MTB Base in Montreal???...

[David Dunlop]

OK Marc. Please give us some more details. Why was there an MTB Base in Montreal? I find this interesting because many years ago, Peter Ford told me that while he was based with the CBC in Montreal, one of his co-workers had purchased a surplus Fairmiles in Montreal and was living on it. I thought that was an odd place to surplus one of those boats, but now perhaps it makes more sense.

David

[John McGillivray]

I did a google search and found this site.

http://shipbuildinghistory.com/histo...ada/cpower.htm

[David Dunlop]

John.

Nice find! A short production history for the MTB but just for the heck of it, let's kick the ball into Hanno's side of the field now.

A large part of the Royal Navy contract was cancelled and then signed over to The Netherlands in 1942. Were these boats ever completed and delivered, and where were they operating out of for The Netherlands? and what happened to them at wars end?

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Nice find! A short production history for the MTB but just for the heck of it, let's kick the ball into Hanno's side of the field now.

A large part of the Royal Navy contract was concealed and then signed over to The Netherlands in 1942. Were these boats ever completed and delivered, and where were they operating out of for The Netherlands? and what happened to them at wars end?

The Royal Netherlands Navy adopted the MTB-type of class shortly before WW2. At least one was effectively used in the defence of Rotterdam harbour during the May 1940 attack by Germany. After the capitulation of the Netherlands the RNN continued to operate out of the UK, as were other elements of the Netherlands armed forces. Read more about the exploits of the Dutch MTB's in the English channel here: http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Special_mtb.htm

The above is only about the European part, this class of ship was effectively employed in the Netherlands East-Indies as well.

I did not realise we used Canadian-built MTB's, a quick search revealed it could have been the BPB 72 feet-type class of which 5 were taken into service by the RNN: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class/648.html

HTH,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

I did a google search and found this site.
http://shipbuildinghistory.com/histo...ada/cpower.htm

A further search revealed that the subject MTB's were actually known as the TM-22 class MTB - see http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/TM22.htm

All eight of them were transferred to the Netherlands West-Indies (yes, we once truly ruled the world's seas ), after serving there they were transferred to other regions and Navies.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

More info: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canad...r_Boat_Company

See pictures of the construction of these boats here: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...pl6smt7nsocuf0

And today: http://quebecindustrialheritage.blog...mpany.html?m=1

H.

[Marc Montgomery]

There were several photos -then and now- in one of the old Convoy magazines, When I took the pics several years ago, the boat basin had been long filled in and was a gravel parking lot (fairly big)

there used to be a road right along the south side of the canal and a small lift bridge gave access to and from the basin...

the canal is not that wide so manoeuvring the 70 plus foot boats in and out would have been interesting.

guarantee that less than a handful of montrealers....0.0000001% know there were MTBs built here.. Few Cdns would even know what MTB is..being brought up on US tv and PT boats (apparently not too successful or reliable)

Also in an old convoy edition were photos of the Angus yards..big locomotive works..BIG..converted to making tanks..... again then and now photos......now..subdivsions and a part of the former building is a very large supermarket. Strange to think in the exact spot where they used to build tanks, is now rows of American grapes, mexican avocados...monsanto GM tomatoes etc..

Also in another Convoy edition....lots of then and now photos. of the Sorel plant (again huge!) were 25pdrs were made... I could find NO evidence to indicate to anyone the importance of the plant or the city..no plaque ..rien!

There was -ONE- very sad condition 25pdr at a kind of run-down, out of the way Legion and I think it might have had a plaque...but I bet again 99% of the people there dont know of the history. Quebec politics...that all I will say.

[Robert Bergeron]

Dear Marc,

Not all Québecers forget..

My uncle Gerry Plammondon played hockey with the Montéal Canadians and Maurice Richard during the war in between shifts working on torpedoes for the MTB ' s out of the Le Guardeur plant just outside of Montéal.

You see, it was the war and unless you were a star like Maurice Richard , you had to work for the war industry AND play hockey.

Gerry is 91 now and going strong. He told me all about the MTB's and the torpedoes is was making for them.One of his torpedoes surely sank the Bismark. i am sure.. well almost.

So let the war stories come out gents, there are plenty to be told.. even in Québec.

Cheers !



Robert

[Marc Montgomery]

Well Rob, youre one of those very few. Again, almost no one knows that two of the biggest munitions plants were near montreal...
One north of the city called "le Plan Bouchard"...a huge operation..now a subdivision..although when I was last there, there were still traces left in the brush where the development hadnt reached..shown in the Convoy Mag

Again in an old Convoy mag there are before and after photos.

