Stanley Whitehouse's book on Black Watch

[Crewman]

Hello,

Does anyone read the book "Fear is the foe: a footslogger from Normandy to the Rhine" by Stanley Whitehouse? The author was a soldier of the Black Watch Battalion in the 51st Highland Division. Possible reader of this book I would like to ask about several details.

Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Hello,

Does anyone read the book "Fear is the foe: a footslogger from Normandy to the Rhine" by Stanley Whitehouse? The author was a soldier of the Black Watch Battalion in the 51st Highland Division. Possible reader of this book I would like to ask about several details.

Best regards

C.

Hi Gregory;

I have a copy of this book in my library, and yes, I've read it. What details are you interested in?

Cheers

[Crewman]

Hi Mark!

As always thank you for your declaration to help.

Of course I would be interested in the threads - if they exist in this book - of the contacts between Black Watch and the Poles in Normandy. The Polish veterans mention that several times they fought almost together with Black Watches.

But there is also an incident in common history when on August 8th, 1944 the Polish regiments broke the orders of Operation Totalize and turned eastwards from Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil instead of to attack southwards according to 1st Army order. And then the Poles passed throughout the rear and lines of the elements of the 51st Highland Division. The Black Watch Battalion was one of the unit the Poles passed then before next passing through the lines of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry Regiment. It was small inter-Allied scandal Maj.-Gen. George Kitching commented it as follows:

Originally written by Maj.-Gen. George Kitching

I don't know what went wrong with the Poles on those two days, 8 and 9 August, but they certainly were no help to us. They hardly moved an inch on the eight, so much so that General Rennie of the 51st Highland Division complained to General Simonds about their inactivity and the fact that they continued to pour vehicles and men into his area without making any moves forward to ease the congestion.

Source:
George Kitching
Mud and Green Fields
Vanwell Publishing Ltd., St. Catharines 1993
ISBN 0-920277-73-X
Page 196

I am loking for various memoirs of the 51st Division veterans who describe their contacts with the Poles then and maybe they write general opinions about the Poles as well as about an incident of August 8th. In fact the Poles ought to be in other place than 51st lines but this is other story.


Thank you Mark and best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Of course I would be interested in the threads - if they exist in this book - of the contacts between Black Watch and the Poles in Normandy. The Polish veterans mention that several times they fought almost together with Black Watches.

But there is also an incident in common history when on August 8th, 1944 the Polish regiments broke the orders of Operation Totalize and turned eastwards from Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil instead of to attack southwards according to 1st Army order. And then the Poles passed throughout the rear and lines of the elements of the 51st Highland Division. The Black Watch Battalion was one of the unit the Poles passed then before next passing through the lines of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry Regiment. It was small inter-Allied scandal

I am loking for various memoirs of the 51st Division veterans who describe their contacts with the Poles then and maybe they write general opinions about the Poles as well as about an incident of August 8th. In fact the Poles ought to be in other place than 51st lines but this is other story.

Hi Gregory;

The book "FEAR IS THE FOE" is a basic account of a Private, who on D-Day was a Private serving with the 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion and landed as part of No. 6 Beach Group over Sword Beach. In mid-July, the 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion was broken up for reinforcements and the author was posted to the 1st Black Watch, with whom he served until 1947.

There is no mention in the book of any contact with Polish forces in Normandy.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
I am loking for various memoirs of the 51st Division veterans who describe their contacts with the Poles then and maybe they write general opinions about the Poles as well as about an incident of August 8th. In fact the Poles ought to be in other place than 51st lines but this is other story.

Hi Gregory;

From the book: "THE HISTORY OF THE 51st HIGHLAND DIVISION 1939-1945", by J.B. Salmond, page 158:

"The Polish Division had not too satisfactory an experience. They passed through the Black Watch making for Robertmesnil, but one hour later they came back and took up a position behind our lines."

The Black Watch battalion concerned, was the 1st Battalion and this took place on 8 August.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
I am loking for various memoirs of the 51st Division veterans who describe their contacts with the Poles then and maybe they write general opinions about the Poles as well as about an incident of August 8th. In fact the Poles ought to be in other place than 51st lines but this is other story.

From the book: "MONTY'S HIGHLANDERS, 51st HIGHLAND DIVISION IN WORLD WAR TWO", by P. Delaforce, pages 151 and 152:

Referring to 8 August:

on page 151:

"About 1400 the Polish Armoured Div Shermans passed through heading for Roberts Mesnil and St Sylvain where 88mm anti-tank guns gave them a very sticky time. The Poles reported that they had taken St Sylvain, but their second and third attacks all failed."

and on page 152, an account by Major Benson (1st Black Watch):

"30 tanks of the Polish Armoured Div moved into "D" Coy's area where they milled about for an hour attracting considerable shell and mortar fire. After a two hour Recce towards La Bu-Sur-Rouvres they withdrew through the battalion area attracting more shell and mortar fire."

