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fox info needed
We just recieved a Fox and an Otter for our ww2 collection, apx 160 pieces mostly US. I am going to restore it but I don't know much about them. The car is fairly complete but needs the outside storage boxs and some misc. interior parts. There is a triangle about 2 inches wide welded on the front plate, any ideas? What I realy need is a paint color and code for it.
ser #2844609293 built in April 23, 1942, Hamilton Bridge model#ac contract # 7427, serial#3A, paint OA76 |
#2
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Roger, where the hell did they come from??!! Hell, we have hardly any up here, and they were MADE here! Info please sir....
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SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support |
#3
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Re: fox info needed
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Welcome abord.. Wow!!! Sounds like you have some great iron..Starting with the Fox and the OTTer.. I have manuals available for lots of Military vehic;les,some very rare ones.. Let me know off line if you need manuals.. #14: 200 pages GENERAL MOTORS CANADA, ILLUST. PARTS LIST. ARMOURED CAR, CANADIAN, GM Mark 1 (Fox 1) MOD. A.C. Chassis 8446 (Feb.'43) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #15: 290 pages NEW CAR, ARMOURED, CANADIAN GM Mark 1. (Fox) Operation, Maintenance and Repair. (Feb.'43) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #16: 168 pages CRAC-02 GM CANADA, ILLUST. PARTS LIST, CAR, LIGHT RECONNAISSANCE, CANADIAN, Mark 1 (Otter 1), Mod. RAC Chassis 8447 (Jan.'43) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #17: 320 pages. NEW RAC-C1, LIGHT RECON CANADIAN CMP GM Mark I, II (R.A.C.) Operation, Maintenance and Repair. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.dana-nield.com/d3/blair/H...8/Default.aspx Just click on the "Manuals" header for list of manuals. Post some pix on MLU forum.. We all want to see what you have..
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk: |
#4
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Contact me if you like
I, and a few other gentlemen I know, have a little information on these.
The triangle on the front plate appears on all 4 of the known Fox that remained in Canada (the 5th was repatriated recently). One even had the words "THIN ROOF HULL" welded into the side of the turret. I think these marks relate to hulls which failed a pentration or other test. These were marked so nobody would mistake them and send them into combat. It is not an A Squardron mark despite what is painted on front of the Shilo Fox (below). I have the fenders and some of the bins that came off my Fox. They are poor but would provide a good pattern. They're available if you want them. Bruce |
#5
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Our national treasure:
The Canadian War Museum Fox. Same triangle on the front.
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#6
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What the heck
Canadian War Museum Otter:
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#7
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FOX
I'm with Bruce on the triangle - I heard that it's not BP steel at all - they were made for training.
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Charles Fitton Maryhill On., Canada too many carriers too many rovers not enough time. (and now a BSA...) (and now a Triumph TRW...) |
#8
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It's armoured!!
Charlie, I can attest to the fact my Fox (with a triangle) is armoured. It will shred a drill bit or any other device you set to work on it.
Just below the triangle is a small dimple that looks like the beginning of a torch cut. I think this was part of a test to determine if the armour was acceptable. They would heat a section for a period of time, and if it melted or softened too much, it was rejected. I can't say if this was done to the plate before it was assembled into a hull (smart) or after (bumb). Mine looks like it stated to cut, so think it failed and got the triangle. A similar test was done on cariers. In several places you'll find an oval about the size of a quarter. In the middle is a 1/8" depression. This was where they heated and then stuck a rod in. If it didn't go through, the armour passed. |
#9
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Dimples In Armour
Hi all
My understanding is that here in Australia a standard armour test was to fire a .303 into it and if it failed to penetrate it was deemed OK. I have seen many Carriers with these dimples. It would be interesting to know if this was fact or another urban legend. Bob |
#10
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Carrier urban legends?
It can't be. I heard this story from a friend who knew somebody who's father worked in the plant where they did this testing.
Actually, I did speak with an old guy who worked in the place where they straightened the armour for carriers creating all those 1" dash marks. |
#11
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That 303 rumour was always floating around here, but I believe it is not likely. The dimples on my side armour are so evenly spaced that I thought it was part of the punching or straightening process. I guess I should try a .303 on a scrap piece of armour and see what it would really do.
I took a carrier front armour to a machine gun shoot a few years back. The only gun that would penetrate the front armour was the .55 boyes, and there was one small arms bullet (likely an AK round) which passes through near an edge. I suspect that the plates were torch cut and this may have weakened the first 1/2" of the armour. |
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DATA PLATES
Thanks for the Otter serial # data which I have added to my Canadian Chevrolet database. Is there a photo available of the GM of Canada plate with serial/engine number on it please as I have never seen one myself.
The Canadian contract I think is [C.D.]L.V. 7421. Of course the British Ministry of Supply acquired a large number. |
#13
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fox, otter info
thanks for the responce
the otter ser # is 2844714611. I pulled the fox in the shop today and removed the turret (it was not fastened down). I only have a parts book to look at so I think I need the upper bearing race,the brass segments and the retaining clips for it. also a few parts for the hand crank system. I am also in need of a couple of door key/handles for the fox and the otter.any one with extra parts please contact me if you would please. I would like to know how many of each were made and how many are known to exist today |
#14
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Otters and Fox
(can't have one without the other, right James-the-Lucky?)