Montreal and surrounding area during the war years was a very major supplier..from buiding Canso amphibs, to clothing and webbing, MTBs, tanks, planes, radio equip... you name it.

[Robert Bergeron]

Hey Mark,

My father served at Camp Bouchard after the war and he had fond memories of the courses he attended there. He used to fly to Camp Bouchard in a RCAF DC3 from Sherbrooke. They landed in Cartierville airport now closed and then boarded a Jeep or other transport to Camp Bouchard.

I regularly overfly Camp Bouchard by plane ( my Cessna) and chopper ( Griffon today's RCAF ) and there are numerous remaining buildings and ammunition bunkers . Next door there is a testing oval racetrack were there were safety trials of cars by Transport Canada that is still being used by someone .

There are still munitions plants in Montréal. Grenades , ammunition , and other misc are made . Don't forget that the country's largest military depot is in Longue Pointe.. , Montréal. For example ,there a more Leopard tanks in Longue Pointe than anywere else in Canada. Recently ( in the last years ) a lot of 1000' s of Inglis High Power 9mm pistols were drawn from stores in Longue Pointe for service in a Far East country i will not name . Brand new in the box never fired dated from 1945 . From first hand experience they shoot very well.

Montréal's economy is still very much military oriented. From F-18 refurbishment, to F16/ 18 landing gear manufacture , Simulators , comms, sofware etc....amongst other things.


Cheers !

[Marc Montgomery]

oh...to get one of those inglis....sigh..

hey where do fly your cesnna from? gimme a call I'll go with you! I have like 4 hours in 172.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I can attest that the CF periodically dips into the War Reserves of Brownings. In 1990, I saw an absolutely perfect Lend Lease decal model example issued for the Gulf War. Similarly, I drew a very nice pistol to carry in Afghanistan.

When the CF stopped giving out WWII Inglis marked magazines, and went out to contract with batches of new European-made magazine, almost all the feed and reliability problems went away. As long as the gun has oil on the rails, it worked.

[Robert Bergeron]

Hey Mark ,

I fly out of CYSG ( Saint-Georges ) airport, but i can pick you up at any public airport within a 300 NM radius Mark ! We could go 25 pounder or Sherman hunting together.I heard a story there is a Sherman standing in what used to be a field in... but is now grown over with trees , we could go on a recce to find it next summer !

Terry,

two years ago at my annual 9mm qualification in Farnham, i had an Inglis pistol with Chinese markings ( the Chinese contract by gosh ) ! Three years ago, in Laval at the indoor range of the 4R22 th armoury , the butt of the pistol i was firing also had the remnants of the Made in Canada decal : English, Chinese, Russian ! true, with the new magazines , no more feeding issues.

Bang-Bang

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

heard a story there is a Sherman standing in what used to be a field in... but is now grown over with trees , we could go on a recce to find it next summer !

I suggest early spring or late fall might be better than summer or winter - try to catch it without either leaves or snow to hide what you are looking for.

[Robert Bergeron]

Thanks Grant excellent observation/ sugestion.

Anyone out there have info on that elusive Québec Sherman ?

Am i starting an urban legend here ?

That would be quite a find. My idea is that it was employed for target practice . Like the Centurion's we had in Gagetown on the Air/ Ground range.

I remember firing the .50 cal on my APC turret mount at what ressembled Centurion hulls from 1500 yards . The tracer rounds hit the hull and deflected at right angles. Quite a sight ! Last time i was on that range , the grass was so dry , we started grass fires every time .

That-kachink-that-kachink -that-cachink (typical .50 cal sounds, round firing and spent case extracting )

[Marc Montgomery]

Robert- Mascouche is 10min from me...about 120nm from St Georges.
we could go up to Lachute to visit a dream of mine.. when I win the lottery i guess.

Lachute its one of those interesting developments of a subdivision of housing on top of hangars..

while spring and fall are best for spotting, winter is ok too as long as it hasn't snowed much, or hasnt had new snow in a while as the dark metal will melt the snow and stand out amidst the white


BTW- do people know that VIckers Montreal built submarines in WWI...and that at least one ended up, captured and used as a training vessel for Uboat crews for WW2

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/cdnhboat.htm

Yes its true Canada used to build everything...alas not anymore

[Robert Bergeron]

Mark,

Get in touch with me in the spring. I am in the middle of my annual inspection for my bird. I have always done my annual in december since 1988. December is the month i fly the least. 1st because of the weather and then because of all the family reunions for Xmas and the New Year. But i have always flown on Jan 1st ever since 1988 without a miss ! Couple of years ago i barely left the ground because i could not see anything. I flew the equivalent of the Wright brothers first flight and then landed and hanguared the bird. That was enough with the snow wind and cold. But it counted for my logbook. This year was my 25 th.