Cheers

[Crewman]

Hi Mark!

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The book "FEAR IS THE FOE" is a basic account of a Private, who on D-Day was a Private serving with the 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion and landed as part of No. 6 Beach Group over Sword Beach. In mid-July, the 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion was broken up for reinforcements and the author was posted to the 1st Black Watch, with whom he served until 1947.

There is no mention in the book of any contact with Polish forces in Normandy.

Thank you very much! This is also valuable info for me because I thought if to buy or not to buy this book.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
From the book: "THE HISTORY OF THE 51st HIGHLAND DIVISION 1939-1945", by J.B. Salmond, page 158:

"The Polish Division had not too satisfactory an experience. They passed through the Black Watch making for Robertmesnil, but one hour later they came back and took up a position behind our lines."

The Black Watch battalion concerned, was the 1st Battalion and this took place on 8 August.

You are reading in my mind . I wanted to ask also about this book

Yes, August 8th and 9th for the Polish 1st Armoured Div. was a time of hard combat debut. I think that it would be hard to find the unit with excellent and successful moment when the unit entered action for the first time. Since Operation Tractable the image of the Poles is totally different than in the case of Totalize.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
From the book: "MONTY'S HIGHLANDERS, 51st HIGHLAND DIVISION IN WORLD WAR TWO", by P. Delaforce, pages 151 and 152:

Referring to 8 August:

on page 151:

"About 1400 the Polish Armoured Div Shermans passed through heading for Roberts Mesnil and St Sylvain where 88mm anti-tank guns gave them a very sticky time. The Poles reported that they had taken St Sylvain, but their second and third attacks all failed."

and on page 152, an account by Major Benson (1st Black Watch):

"30 tanks of the Polish Armoured Div moved into "D" Coy's area where they milled about for an hour attracting considerable shell and mortar fire. After a two hour Recce towards La Bu-Sur-Rouvres they withdrew through the battalion area attracting more shell and mortar fire."

Mark, you are fantastic!

I thought also about this book but I did not want to overload you.

This very interesting for me text is more or less the same situation as described by Ken Tout in his "A Fine Night for Tanks". These are the same groups of the Polish tanks coming from two armoured regiments and one recce regiment. This situation is a picture of the Polish Division's HQ obsession that the left flank of the unit is not protected what was not true. That is why general Maczek decided to brake the 1st Army orders to attack southwards and he directed approx. one-third of the division eastwards to build artificial left flank made of own divisional units. Today the greatest secret is why the Poles did not know that their left flank is protected however. There was special general Crerar's directive how the British 51st Div. and British 1st Corps are to protect and support left flank of the Polish 1st Armoured. No even the smallest information about it in general Maczek's memoirs and the same goes for divisional colonels. Hard to believe. As I can see this situation is extremely hard to understand also for all Western, mainly Canadian, authors who are not able to understand correctly what happened on August 8th between the Polish and British lines. Theoretically no right for the Poles then to be at the lines of the 51st Div. none the less they were there in large quantities. I would love to know how Mr. Brian A. Read got through with this complicated story in his newest "No Holding Back" book on Totalize. I bought it and wait for delivery.


Thank you very much Mark!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Hi Mark!


Thank you very much! This is also valuable info for me because I thought if to buy or not to buy this book.


You are reading in my mind . I wanted to ask also about this book

Yes, August 8th and 9th for the Polish 1st Armoured Div. was a time of hard combat debut. I think that it would be hard to find the unit with excellent and successful moment when the unit entered action for the first time. Since Operation Tractable the image of the Poles is totally different than in the case of Totalize.


Mark, you are fantastic!

I thought also about this book but I did not want to overload you.

This very interesting for me text is more or less the same situation as described by Ken Tout in his "A Fine Night for Tanks". These are the same groups of the Polish tanks coming from two armoured regiments and one recce regiment. This situation is a picture of the Polish Division's HQ obsession that the left flank of the unit is not protected what was not true. That is why general Maczek decided to brake the 1st Army orders to attack southwards and he directed approx. one-third of the division eastwards to build artificial left flank made of own divisional units. Today the greatest secret is why the Poles did not know that their left flank is protected however. There was special general Crerar's directive how the British 51st Div. and British 1st Corps are to protect and support left flank of the Polish 1st Armoured. No even the smallest information about it in general Maczek's memoirs and the same goes for divisional colonels. Hard to believe. As I can see this situation is extremely hard to understand also for all Western, mainly Canadian, authors who are not able to understand correctly what happened on August 8th between the Polish and British lines. Theoretically no right for the Poles then to be at the lines of the 51st Div. none the less they were there in large quantities. I would love to know how Mr. Brian A. Read got through with this complicated story in his newest "No Holding Back" book on Totalize. I bought it and wait for delivery.


