Carrier Track Variations

[Lynn Eades]

Here I hope we can gather in one thread the various different track types, details, interchange abilities etc.
Basically all of the Allied carriers of WWII ran a similar style of track, An S.G. (malleable) iron track link with a hardened steel pin of 7/16" dia. The pitch was the same for all types, but it was not all interchangeable.
The Pre Universal Carriers, The British and Canadian Universals, the Loyds and the U.S.A built T16 all ran the narrow bogie wheels and track with the close spaced track guide horns.
In the other camp originating with the British built Vickers Light Tank Mark VIB was a track laying down the same foot print but with wider rubber and wider spaced track horns. This type of track was the spec for all of the Australian carriers, (New Zealand as well) and the later Canadian Windsor carrier.
The pluses and minuses of each type are not discussed much because we run that which our carriers came out with. I believe that the reason why they went wider on the V.L.T. was about stability and reliability and I suspect that the possibilty that all might change to the wide rubber was at least a momentary consideration. I digress.
The number of track links fitted to each different model carrier varies.They start off with the numbers below but as they wear, links are removed.
The standardised pre Universals, the British and Canadian carriers are all the same length and all were new with 168 links on each side.
The Australian LP2 and LP2A Has 176 links each side.
The Loyd has 187 each side
Someone else will need to post on the T16 and Windsor Carriers.

See below: the wide track was original to the V.L.T. Mk.VIA, not the Mk VIB.

Starting at the bottom end, Here are extracts from an Australian manual.

[Lynn Eades]

Here we have a few pictures showing on the left Australian lead plug track with the wide horns. On the right, Std British or Canadian track. Included is the long skinny punch for chasing out a track pin from the small hole, and the short fat punch for setting in place the lead plug (38 wad cutters?)
Note that one Aust. link is pinned onto the "common" (Brit/Can) track just to show their common details.

[Lynn Eades]

Im waiting now for the enlightened among us to post up details from the T16 and the Windsor.
I thought this was interesting and may help some people.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Here I hope we can gather in one thread the various different track types, ......

Basically all of the Allied carriers of WWII ran a similar style of track,......

As this thread will likely become a reference compendium that people will keep coming back to to ID some component of track, would it be stretching the friendship to include the Horstman suspension and track of the German Maultier, pieces of which turn up from time to time in Europe and are confused with carrier components?

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=20110

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...d.php?p=148181

[tankbarrell]

T16 is 173 or 174 per track, the parts list is contradictory and the manual doesn't state a quantity.

Windsor is 195 per track.

[Lynn Eades]

I have not yet arrived at step one, Mr Miyagi. I have no knowledge what so ever, of what you speak.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

T16 is 173 or 174 per track, the parts list is contradictory and the manual doesn't state a quantity.
Windsor is 195 per track.

T16 was produced in two lengths, the standard first model parts list showing the track link count, type and part numbers displayed in the image below.

The carrier that eventually became known as the Windsor carrier was produced with two track types. The first version used standard carrier track links and bogie wheels, the second version used wider bogie wheels, track adjuster wheel and return rollers, with track links that had a correspondingly wider space between the track horns. Guide horns, if you will, Grasshopper... I cannot use “tongues”.

[Lynn Eades]

So as I see it, (so far) a joining track pin, (the one with split pin hole and head) will work in every kind of track (even in the Aust. lead plug track (if it was cut) because apart from the two horn widths(and the two corresponding rubber widths) they are basically speced the same.


BTW. from a British "Manual of Driving and Maintenance for Mechanical Vehicles (tracked) 1939" the "horns" are called "tongues".

Now what about this Swiss track?

[David Herbert]

Lynn,

The Australian lead plug track with the blind end with the small hole would have to be drilled out to fit a conventional pin. If you just shortened the pin it would not be retained.

I have never seen British (or any) books referring to "tongues" on track. I think this must be a pre war thing as WW2 books use the words horns or guides. I expect that someone will prove me wrong now !

We now need someone to post pictures of Swiss and WW2 German Maultier track.

David

[Perry Kitson]

I recall T16 track pins being 1/8" or 3/16" shorter than Canadian UC track pins. I had purchased some from a US collector to use to replace some broken ones on my MK II. Too short to use.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

We now need someone to post pictures of ... WW2 German Maultier track.

Hi David, I recall studying that Maultier wheel with you at Beltring many years ago (see the links Tony psted above). The Germans only patterned the Maultier suspension on the Carden-Lloyd system, but manufactured the components themselves which differed in size and detail. The Maultier track was the same track as on the German Panzer 1 tank.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's a nice picture of the bogie wheels & tracks on a Ford Maultier (source).

(source)

[David Herbert]

Hanno,

Good grief ! Your memory is better than mine. As you say, Pz1 track.

Keep well and best wishes to the family. David

[James P]

Here is a good reference source for German tracks, wheels. German road wheels for tracked vehicle where big on stamped/welded and riveting in there construction, cast road wheels not so much.

http://www.fahrzeuge-der-wehrmacht.de/

[Lynn Eades]

Do you still have one Perry, that you can measure?

[Perry Kitson]

Lynn, I am no longer in possession of the pins, but I might be able to coerce the fellow who has them to take a few measurements.

Perry

[rob love]

I have plenty of the shorter pins, and a few of the normal ones. I'll get a shot of them after supper and post it.