I know Lachute quite well. I was the guest lecturer for a conference on aviation there in October.
Is it the little Auster in the hangar you are longing after or the Stearman or the Harvard ? I have flown the last two.

Any way, stay in touch and call me in the spring for Sherman hunting. The days i have been G Wagon hunting . Like straffing with my landing lights. A lot of fun. The AA sentries really get into it. Wonder if the Sherbrooke Hussars know its me ?

Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to all .


Bob

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

There are still munitions plants in Montréal. Grenades , trip flares , C7/ C9 ammunition , and other misc are made.

Robert,

I've always thought that all of our munitions were made at Valcartier. Has this changed and is IVI closed?

Whereabouts in Montreal is all this ordnance being made?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Robert Bergeron]

my friend,

IVI or Industries Valcartier was bought out by SNC/ Lavalin a while back. In turn SNC/ Lavilin sold to General Dynamics the defense supply giant. The plant in Valcartier is closed. In the Montréal area there was a Crown Corporadtion Canadian Arsenals making all kinds of ammunition/explosives also bought out by SNC/Lavailin and in turn by General Dynamics. Their plants are in Le Guardeur, Saint Augustin de Desmaures, Nicolet and Valleyfield. GD ( General Dynamics ) is the sole supplier of ammunition to the Canadian Armed forces. The plant in Le Guardeur made amongst other things torpedoes during WW2 . Until 1995 or so they made anti personel landmines . The Ottawa treaty on mine warfare put an end to that.

[Marc Montgomery]

To my knowledge, Canada still has AP mines and can use them. (perhaps no longer Cdn made?)
. BUT they can only be deployed and activated in situations where visual obs can confirm enemy activity ..and i believe, manually operated....and not the typical left in the ground indiscriminately activated mines.

can someone confirm- deny

[Dan Martel]

Since part of this thread delved off into the production of munitions in Canada, I thought I'd share a part of an article I'd recently found on Canadian Arsenals Ltd. It appeared in the July, 1952, edition of the RCEME Quarterly and was written by FB Strong of CAL. I won't repeat the entire article verbatim, but I thought that those paragraphs detailing the facilities then in operation would add to the conversation.

While Canadian Arsenals Limited was only established as a crown company in 1945, the production history of one of its six major divisions, Dominion Arsenals Division at Quebec City, goes back over 70 years. Another, Gun Ammunition Division at Lindsay, Ontario, dates back to World War 1.

The manufacture of ammunition in Quebec was started about the end of the 17th century, probably in the days of Le Sieur de Frontenac. Plans for a Canadian arsenal were not formulated, however, until 1879 and in October 1882 seventy machines came into operation with staff of a dozen employees. Such was the formal beginning of Dominion Arsenal.

At the outbreak of war in 1939 it was the only government-owned munitions factory and was administered directly by the army.

Today the Dominion Arsenal Division consists of two plants, the Palace Hill plant in Quebec City and the Val Rose plant at Valcartier. The former is equipped for the manufacture of cartridge cases, primers, and other miscellaneous ammunition stores, such as metal components for small arms ammunition, igniters, and cartridge clips. The Val Rose plant is set up for the manufacture of all types of small arms ammunition. A third plant is being converted from an existing factory at Quebec City to provide additional facilities for the manufacture of cartridge cases. This plant will be known as the Louise Basin plant and will be controlled by Dominion Arsenal Division.

Small Arms Division at Long Branch, Ont, consists of the former government-owned Small Arms Limited plant, and is equipped to manufacture or repair all small arms up to 30 mm calibre, together with their ancillary equipment. This covers such personal weapons as rifles, machine carbines, pistols, revolvers, automatic machine guns, light, medium or heavy.

The Filling Division at St Paul l'Ermite Quebec (formerly the government-owned plant of Defence Industries Limited) has facilities for the filling and assembling of shells, cartridge cases, fuzes, primers, tracers, mines, bombs, grenandes and other specialties. Production of pyrothechnic stores is limited to those types which cannot be undertaken by commercial facilities. Standby equipment is available for filling such stores as depth charges, hedgehogs, and torpedo war-heads. It is also possible to carry out experimental production and to make standard tests on fuzes, bombs, primers, tracers, caps, and detonators.

Gun Ammunition Division at Lindsay Ont has facilities for the development and manufacture of gun ammunition metal components, including shells, tracers, fuzes and other machined components and assemblies for 20 mm to 5.5-in guns inclusive, as well as mines, bombs and grenades.

