unit are not Canadian. If you're after correct ribbons then you'll need 6 inches to swing-mount them or 8 inches to court-mount them. If that shop charges you more than 30-50 cents an inch, you're being hosed. Unfortunately you'll only be getting new reproduction of the original style ribbon but unless you're a purist, that'll do you fine. Original will be more $$ and much harder to locate. Let me know if I can help.

Bill

You are correct in that the MN and RCMP did have named medals. I often forget about non-Military forces and their entitlements but as I am Military myself.................

And I should have been more clear that during WW2 it was only the Service or Campaign medals to Military members that were un-named. All Gallantry and Orders were either named or dated.

regards
Darrell

Dave Block · #13 22-07-06, 19:51

There's a militaria show coming up soon in my area, I'll have a look for some ribbons there too. I forgot to ask, do you think the 1939-1945 medal even belongs with the other two? I've been trying to research Pte. McIlroy on some UK sites but no joy so far.

Cheers, Dave

Bill Alexander · #14 22-07-06, 20:18

Hello Dave, The 39-45 War Medal may have been associated with the WW1 pair. There were many WW1 veterans that re-enlisted in the forces during the Second World War.
Try posting your fellow on the Great War Forum . This forum specializes in British and Imperial issues for WW1. It should provide some answers.

Doug Knight · #15 23-07-06, 15:59

Hi

Search on archivia net for McIlroy at http://www.collectionscanada.ca/arch...010602_e.html.
this will bring up a list of McIlroy that served in WW1 in the Canadian Army. There are a number of J's but no JM. Clicking on the icon in the record brings up the attestation papers.

Good hunting.

Doug Knight

Dave Block · #16 23-07-06, 16:38

I posted on the Great War forum as suggested and discovered that he was John M.McIlroy. He was indeed in the Army Service Corps and the 'M2' prefix on his number indicates he was a mechanical transport driver. I'll get the ribbons fixed & pick up an appropriate ASC cap badge at the next militaria show.

Cheers, Dave

SteveF · #17 28-07-06, 03:24

Just have to point out that those members of the RCAF that were stationed in Canada during WW2 wore the same style shoulder badges as those shown with the dark background and only wore the "Canada" title while serving overseas. That being said, the construction of the top two badges being shown does not seem to match those on RCAF tunics that I have / have seen, but the bottom one does indeed look very similar to those on one of my tunics.
As for whether or not the birds are eagles or albatrosses... according to the current Canadian airforce the birds are, and have always been, eagles. There are some interesting theories on how the albatross got involved but from day one the bird was intended to represent an eagle (rather poorly done IMO). For some reason even though it is officially an eagle there are still people arguing that it is an albatross. Not sure why that is.