Aussie DeSoto Ute

[DaveBuckle]

Have just procured a 1941? DeSoto Ute.
Any info, pics, direction re their service would be greatly appreciated.
Seems to be in that 'not quite desert yellow' that I remember Bob Shutze has a wagon in.
Standing by to be enlightened ...

[Ganmain Tony]

Nothing enlightening from me.

But Nice find!!!

Looks like it may have got a little warm in the bushfires... ???

Any more pictures. Does it have a donk?

[jack neville]

If they have the same rear canopy bows as Ford, Dodge and International utes in Aussie service I can help you out with plans on them.

[DaveBuckle]

Thanks Jack - no bows supplied, so not sure what went on back: that's where photos or other info are needed.
Thanks Tony - came from near BBay. Is not burnt: was painted in an oily black something that has served to preserve it. Guy I bought it off pressure washed most of it off to reveal the yellow.
All the shiny(ish) trim came with it - hence my interest to see how/where it was used in WW2.
Has a donk - seemed to have had a resto started: some parts cleaned up and repainted, others still detached but all there (glass, column, inner guards etc.) chain still on block ready to remove.

[Mike Cecil]

Dave,

You have acquired a very rare vehicle in Australian service.

My records indicate only a small number of De Soto 12 cwt utilities (with P12-prefix chassis numbers) utilities in AMF service and only one in RAN service (in 1945). There were also a couple of sedan cars. Of course, I may not have found records of all those used by the three Australian services, but I doubt I missed very many. When you find a chassis number, please post it here. ** corrected as per Tony's post see below ***

Mike

[Tony Smith]

Ahh, so you got that! That listing was up for only a couple of hours before disappearing. Didn't think it would last long at that price.

Well done!

Mike, not a P12, it's an "SP11 12cwt GS Van". Built as a Plymouth chassis, but badged as a De Soto, hence the "SP11". Be interested to see if the engine number is prefixed SP, or just P. Should be a Canadian 25" engine of 218ci.

If your concerned about the paint, Florite in Sydney have the right shade and gloss level for Australian "Light Stone N" (or Khaki Green J, if you prefer), after some great work by an enthusiastic researcher.

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

On checking further, I had listed the De Sotos by the chassis number prefix which is invariably shown as P12, rather than the model number, which is shown as SP11. I have corrected the list accordingly - have found only 50 with an SP11 model designation in AMF service, and another 27 listed as De Soto and model P12. All are shown with chassis numbers prefixed with P12. So even if the De Sotos listed as model P12 are actually model SP11, it still only adds up to 77 vehicles.

The more common Plymouths, which are also listed with a P12 chassis prefix, are listed as Model P11 or Model P12.

Both the De Soto and Plymouth 12 cwt utes are listed with multi-digit engine numbers without a prefix.

All I have found thus far are in the 88XXX AMF range.

In any event, still an incredibly rare item.

Mike

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Tony,

On checking further, I had listed the De Sotos by the chassis number prefix which is invariably shown as P12, rather than the model number, which is shown as SP11. I have corrected the list accordingly - have found only 50 with an SP11 model designation in AMF service, and another 27 listed as De Soto and model P12. All are shown with chassis numbers prefixed with P12. So even if the De Sotos listed as model P12 are actually model SP11, it still only adds up to 77 vehicles.

The more common Plymouths, which are also listed with a P12 chassis prefix, are listed as Model P11 or Model P12.

Both the De Soto and Plymouth 12 cwt utes are listed with multi-digit engine numbers without a prefix.

All I have found thus far are in the 88XXX AMF range.

In any event, still an incredibly rare item.

Mike

Mike, your columns from AWM 126 are mixed around.
The Engine numbers start with P12, the Chassis numbers are multi digit numbers without prefix.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

What a great Ute, congrats on buying it!

