Ice Dams on My Roof - Help!!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

With this unprecendented snowfall, coupled with changeable weather, I'm experiencing a real pain-in-the-ass situation with part of this house we bought last August. On one portion, that sticking out in front of the main structure, which includes an insulated garage, an office and a utility room, snow on the roof has melted to form thick ice dams along each eave. The ice has now crawled back underneath the shingles and is leaking through into the interior walls, coming out as water around windows and by the baseboards. So far no major damage, but I need to find a way to get rid of this ice before it does any major damage - I DON'T want to be replacing drywall and broadloom!

In retrospect, it's probably caused by inadequate insulation in the ceiling, which I can fix, but I can't put up any roof heaters while I have 6 inches of ice along the eaves. How can I get rid of this ice without destroying the existing roof?

Needless to say, I'm so goddam mad at the previous owner I could spit. Thanks, asshole, for your consideration.

Gotta fix this before I end up with a major reno job (for major bucks) this spring... any bright ideas?

Thanks guys.

Geoff

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Jif


The ice dams occur when the snow on your roof gets too deep and acts as insulation from the heat leakage that would normally pass through your roof...
What is happening is the heat leakage is melting the snow on your roof and forming puddles of water under the snow...The ice dams occur on the over hangs because they remain frozen while the escaping heat warms the roof farther up torwards the peak...
under the snow...and puddles of water form under the snow ,but can't run off the roof because of the ice dams..and the water then backs up under the shingles..
Solution at this point.....Remove the snow....end of problem...Keep it to a couple of inches...max that will keep the roof frozen...
Long term soultion...
Install styrofoam vents between rafters and roof where the outside wall meets the roof...This gives the outside air a path and the air circulating from the sofits to the upper roof vents and keeps the roof frozen...Insulate your atic insuring that the insulation does NOT touch the upper roof....
If it does ,hot spots occur at times such as these and water will gather under the snow....
Solution #2 install roof heaters in a progressive V pattern along your roof so that it so that the heaters extend an inch over the edge of the roof and a foot back from where the outer wall meets the roof...normally 3' back from the roof edge..
Plug them in every couple of days to cut the ice dam...You would be suprized at the water that comes off the roof when the heaters have been on for an hour or two..Gallons....!!!
Been there ..done that...
Get the snow off as fast as you can for now..that will stop the leaking....
Good job for the young lad and the empress..as you point out the areas to be cleaned off using your long necked brown pointer from the forward Ob.post,located 50' back in the cab of your half ton....

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

That was as good an explanation as I've gotten from anyone yet! Haven't had to deal with this before, so it's a bit of a mystery to me. I was going to go up on the roof to shovel/chip this morning, but the temperature's gone from +3 yesterday to -15 right now, without the windchill!

At least when it's cold, it doesn't leak, but I'll have to instruct the young 'uns in the fine art of water redirection and evacuation if it warms up while I'm in Toronto this week. Bloody great pain in the arse this is... :

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Thats right. Up 'ye get on the roof. Do have Julia with the polaroid to get a few snaps, eh what? And drill her on the correct IA should you slip... "911...911"

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Jif...
Did I just hear Pinkey comitting the No.1 "No-No"..Volunteering...??
Once you remove the snow ,which provides the insulation to trap the heat under the roof,the water won't form...so you will be safe from water leakage ,untill the snow builds up again...Don't worry about the ice dam....The ice dam dosent matter if there is no water to trap......Remove the snow and the leaking will stop...
A smack with the shovel or the back of an ax will shatter the ice dam along the edge of the roof...
If it rains before the ice dam melts naturally ,it will back up water under the shingles..
Obviously there is no leaks in the roof when it rains,so there is not a shingle problem,just a ventilation and insulation problem..

[Stewart Loy]

Geoff,

I have a friend who is a contractor - and cautions folks against getting up on the roof in the spring and walloping the roof with a fire axe, shovel, or similar tool.

His contention is that, if you don't fall and kill yourself, you will do damage to the shingles - then you will have a BIG problem - and one that lasts all year long. In fact, when he sees people pounding the crap out of their roofs with such tools, he often drops off a business card - and replaces the shingles the next summer for them.

He suggests leaving it alone until spring, then installing the heaters on the outside ( when they are on sale ), and doing the insulation thing.


Stewart
Fighting The Dam Ice in Beachville
( Sorry - "Ice Dam" )

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Hi Stew..
Your contractor buddy is right.....
BUT and I repeat my original statement...

Quote.."A smack with the shovel or the back of an ax will shatter the ice dam along the edge of the roof..."
You notice I said....The Ice Dam....Back edge....etc...
You don't Chop with the pointy sharp edge...That is for opening beer cans and stuff..
And the edge of the roof.....Won't hurt the shingles farther back..
And with two feet of snow on the roof,a scoop or plastic push shovel is usually used leaving a few inches of snow on the roof to protect the shingles....
As for falling off...that is where the empress will have to do a short course on the jump tower to learn the correct landing proceedure....
Again..remove the snow ,by what ever means and the leaking will stop ..Next spring install the heaters insuring they extend over the roof edge at least an inch ...preferally two or three to insure a passage way for the melting water out over the roof edge...
The battle continues....

[Keith Webb]

And a pleasant Autumn day it is here in Melbourne... we find a top temp of around 27 is very effective for the prevention of ice dams...
In fact yours is the first I've ever heard of!
Perhaps you Canucks should consider emigrating - not only do we not have ice dams but we also have far more CMPs here!
PS sorry to hear of your troubles, Jif!

Now now boys!!! Play NICE!

And Geoff?????....that tongue may need
a little pepper, eh???

don't fall off the roof!