Thank you very much Mark!

I was just going to suggest to you that you pick up a copy of Ken Tout's "A FINE NIGHT FOR TANKS" (which I have in front of me), but it looks like you already have a copy .

I'm off to see what Mr. Reid has to say in his book "NO HOLDING BACK" (a copy of which I have also ).

I'll be back..........

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
I would love to know how Mr. Brian A. Read got through with this complicated story in his newest "No Holding Back" book on Totalize. I bought it and wait for delivery.

Hi Gregory;

When you receive your copy of "NO HOLDING BACK", the information regarding 1st Polish Armd Div can be found between pages 284 through to 291, for the time period in question. I won't quote it here, I'll let you read it for yourself.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I won't quote it here, I'll let you read it for yourself.

Of course Mark, thanks for all you did for me today. I think that there will be not only one occasion to comment Mr. Reid's book. Maybe the author will honor us by his presence at the MLU?

Best regards

Gregory

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
I am loking for various memoirs of the 51st Division veterans who describe their contacts with the Poles then and maybe they write general opinions about the Poles as well as about an incident of August 8th. In fact the Poles ought to be in other place than 51st lines but this is other story.

From the personal diary of Lt.-Col. Martin Lindsay (1st Gordons), whose entry for 9 August reads:

"The Polish Armoured Division is in front of us, but we can't find out where they have got. David says they never send back any information and only come back when they want to draw more rations."

Cheers

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
"The Polish Armoured Division is in front of us, but we can't find out where they have got. David says they never send back any information and only come back when they want to draw more rations."

Yes, such things were famous.

C.

PS. Is this memoir published?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
PS. Is this memoir published?

Yes, under the title "SO FEW GOT THROUGH, The personal diary of Lieut.-Col. Martin Lindsay, D.S.O., M.P., who served with the Gordon Highlanders in the 51st Highland Division from July, 1944, to May, 1945", by Martin Lindsay; published by Collins, London, England, 1946.

The copy I have is a first edition (1946), but I have seen this book in reprint within the last couple of years.

Cheers

Also, have you heard the story of the Polish Lieut. who showed up at a R.C.A.S.C. Petrol Point, in the dead of night and the Cdn duty officer thinking that he only wanted to refuel his tank, issued him a chit for the Petrol Point, only to find the next morning that the whole of the Polish Armoured Brigade had refuelled, leaving the Petrol Point nearly 'dry'

[John McGillivray]

I came across this listing on the McGill University Library web site. It appears to be a history of the 1st Polish Armoured Division. I have not read this book so I can’t give you any information about it.

“The Black Devils' March : a doomed odyssey : the 1st Polish Armoured Division 1939-45” by Evan McGilvray (Solihull : Helion, 2004.)


http://aleph.mcgill.ca/F/KKNIGHBEG7U...009&format=999

If you do a key word search for "Regimental Histories" it should be the 9th on the list.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
I came across this listing on the McGill University Library web site. It appears to be a history of the 1st Polish Armoured Division. I have not read this book so I can’t give you any information about it.

“The Black Devils' March : a doomed odyssey : the 1st Polish Armoured Division 1939-45” by Evan McGilvray (Solihull : Helion, 2004.)


http://aleph.mcgill.ca/F/KKNIGHBEG7U...009&format=999

If you do a key word search for "Regimental Histories" it should be the 9th on the list.

Hi John/Gregory;

More information on this book located here on the Helion and Company Limited website.

Cheers

[Crewman]

John & Mark,

Thanks for confirmation that this book is on market. I heard about "The Black Devils' March" but several times the publisher delayed this book. As I can see finally this book landed in the bookstores. Very good. No doubt it will be extremely interesting for me to compare Western image of the Polish 1st Armoured Division to our Polish viewpoints. I only hope that this book will not be a "tank counterpart" of the newest American book "A Question of Honor" on the Polish WWII fighter pilots. The book more pathetic than the most pathetic Polish book on this subject and the book containing quasi-historic "facts" taken from the air. Suddenly after 60 years the West looked around and saw that there was such a Polish Ally that had fourth the greatest Armed Forces during WWII and that fought together with the Western Allies in the MTO and ETO. If we add Professor Norman Davies publicism we do have pretty nice "Polish trend" now in the Western WWII historiography.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Also, have you heard the story of the Polish Lieut. who showed up at a R.C.A.S.C. Petrol Point, in the dead of night and the Cdn duty officer thinking that he only wanted to refuel his tank, issued him a chit for the Petrol Point, only to find the next morning that the whole of the Polish Armoured Brigade had refuelled, leaving the Petrol Point nearly 'dry'

Beautiful Typical Polish "the art of life survival" I did not know this story. Does it come from a book?