Not a lot to add, but here goes:

This Australian list via Bill Kreiner helps to explain the Year - Model - Marque relationship: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...126#post283126

Mike Kelly had one of these DeSoto Utes, it had the Aust. army nomenclature "SP11 12 cwt GS van" stenciled on the cowl: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...715#post283715

Also see this post about the “PlySoto”: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=12126

[DaveBuckle]

Thankyou Hanno, Tony, Mike - all most helpful - so I have to push wifey's horse float out of the shed then; tell her its for the greater good.
Of course Mike Kelly had one! - he has helped me so much with my Morris CS8.
That pic on his old post Hanno directed me to helped heaps too - am I correct in seeing that the whole windscreen assembly hinges up?
Shows me where all the shiny strips go (and also what headlight surrounds I need to find) - which is part of the puzzle to me: why have a hatch to spot the enemy and then shiny bits to attract him?!
Most staff cars I have seen pictured still have minimal bling.
Will get hunting for chassis and engine numbers to post - It has 3 big letters embossed in firewall: will confirm if TJR.

[Tony Smith]

Not saying Mike Kelly gets around, but he also posted some info on the G: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=101371

[Tony Smith]

Do you need this?

https://www.faxonautoliterature.com/...nual-Original-

[DaveBuckle]

Brilliant Tony (and Mike) I suspected it must of had running boards - the sills have been cut out a bit: due to rust am guessing - worst area is on floor at rear of doors.
Seller was telling me how they were a cut down sedan - seems that was a Ford thing, not DeSoto.
Of course I need the book - but shipping from America may have to wait till the minister has recovered from horse float incident.
I guess I'll be needing to know what other models I can possibly source running boards, headlight surrounds, steering drag link from ...

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Tony, I'll switch the columns around. So a P12 prefix to the engine number.
Mike

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Be interested to see if the engine number is prefixed SP, or just P.

Either P12 or SP11/12. I would say P12, but Mike Kelly earlier referred to an
SP engine, so we'll see.

[DaveBuckle]

Had a look around - found engine number and a couple on the body. Whereabouts should I be looking for chassis number? And what's that group of four letters stand for (DPGD?) is also on inlet manifold.

[Mike Kelly]

I remember the long block Canadian engine in these as having a bore of 3 and 3/8" and a 4 and 1/16" stroke. The T212 I believe used the same engine as did a few other Canadian sourced Chrysler light trucks . My 1946 T116 Dodge ute had the same 218ci engine.

Used to be one of those Plymouth army utes in the Bathurst NSW wreckers but that was so long ago I doubt either the wreckers or the ute still exist.

There was also a Dodge version of the 12cwt army ute but as I have written many times they are actually all 1941 Plymouths with some 'badge engineering' The trim and grills were altered in order to to make them look like a DeSoto or a Dodge which they are not.

Apart from myself, another VMVC member had two of these utes one of which was a DeSoto , they ended up in Sydney in the hands of Bob K. and I believe they later went to the Hughes collection .

The DPCD logo is seen on Chrysler parts , stuff like the bolt heads and other bits. At a guess it is: Dodge Plymouth Chrysler Desoto ?

The registered example I bought, the chap told me he towed a caravan up to Mildura for many years with the ute. He worked at CIG at Preston and he drove it to work well into the early 1980s - he said he bought it in 1956 at a Govt. surplus auction . It was finished in a red/black livery at one time, I would say likely used by the PMG after the war.

I think I still have the negatives, I took lots of pics of the Marong example which was a DeSoto. The original wiring looms were still intact , the glass instrument panel cover was unique to each version, the DeSoto had a fancy family crest , probably from the Spanish conquistador .

[Lynn Eades]

I agree with Mike about the DCPD.
A Chysler engine is prefixed by a C
A Dodge engine with a D
A Plymouth engine with a P
and a De Soto engine is prefixed by an S
A P11 engine and a P12 engine are both 1941 engines. Just early and late. Both are 3 1/8 bore by 4 3/8 stroke.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T.J.R. stands for T.J. Richards, apparently of Keswick, Adelaide. T.J.R. built the cab and rear deck.

Source: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...779#post106779

Originally Posted by DaveBuckle

Had a look around - found engine number and a couple on the body. Whereabouts should I be looking for chassis number? And what's that group of four letters stand for (DPGD?) is also on inlet manifold.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

The DPCD logo is seen on Chrysler parts , stuff like the bolt heads and other bits. At a guess it is: Dodge Plymouth Chrysler Desoto ?

Yes, DPCD stands for Dodge-Plymouth-Chrysler-DeSoto.

Though some say "it should be CDDP - Plymouth being el cheapo should be last"

[DaveBuckle]

Thankyou all for your input: much appreciated! and yes indeed Mike - dash glass is a work of art: gauges should come up alright...