Roger, there were 1761 Otters and 1506 Fox built. For both, the hulls were built by Hamilton Bridge (Hamilton, Ontario) and the chassis by General Motors of Canada in Oshawa, Ontario. To the best of my knowledge, there are (after your acquisition) 4 Fox and 3 Otters remaining in Canada. Your new vehicles are the only ones in the United States I believe (please correct me?). David, the infomation on this Fox is: AC-Mk 1 Hull 003A 2844600923 Engine 27082253 LV. 1557 July 12/43 |
#15
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Thanks!
Quote:
These are my known Fox contracts: C.D.L.V. 125 C.D.L.V. 227 C.D.L.V. 539 C.D.L.V. 640 C.D.L.V. 1557 C.D.L.V. 472 UK: S/M 1077 Aust.: 278 CA 652 including Rhinos and Otter contracts: C.D.L.V. 127 C.D.L.V. 225 C.D.L.V. 556 C.D.L.V. 1594 C.D.L.V. 7421/ U.K.: S/M – 2424 including CAPLADs BRITISH CONTRACTS: CENSUS NUMBER F ? >? SM 1077 FOX 1 ARMOURED CAR 1942-3 CENSUS NUMBER F 210280 > E.g. F 210158 SM 2424 OTTER 1 RECONNAISANCE CAR 1942 Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 15-10-05 at 18:52. |
#16
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Serial numbers
David:
Here is the data plate information on my toy: Chassis Model AC-1 (note Roger Condron's says "AC.MK 1") HULL 2A (Roger's is a "HULL 003A". Why? Fire suppression? Turret ring differences?, Desert equipment? Bin replaced by spare tire on the right side? No provision for the Lakeman mount? And the most recently discovered difference, brass vs. cast iron gun mounts?) Chassis Serial 2844601635 Engine Serial 27051136 Order No. LV. 1557 Date of Mfg. OCT. 8/43 Census number C.F. 160464 The Hamilton Bridge Company Ltd. plate says its a Model AC, Contract 7472, Serial 2A (which matches the "HULL 2A" on the General Motor's plate), and Paint OA76 which must refer to Khaki No.3 on the outside and/or white on the inside. My Fox has the later bolted turret ring, no fire suppression, is desert equipped, and has brass MG mounts...oh, and that pesky triangle. |
#17
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Thanks again!
Thank you...it seems that the Fox was 'AC-1' or 'AC Mk1', etc. and the Otter 'RAC-1' etc. although query if there were also plates or whatever with 'RAC Mk 1'?
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How many were built?
I have been asked how many were built. This is my data so far:
FOX: 1,506 BUILT 1942/3 RHINO: Quote:
CAPLADS: 2 STAGHOUND TE17 SERIES: 3,801? |
#19
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David
Here is some more data for the records. My Otter has census number CM 4647062, the Chassis is a donor from another Otter serial 2844709330. Sorry all the rest of the data plates are long gone. Now for the Fox Chassis serial 3844617385 Engine serial 270323353 Order LV.1557 Date Dec 2/43 Contract 7427 Paint AO76 Hull 1112 I hope this helps. James |
#20
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Way back then...
Otter, Fox, MB's and a C8 11 cab in the Elliot Bros. yard, 1978. Not for sale, but the price on the armour was $3000 each.
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#21
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My return visit (with $3000 in hand) in 1980 found them in much the same shape, but up to $5000 each. Otter 56-203 (28444714637)
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#22
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and Fox
Fox 68-971 (28446609293) with the welded "THIN ROOF HULL" on the turret. Still in the yard were Fox 69-579 (2844601635), Fox 53-595 (2844616009) and Otter 56-204 (2844714611). Ask me how I know?
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#23
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Why?
Because somewhere in the office of the Elliot Bros. was this shipping slip from the Crown Assets Disposal Corporation. In mid January 1958, 5 Canadian armoured cars made their way from Haggersville in South Western Ontario to a wrecking yard near Port Hope. Two (Otter 2844714611 and Fox 28444609293) were selected by Don and George Elliot for fixing up. Soon thereafter, the remaining Otter was traded to a private owner in Quebec for a DUKW. Fox 2844601635 was bought by Les Fisher (and later me for a little more that $5000). Just recently, Dirk Leegwater bought Fox 28444616009 which he recently sold.
(Edited by moderator: click on image for a large size scan) |
#24
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Present
Which brings me to the present. With the kind permission of Roger Condron, who is now in posession of the last Elliot Fox and Otter, here is a picture of Fox 284469293 (the same one in the black and white 1978 picture) in it's new home in Utah.
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#25
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1943?
James. thanks for the data..is that '1943 Model' prefix correct please as I have yet to find any with the '3' prefix?
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#26
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Re: Dimples In Armour
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#27
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Re: Re: Dimples In Armour
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Richard |
#28
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Re: fox, otter info
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Hope this helps, Hanno |
#29
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Hi David
Yes it definately is the 1943 prefix. James |
#30
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Thanks!
Wonder if there were any Otters with 38447XXX serials?
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