Traction for Hungarian Guns

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #1 06-10-04, 13:38

Knowing next to nothing of trucks I came across that the Hungarian Army in 1938-39 bought 820 what was called Ford-Marmon V-8 from Ford in Cologne.

These were in 1940-41 rebuilt to Marmon-Herrington four-wheel-drive by Manfred Weiss factory.

Who knows more about such vehicles?

Bill Murray · #2 06-10-04, 18:30

Stellan:

I am almost positive I have seen pics of such a truck but cannot find it just now. We are only a couple of hours from getting on a plane to go out West to our annual Hobby Convention and to visit my Dad so am running out of time.

I think it is buried in one of the issues of Wheels and Tracks and I just don't have time to look and I have misplaced my copy of the articles listing of that magazine.

Hanno may be able to help and I have posted a request on a couple of other sites I belong to asking for help. If anything turns up I will let you know.
Bill

Nick Balmer · #3 11-10-04, 22:07

Hello,

Bonhardt Attila, Sarhidai Gyula and Winkler Laszlo wrote a book in Hungarian called A Magyar Kiralyi Honvedseg Fegyverzete, which I can translate very roughly as my albility to speak Magyar is limited to really important things like ordering wine, and asking my Mother in Law from piling my plate any higher.

The Hungarians bought about 1000 38M Ford 2.5 tonners from the Koln Factory. It appears that only 785 were actually delivered. In 1942 200 more were received, and 386 in 1943. I think the Ford model number was G917T.

In 1938 they ordered 1185 39 M Ford Marmon 2.5 tonnas terepjaro tehergepkosci. I think the book says that on April 1st 1943 they had 1099 of these trucks.

They were Ford V8 51G Koln Marmon Herringtons. with Ford V8 engines with 3360cm3.

The bonnet appears like the 1938 American Pattern Ford, but appears to have been supplied without a pressed steel cab because the very grainy photo I have shows a coachbuilt cab with a canvas roof.

Most Hungarian trucks were license built German trucks, but they had Italian Breda, Fiat and Pavesii tractors for artillery, as well as an indigenious Raba 41 M gun tractor which really looks the business.

Regards

Nick Balmer

Bill Murray · #4 14-10-04, 03:20

Hej Stellan:

Good things come to those who wait. I was away for a week and the following popped up on my PC while I was gone.

All photos to follow courtesy of Milan Szekeiyhidi of Hungary who got them from books from Hungary which I assume deal with the history of Hungarian operations in WWII. I cannot read Hungarian and the titles are long as hell but if you need them I will post them or PM them. There were two books and one modelling magazine as I read his comments.

Following are several photos of both "normal" what I guess were called Ford Marmon trucks and obvious Marmon Herrington conversions. I hesitate to identify the exact model year as in the Eastern countries they quite often mixed up different years front sheet metal but they are in any case 1938/39 vintage trucks.
First is a MH coversion in Ukraine 1944

Bill Murray · #5 14-10-04, 03:27

Next is a standard "Ford Marmon" with wood body.

Bill Murray · #6 14-10-04, 03:28

Next would appear to be the more or less same vehicle but converted to MH

Bill Murray · #7 14-10-04, 03:31

And finally for today, a bridge carrier 4x2 which may have a longer wheelbase than the others.

Nick Balmer · #8 14-10-04, 04:26

Hello Bill,

The third photo down is a print of the one that appears in the book I refered to as a: -

Ford V8 51G Koln Marmon Herringtons. with Ford V8 engines with 3360cm3.

Regards

Nick Balmer

Bill Murray · #9 14-10-04, 05:23

Nick:

Yup, that is the same book that Milan is using as a resource.

Is it possible that more photos are available from that book or some others that you may have access to?

Hungarian mother in law.... Not related to the famous Gabor sisters of Hollywood fame is she? Bad memory and bad spelling but I seem to remember Zaza (?) Eva and Momma Gabor.

Very entrepeneurial family led by Momma. Out of the ashes of WWII to stardom and I believe rather a lot of money.
Bill

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #10 14-10-04, 10:45

Thank you very much Bill and Nick!