[Mike Kelly]

Dave

The seating arrangement in these army utes is rather unusual, the passenger or drivers mate seat base is arranged so that the guy can stand up and observe and if he is brave enough , he could use the LAA Bren gallows mount .

The ute rear springs are 'beefed up' compared to the springs on the Plymouth sedans .

I put an article together for the USA Chrysler club magazine and the editor was amazed , he had never heard of a 1941 Plymouth sedan based utility .

There was a short window of opportunity for me to own all three variants of the military 12 cwt utes - the 1941 Ford , Chevrolet and the Plymouth plus I did have the Pontiac for a while but it was just all too much , where to store them and the cost of it all.

The engine blocks fitted in these utes are longer when compared to the contemporary T214 and other Chrysler vehicles with smaller bores i.e. up to 3 and 1/4" . So be careful when buying a head gasket. These long block engines also can have different stroke lengths - I think the common post-war 250ci engine has a bore of 3 and 7/16" . There was also a larger Chrysler s.v. 6 engine used in a particular brand of agricultural harvester . Was it 261 ci ? This might help you or maybe confuse you ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_flathead_engine

Oh there are some of these utes listed in the ARN books so you can have a look for your engine nr. and maybe find its ARN and where it was disposed to.

[Tony Smith]

Engine Number P12-17048C was fitted to De Soto "Van, 12cwt, GS" with the chassis number 9829683, and was issued with the ARN 88652. It is recorded as a 1941 SP11 model.

It was disposed of to the Canada Cycle and Motor Co, but no date is given when this happened.

While it is not the highest engine number or chassis number recorded for a De Soto or Plymouth, it is the last or highest ARN registered for a De Soto.

[Mike Cecil]

The last of a very small group. All had engine numbers (not chassis numbers - thanks Tony) prefixed with P12.

ARNs 88345 to 88398, (however 88371 to 88398 are listed as model P12 rather than SP11); 88628 to 88652.

The VB listed for the location where 88652 was taken on charge stands for Victoria Barracks, but as there is a VB in both Sydney and Melbourne, there has been some debate as to which one is referred to. I tend to think it is Melbourne, as that was the location of Army Headquarters, whereas Sydney seems most often to be listed as simply '2', for 2nd Military District.

Mike

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The VB listed for the location where 88652 was taken on charge stands for Victoria Barracks, but as there is a VB in both Sydney and Melbourne, there has been some debate as to which one is referred to.
Mike

And another Victoria Barracks in Brisbane, although this is a colonial era building used by the Militia during WW2, but it was responsible for many of the administrative tasks in Qld (such as registering vehicles?). https://www.armymuseumsouthqueensland.com.au/
https://www.ww2places.qld.gov.au/place?id=320

[DaveBuckle]

Thanks Mike, Tony, Mike for all that - I am indeed enlightened!

[DaveBuckle]

Found on FB MarketP ...
1954 Plymouth motor - would it be an acceptable/doable option for the DeSoto?
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...728646513986/?

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by DaveBuckle

Found on FB MarketP ...
1954 Plymouth motor - would it be an acceptable/doable option for the DeSoto?
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...728646513986/?

Hard to see from the pics if it is a 25" long engine . I had a engine out of a mid-fifties car and it was the shorter 23" long engine with 3 and 1/4" bore . Maybe you would have to alter the engine mounts location in order to fit a 23" engine in the 41 ute. Looks like that motor for sale has the later internal water pump by-pass system ( head gasket has an extra hole ) , the earlier 1940s engines had a external by-pass with a short external hose and a wider fan belt. You could use a 23" engine but there is some degree of fiddling around involved .... There should be some examples of the correct type of Canadian engine around as used in the T110L trucks and other 1940s Canadian sourced Chrysler products.

This will upset you but the original engine from my army 41 DeSoto ute ended up in the Knox tip . All out of my control, a house move and a family member who hates old cars . This persons idea of a good time was an afternoon using a Stihl cut off saw to cut up old cars and tip them....

[Mike Kelly]

On Facebook Market Place

[Mike Kelly]

Film of a army Plymouth/Dodge ute

https://www.facebook.com/10001150537...63156470744525