Thank you friends for your participation in this funny thread!

Warm regards from Warsaw

Gregory

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Beautiful Typical Polish "the art of life survival" I did not know this story. Does it come from a book?

Hi Gregory;

Yes, this story comes from the book: "WAIT FOR THE WAGGON, THE STORY OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN ARMY SERVICE CORPS", by Arnold Warren.

This is the full account from the book:

"Maintaining the Armour presented a particularly difficult problem. When they were pursuing, they used petrol in terrific quantities. And when they were fighting, they used much ammunition and little petrol. At that time they were doing more pursuing and less fighting, and it was a task of major proportions to keep fuel available for their tanks. An Armoured Division on the move might use about 90,000 gallons of petrol a day.

Major-General M.L. Brennan (retired) who was, at that time, CRCASC of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel talked about those hectic days:

"I'll never forget one night, We'd been running across France for five or six days. They'd had battles here and there - small things, but nothing to stop them - and we were having a terrific time to supply them with petrol. The source was getting farther behind us every day. It got behind, if I remember correctly, about one hundred miles. That means a drag of two hundred, and with all the cul de sacs, one-way bridges, darkness, weather, running without lights, and so on, that's a hell of a pull.

I used to try to be at the source of supply, just so the men could see me there, then try to be at the point of delivery. I did this for about six days and I was pretty well beaten, and so were the Drivers. I'd flogged them to death.

This particular day I arrived at my Headquarters about four o'clock in the afternoon. My Senior Supply Officer was there. "I've just been up front," he reported, "and we're all right. If all goes well - the enemy seems to be digging in and the Armour are pulling to a halt - we'll deliver tonight and end up with about 30,000 gallons on hand."

That meant we'd have 30,000 gallons with tomorrow's draw home free, whereas we'd been ending up some days with about two gallons. It sounded wonderful, so I decided to go to bed. I went to my caravan and had started to undress when I saw a Jeep and one of those panel trucks draw up in front. I wasn't paying too much attention, taking off my tunic and one thing and another, when the Adjutant came in and said, "There's a Polish officer here, sir, and he wants some petrol."

Well, I was very tired. I looked out the window at them and said to the Adjutant to give them a chit to the Petrol Point, and to tell them to draw what they wanted.

I went to bed and I slept - oh, I guess I slept fifteen or sixteen hours. Next morning I got up feeling good. The sun was shining. I dressed, had a shave, went outside, and there stood my Senior Supply Officer. He was pretty nearly in tears. He said, "Do you know what happened, sir?"

I said, "No, for Christ's sake, don't tell me something happened last night."

"It certainly did," he said. "Some stupid son-of-a-bitch in this Headquarters gave the Poles a chit to the Petrol Point and they refuelled the Armoured Brigade - 28,000 gallons."

Cheers

[Crewman]

Fantastic
The situation like taken from the "Kelly's Heroes" style war comedy. I can imagine that in the Canadian homes up to present day live tens, if not hundreds, of such stories. Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster described Maj.-Gen. Stanislaw Maczek in the following manner:

Originally written by Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster

The Poles were a tight-lipped glum-looking lot with shaven heads and a grim determination to kill as many Germans as they could get their hands on. At O Group meetings Maczek usually prefixed every sentence with "Ze focking Gairman bastards" before getting to his point.

Source:
Tony Foster
Meeting of Generals
Authors Choice Press, Lincoln 1986
ISBN 0-595-13750-4
Page 356

Are there in Canada more such memoirs about Maczek?

Heh, how to preserve such stories of our common history : So many such stories go away. I can imagine for instance various funny, or not necessarily funny, misunderstandings when we fought together of hellish Quesnay Wood. This fuel depot story is really great ...


C.

[Crewman]

Hi friends,

What also is funny for me is the following short Donald E. Graves' text:

Originally written by Donald E. Graves

It was perhaps just as well that the Regiment soon went back into action as these quiet periods could be stressful. As usual the Poles, who seemed to have some special intelligence source, were the first to know. On 18 February, 1945 the War Diarist noted that there were many rumours "about us moving" which "seem to have been started by the Poles" who came into SAR's area "looking for good billets". Nobody believed these rumours because it was felt that the Polish Division would go into action first as it was "equipped with new Shermans while we still have many of our old originals." Guess again – the next day orders came down to prepare for a move and on 19 February the Regiment said goodbye to the Maas and concentrated at Best.

Source:
Donald E. Graves
South Albertas. A Canadian Regiment at War
Robin Brass Studio, Toronto 2004
page 264

Any ideas why in the Canadian Army the best informed people were the Poles not the Canadians?


Best regards

C.