Does your Hungarian contacts have figures on 40 mm Bofors AA guns made by MAVAG? In such case please put them into the "Bofors thread" of WW 2 Hist & Equip.

Greetings,

Stellan

Nick Balmer · #11 14-10-04, 21:52

Hello,

The book I have was published more than 10 years ago when the print quality was very poor compaired to today. It does have excellent line drawings however of many of the AFV's although not the trucks.

About 2 or more years ago approximately three Pro Modell Achiv Specials came out with very good pictures of Hungarian tanks and trucks.

When I showed them to my step father in law who was a Hungarian Russian Front survivor, he got wildly excited, for two reasons.

Firstly, he had been orphaned in 1938, and like all Hungarian orphans he was sent to Military College. Just after he graduated as an officer he was assigned to test drive the first Botond trucks as part of the acceptance trials. Apparently he and two friends were told to drive some immense mileage around Hungary. As none of them had been allowed so much freedom, and they had not previously travelled much, they had a fantastic time driving around a route to take in as many relatives etc. as possible, in order to get the best beds and food.

The second point was that many of the photos were taken by a fellow officer who was a photography buff. He had an unauthorised camera. After the war being officers they were both suspect for some years, and could not get proper employment. My father in law by luck and on the basis of his prowess at football, ended up running a section of the Ganz organisation, and one day needing a photographer to photograph new railway engines, placed an advert in the paper.

His old friend turned up, and was employed on the spot. They remained friends until very recently.

Regards

Nick Balmer

Bill Murray · #12 15-10-04, 15:59

Morning Nick:

Very interesting story. There are a lot of those out there where people are separated for decades and just by chance run into each other again.

Regarding the magazines you mentioned, is there any chance you still have them or access to them and if so could you scan in the pics of the trucks and post them here. Trying to get stuff on Hungarian transport is really difficult. Tank materiel is not a problem, truck materiel is. For that matter, getting anything on Romanian, Czech and Polish trucks is pretty difficult too, especially when they were American makes. Wheels and Tracks had some good articles on the Baltic countries use of American make trucks but most of the articles on the other countries of Eastern Europe concentrated on their own national brands. Romania, at least, used a wide variety of US brand trucks and cars and I assume the other countries did too.

Thanks for jumping on the thread. The more the merrier.
Cheers
Bill

Bill Murray · #13 14-02-05, 10:22

More to come later, but this one was neat I thought.
38 Chev.
Bill

Bill Murray · #14 16-02-05, 00:31

Another interesting pic.
Bill

David_Hayward (RIP) · #15 24-08-05, 23:35

This site refers to the Hungarian M-H Fords:
http://website.webcenter.lycos.de/www.fomcc.de/g917.htm
http://website.webcenter.lycos.de/ww...c.de/mavag.htm

Ivan Podgornov · #16 02-09-15, 20:29

Hi,
Sorry if i'm touching too old topic, however it seems most relevant to WW2 Eastern Europe Fords (in particular - Romanian & Hungarian) and probably someone has ideas on Fords details.

1. Most probably all German-like Fords G917T (Mod 1939 grille, softcab or metal Koln-cab, Koln-type hood) with Marmon-Herrington front axle are MAVAG conversions of vehicles shippedd from Germany.

Are there any identifications signs for 4x2 Hungarian Fords ? or they just were build 'as is' from German-supplied sets ?

2. Is there any information if Marmon-Herrington conversion set was localized in Hungary or just bought by Manfred-Weiss ?
Did Germans use that somehow in 4x4 G198/V3000A or implemented their own axle ? There are no good photos, but visually it has same timken construction as rear axle, but end parts seem to be more massive than on M-H version

3. If we look on early G917, including Hungarian ones, we can see 3 different types of front wings.
a) Standard 'round' wing, original for US models 1938-1941 (left column in the attached image)
b) Simplified with rounded edge and border at the bottom (bottom-right picture)
c) Simplified with sharp edge and no bottom-border (another attached pic)

I'd suppose all these types are German-origin as a result of some transformation at Ford Koln plant from V8-51 to G917. But actually I don't have any real information about that