#1
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Canadian tank crews small arms
What small arms were issued to Canadian tank crews during WW2, Korea and what weapons are current issue? Did it vary by vehicle? Did every crewman have a weapon?
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#2
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Tank crew were typically issued a SMG and/or a sidearm.
In WW2 the sten and thompson were popular as well as the 38 Webley or Inglis 9mm. I believe these carried into Korea as well. These items would have changed as the CF adopted the Sterling 9mm but the Inglis stayed in service until most recntly. I believe crew man would have a Weapon.
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#3
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The current crew personal weapon is generally the C8 rifle, although there are variations to this gun now. It is basically a short barrelled M16 with a collapsible stock. Some have been converted to flat top to allow the use of scopes like Elcan. I purchased a very large number of demilitarized Sten magazines which had come out of Cdn service. In the lot was a magazine for the M3 grease gun. It was my understanding that some of the tanks purchased from the US came with their small arms, resulting in a few anomolies to the normal Canadain army issue of weapons. In my day, everyone in a tank or armoured car crew had a weapon along with their crew served. You did not let the Seargent Major see you outside your vehicle without your personal weapon within arm's reach. |
#4
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So I'm guessing the brackets inside most M4A2's are originally designed for M3 grease guns or Thompson smg's? These would just be used as is for Stens? Would the stens have full stocks, skeleton or T style? I suppose if the tank is finished in Korean War era turnout, Thompson SMG's would be considered correct?
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#5
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Many Internet electrons have been expended arguing whether or not use of nonstandard or captured weapons was permitted. Discipline starts within. The outward expression of discipline is conformity. The word uniform is not just a noun to describe a set of clothes. The whole national effort to test, build and equip soldiers depends on the users being mindful of everyone behind them, supporting them. To throw away your rifle is the same as insulting your aunt or cousin who made it. Soldiers were taught and absolutely expected to use what was issued, and God help the insubordinate ones who lost, destroyed or failed to fully use their weapons. What self-respecting soldier would not defend himself against the enemy? I have intentionally not mentioned stupidity like Sir Sam Hughes' insistence on the marginally fit Ross Rifle in WWI, or the awkwardness of drawing friendly fire from use of enemy weapons. With rare exception, British pattern firearms in WWII were quite suited for battle.
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Terry Warner - 74-????? M151A2 - 70-08876 M38A1 - 53-71233 M100CDN trailer Beware! The Green Disease walks among us! |
#6
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We'll put Terry! I appreciate everyone's help!
John |
#7
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What about the 'tankers model' 38 Enfield with no hammer spur?
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
#8
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Korean War Shermans
Stens for Canadian AFV Crews in Korea, not Thompsons.
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#9
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Not wanting to dispute you Ed but I know first hand that it was well known duirng Korea for Canadian troops to use US made weapons.
One Korea vet that I speak with used a M1 carbine on a regular basis while he was serving (CASF PPCLI, Kapyong). He mentioned Canadians as often scrounging for US made weapons that for whatever reason were thought of as superior to whatever the Crown was offering up at the time...
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#10
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Stens it is! Thanks guys!
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#11
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Small Arms - Korea
Don't go confusing the small arms used by the Infantry in Korea with those used by the AFV crews. Yes, there are certainly lots of images of M1 Carbines being used by the Infantry, so I would be interested in seeing an image of one being used by an AFV crewman.
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#12
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Ed, my thoughts being that Canaidan armoured crewmen perhaps following in the footsteps of their WW2 brethren, the Brits at least as well as a few Canadians seemed to have an affectinado with the Thompson SMG for one as well as the M3 grease gun.
I understand that the infantry was an entired different entity from the armoured corps whic BTW was very limited in the Korean engagement. According to my friend who was in the PPCLI, American equipment was often chosen due to the fact that supplies were so much easier to obtain in theatre. He mentioned that during re-supply it was often a case of "how many do you want?"
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#13
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Thompson SMG In Canadian Use
Don't confuse WWII Thompson use with Korea. The Thompson was used early in WWII by the Canadian Army for training in the UK and in the Italian theatre. The Sten began replacing the Thompson in 1942 and the Thompson was not used by Canada in NW Europe. Remember the Thompson takes .45 cal ammunition and the Sten 9mm which impacts on the supply chain every time you introduce a new calibre of ammunition.
The RASC Standing Orders for 1 Commonwealth Division, the formation that the Canadian 25th Brigade fought under, clearly lists the variety of ammunition that the Division is require to supply and .45 cal ammunition is not on that list. The list does contain 9mm, 7.92mm BESA as well as .30 cal Belted, .50 cal Belted and .30 cal Carbine. Some 60 years ago our U.S. may well have been very generous with their weapons and I have no doubt that 'gentlemen deals' were reached; but please do not let these colourful stories overshadow the facts. |
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