[Phil Waterman]

Personally I think a chainsaw is the way to attack the ice and snow build up. After the plow left a five foot tall pile of snow 30 inches from the back door which rain then sub zero temperatures had converted to solid ice, the only way I could move it was to cut it up into 2x2x2 foot blocks with a chain saw. Wife says I should take up ice sculpture, how about a life size ice HUP.


One our MV club long term members is on the Concord,NH fire and rescue he said that they have been having a large-large number of calls for falls from the roof while shoveling or working on ice dams.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Geoff

Been there done that.... and will need to do it this Saturday on the Norht side of my house.

Connect your garden hose to the laundy tap in your basement.... either directly to the Hot water outlet for the washer... or better still ... the laundry tub outlet if threaded..... run the hose outside and melt the sucker off the roof.

To prevent the initial water flow back under the dam.....melt some downward channels first.... afetr 30 minutes at 50% mix of cold hot you will runout of warm water...... you can continue at a slower pace... tylical water temp. at 55F. or have beer and come back at it in 2 hours and repeat the process. In high to reach areas yuo can do it from the ground just peeing up there with the hose.

It might be wise to melt some fo the ice in the rain gutters first.....

My five cents worth... from the guys who previously ripped some shingles off his roof after the ice storm..... old and wiser...and lazy!!!

Carefull on the roof......

[Peter Nenadovich]

Hello,

I'm pleased that my first posting to the new forum covers an area with which I am woefully familiar. I agree with the notion of clearing off the snow - it's the main problem. Even clearing it four or five feet back from the edge is a help. Prior to reading the post regarding the use of hot water (brilliant), I was going to suggest just chipping a few vee-shaped gaps in the ice damn. This will at least allow some run-off if it rains in the next few days. I've experienced heavy rain on ice-damned eaves and I assure you it's not pretty. I have vowed that next year I shall purchase a "roof-rake" for the snow build-up - as soon as Canadian Tire puts out its winter stuff - which I believe is actually July 2nd...


Now if only I could buy a CMP or Carrier then I could really interact on this forum... great new format by the way.

[Snowtractor]

Manual Labour is in town and I hear you're going to use him :-)
2 pound hammer and like appilcation of force will shatter the ice while still cold. If you wait too long and it warms the ice will Toughen become pliable near 0 degrees and above. You should be able to do it all from a ladder , it is eaves anyway, just ensure the ladder sticks at least 4 feet above the eave edge.
Also you can remove all the snow as in Alex's excellent suggestion and get a snow rake to do it from ground level from CANUCK WHEEL.
Hot water on cold roof...hmmm rapid expansion cracking delamination of roofing material and possible plywood underneath...I don't suggest it, but take pics if you do :-).
Lastly if you go up the tie a rope over the roof to a NON MOVING article haevy enough to support you. Keep the freeplay short to reduce shock loads and taunt nearer the eave edge.
Just a note I have to clean ice off my roof where the kitchen fan and bathroom fan exit under 2 feet of snow twice a winter. In 10 years there has been no damage to my roof , but no shovelling sideways or up...PERIOD ! only down and bang with a blunt object, middle managers make good bangers or back side of axes or 2 pound sledges.
Sean

Thinking back almost 20 years to when I was swinging a hammer and cutting holes in roofs, installing flashing etc (in London even)...I'll not offer any advice without seeing what the problem is.

But, I will caution you on one thing. I, personally have no fear of heights, but one thing that seems to be a law in the roofing community is that everyone falls at least once. The only thing that changes is the height that the person falls from, but everyone I've ever known working up high has fallen. For me it was only 10 feet, but sonemone I know fell 20 feet and was laid up for a year. An ex-para guy who kept going for a rip cord that wasn't there as he plummetted


So be very careful and if you don't know what you're doing on a ladder then take extra special care.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Alexander Borgia
...So be very careful and if you don't know what you're doing on a ladder then take extra special care.

Appreciate your comments, Alexander. I spent several years climbing telephone poles in all weather to hang drops and make cross-connects, so I'm well aware of standard operating procedures! The fact is moot, though, as I don't have a ladder of sufficient length to get onto the roof from the eave side (my only access is a bedroom window right above the peak).

I've called and left a message for a fellow advertising ice dam removal through the Home Depot Contractors setup... it'll be interesting to hear what HIS procedures are. Thanks to you fellows, I know the right questions to ask.

I'll keep you posted.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Well, the guy I spoke to yesterday is coming over this morning to do what he can... but outside right now, it's unbelieveable! It's +7 right now, feels like +15 out in the sun! Gawd, we've waited SO long for this!!

Funny thing is, my eaves are dripping like mad, but nothing's leaking into the house right now! The heat from the sun must be so good that the water is flowing down, not refreezing on the eaves and crawling underneath the shingles. Of course, if it gets nasty out again...

...but never mind that! Excuse me while I go out and suck up some more sun for a few minutes...

[Mark W. Tonner]

So Geoff;

Was he able to fix or recommend a fix for the Ice Dam problem or are the "Dam-Busters" Squadron going to have to be re-activated to deal with the situation.

The last mentioned option will probably 'tick-off' the neighbours if it comes to that, to say nothing of what it will do to your property value :

Anyways, hope all is well.

Cheers

[Bob Potter]

How about a remote control 617 Squadron Lancaster with Barnes Wallis bomb? The cat might not be amused but the neighbors might. Or is that the other way about?

Speaking of which, how is that grey-striped tiger?

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Dear Geoff - having just returned from Corowa I missed this discussion when it started. The support and sympathy you have received is amazing. Just to make you feel better we also encountered an ice problem on our return home.

We had to defrost our refrigerator.

And take no notice of Keith's barbs, (I just spent several days with him around), you can't help living in the land of the polar bears. Chin up, us Aussies will keep sending you warm messages.

Bob