[BCA]

The so-called Swiss track pins are too short to use in normal track pads. I suspect the Swiss modified the normal track pads by trimming them narrower (why would they do that? No idea.) and producing appropriately shorter pins. These short pins were abundant in USA and very likely came from Southeastern Equipment in Augusta Georgia who sold many ex-Swiss T16s in the 1970’s to early 1980’s. We need someone to inspect their ex-Swiss T16 and see if the track pads are modified Original T16 and Canadian Carriers use the same length of track pin.

[rob love]

We have a Swiss T-16 at the shop. I will drop in there today and measure it. I'll also bring in a couple pins (short and long) and compare.

[Mike Cecil]

As Lynn has pointed out, Australian carriers used track derived from the Vickers light tank Mk.VIA, which had different dimensions to British etc carrier track.

As an aside, this difference caused some logistical problems early in the war when the Brits placed an order for carrier track manufactured in Australia, and received Aust track that didn't fit the Brit carrier. Ooops.

Subsequent overseas orders for track link placed in Australia resulted in the Australian production of British specification track, pins, plugs, sprockets, and suspension arms which were sent to both the UK and ME in large quantities. A mix up/lack of information at the production stage resulted in much of this track being condemned by the Brits due to breakages. It was then re-supplied to the correct specifications and dispatched overseas to ME and UK.

The main Aust manufacturer of track, etc to Brit specifications was H.V. McKay.

So Australian industry was manufacturing both types of tracks, etc: Aust track for LP carriers, and Brit track for Brit carriers. The Aust armies (AMF and AIF) were operating carriers of both origins, so needed spares to suit. The supply chain problem was thus much more complicated than it needed to be by having to maintain two parallel supply lines for carrier spares, and was dependent upon units, when ordering spares, to specify exactly which type of carrier spare was required. Plenty of room for stuff ups, wasted time and resources.

Mike

[rob love]

So I am at the shop now for a short visit (Covid-19 restrictions...we aren't supposed to be at work) and the Swiss track link measures 9" wide, vice the 9-1/2 in width of the UC carrier in front of it. Some of the links have CWC cast into them, along with a TL2948 number on the other side. I have a photo of one links where the pin has crept out. No bushing in the track link that I can see, so it is not like they rebuilt the track.
There are a number of other casting marks that I will get at another time. I don't want too overstay my welcome on the base.

[Lynn Eades]

Thank you all. How do I put this?
Broad statement: (because the pitch and pin sizes are universal)

"Basically all U.C. track is the same". However:

There are two areas where it varies:

1. The two sizes of track in relation to the width between the "horns" or "tongues" (wide or narrow bogie wheels)

2. The pin and how it is located. The lead plug Australian track has a "stop" at the inner end (see earlier post) this stops the pin moving on through. Once fitted in the track links, a lead plug (like a .38" wad cutter) is fitted and punched. This spreads into a groove in the outer hole, which contains the pin in service.
Obviously this pin is shorter (than a pin with a head and a split pin hole)

My question about the Swiss pin is "What form do they take?"
Are they the same as the Aust. lead plug pin? (a straight, plain pin with no head)

With Australian track, a small drilling exercise to remove the "stop" would allow the use of a Canadian or British track joining pin.
To put it another way: A Canadian (or British) link is 9.5" (241mm) wide (where the pin goes through) Is Swiss track narrower?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

To put it another way: A Canadian (or British) link is 9.5" (241mm) wide (where the pin goes through) Is Swiss track narrower?

If you read my post above, the Cdn that I measured today is 9.5, and the Swiss is 9"

[Perry Kitson]

The pins I had that were presumably for the modified Swiss track were cold headed on one end and drilled for a cotter pin on the other.
Interesting to see the collars that are used on the Swiss modified track, they look to be about 5/8" wide?

[Lynn Eades]

So, now we need an explanation of the difference between Swiss track and Modified Swiss track

[rob love]

I saw a few different casting letters and marks on these tracks that i have not seen on Ford track. Could it be the Swiss made their molds from existing Canadian or British track?

I have not knocked the pin end cap off the T-16 to see what holds it on. I assume underneath it is the track pins with the cotter pin hole that we procure from the US. I guess I could (and will) pop that one pin back through that has worked part way through and see what is in there.

When I get back to work, I'll get some better shots of the various cast marks on the swiss track.


Just guessing here, but could it be that the swiss wanted a better system of end caps than the British/Canadian track used. They may have narrowed the track to accommodate for the thicker end cap. There is not a lot of room to spare around the fenders...I have seen front fender skirts that show wear from the track rubbing on them.

[rob love]

Here are a couple of shots showing the shorter Swiss pin and a regular Cdn pin. The track link is the regular width Canadian type.

[Lynn Eades]

Thank you Rob.
So it looks like the Swiss shaved 1/4 inch off each end of the std track.
Those track pins would go well in Australia, I'd think. Just need to cut them down? (for the lead plug track)

As an aside. I read that in 1939 England, the track links were hardened to reduce wear and in the pin hardening process the ends of the pins were copper plated to prevent those parts of the pin from being affected by the hardening.

[rob love]

I had hoped to get enough of those pins to do a complete track, but the seller's price on them was something like $3 each in USD. The first batch I bought I got for a deal at the end of a show, and got 100 or so. I think I got another 60 at another show. So I have enough to repair one side of a track. My current track is well worn, but I have another set or two in the yard, so no rush to install these pins.

[Jack Geratic]

Will there be any discussion here about the bogie and sprocket dimensions, or would it require a separate thread?

[Lynn Eades]

Jack what do you need to know on the sprockets? It might be better to start a new thread.