The Explosives Division consists of five sections of which two, those at De Salaberry and Shawinigan, have been rehabilitated as part of the current defence production program. Defence Industries (1951) Limited, the wartime operator of these facilities, was engaged to carry out the rehabilitation and operation of these plants to the extent required.

The De Salaberry Works at Valleyfield covers some 1,800 acres and is producing smokeless powder (rifle and cannon), RDX and its various compositions. Facilities for producing cordite are being adapted to produce flashless powder. During the war this plant also produced trinitrotoluol (TNT), dinitrotouol, and tetryl. Production will be starting shortly on intermediates such as nitric acid and nitrocellulose.

The Hexachlorethane Works at Shawinigan Falls is actively producing this smoke generating chemical in fulfillment of current orders.

The article doesn't mention the locations of the remaining three sections of the Explosives Division. Can anyone fill this in?

The sixth and final Division of CAL was the Instrument and Radar Division at Leaside (now Toronto). It didn't produce munitions but did manufacture precision instruments and opticals. It was the follow-on to the wartime Research Enterprises Limited. The Leaside plant was being augmented by a new $2.5 million dollar plant in Scarborough (also now Toronto).

I think, but am not sure, that St Paul l'Ermite is now a part of Repentigny, a suburb north-east of Montreal.

Long Branch, at least that part that contained the Small Arms Division, is now Mississauga.

There's no mention of the manufacture of artillery at Sorel. Was this not undertaken until after 1952 or part of a completely different organization?

Cheers,
Dan.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

To my knowledge, Canada still has AP mines and can use them. (perhaps no longer Cdn made?)
. BUT they can only be deployed and activated in situations where visual obs can confirm enemy activity ..and i believe, manually operated....and not the typical left in the ground indiscriminately activated mines.

can someone confirm- deny

Early in the Afghan war there was a news story about the camp defences in Kabul. Somehow the presence of "mines" was mentioned. I was working in HQ in Ottawa at the time, and watched a CANSOF major speak very directly to a full colonel or BGen about this. He was responsible for those defences when the story was based. There were no AP landmines. There were however, command detonated defensive mines. The use of Claymores hit the news for real when a soldier was killed on a badly run range.

2-12-2010; Baker, Joshua Caleb Corporal; 24; The Loyal Edmonton Regiment (4th Battalion Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry); Canadian Army; Alberta; Edmonton; Non-hostile - explosion (claymore mine); Kandahar; Afghanistan

http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/Natio...?hndQry=Canada

[Robert Bergeron]

Quote :
In an incident known as the C-19 incident near former Camp Nathan Smith in Afg. two canadian officers and a Warrant officer have been found and / or pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty after an incident during a firing range where the C-19 amoungst many other weapons were used.A private, untrained in the handling of the C-19 had placed the unfamiliar weapon backwards , thus firing in the direction of friendly personnel.The death of Corporal Baker was immediate.Many others were injured.

End of quote .

We must not forget the men and women who have sacrificed everything for their country.

Lest we forget.

Robert

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

An untrained private had placed the unfamiliar C-19 backwards

What was an untrained private doing in Afghanistan in the first place? My son did two tours in Afghanistan. He started off as in a reserve regt., and he trained with and fired the claymore mine on his basic Infantry course. They had to have at least two years in the reserve before they could even sign up for a tour, and then had almost a year of pre-deployment training.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv5...ahar-city_news

[Ed Storey]

'Untrained' in the use of the C19, not untrained as in the required skills for the tour, is what should be interpreted from the statement that has been made.

[Marc Montgomery]

Unless I am mistaken, the claymore has a slightly curved face to spray a wider arc along with the large words "this side toward enemy" embossed on it (?)

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

Unless I am mistaken, the claymore has a slightly curved face to spray a wider arc along with the large words "this side toward enemy" embossed on it (?)

I believe it reads "Front towards Enemy"

[Robert Bergeron]

All,

Please read revised statement.The point is one of our own was lost and many were injured.We must never forget their sacrifices.

The weapon , made in Montréal worked properly and did it's job but in the wrong direction because of improper training.

Robert

[Ewen B]

I remember as a kid living in Blainville just south of Camp Bouchard during the "October Crisis", and watching the toops, foot patrols, helicopters, convoys travelling around and on static duty. I thought it was great, and wish I had a camera then. Why a patrol made a trip down our back yards I have no ideal, but I guess that is before anybody could afford to put fences up, and it was more scenic than walking down the street.

We also used to use the camp for scouting activities in later years.

[Robert Bergeron]

Anybody know when Camp Bouchard closed for good ?