Dam Busters

[Jon Skagfeld]

This 1954 movie, starring Richard Todd and Michael Redgrave, is on local TV nets (TVO, here) at 2000 hrs EST.

A bit late to post this, but, hey, I just noticed the TV lineup.

Trivia question: (...or have we already done this some time ago...?)

What was the real name of Guy Gibson's black Lab dog? (Non- PCd)

[DaveCox]

The dog was named 'Nigger'

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thanks for the heads-up. old man. I shall watch it! I know the dawg's name, but won't divulge. Let someone else take the plunge! PS: Regarding the name, it may not be PC, but I don't mind because it's history.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Dave Cox...totally correct!

Sunray: "...won't divulge?..." A PC pox on you", living in the left Lib heaven of Tronna! At least Cox was historically correct in his response.


I still love my country, but I still hate my government.

[Jon Skagfeld]

BTW, did anyone notice the cockpit transition of hands on the throttles?

Looks like PIC (Pilot in Command) hands off control to co-pilot just before V1 or just before rotation.

How come? Hollywoodism?

Did you notice that PIC had palms down, then co-pilot had palms up, on the throttles?

Keefy...Comments?

Also, movie which follows is "Guns of Navaronne"...not my most favourite, but neat shot of James Darren knocking off the German boarding party with a Bren gun!

Ho-Hum...SNL should be on soon.

Originally posted by DaveCox
The dog was named 'Nigger'

Absolutely right, however you may find that the film has been re-dubbed for PC compliance in the western world and so the word is missing/replaced.

But, for the signallers amongst us, I believe they failed to re-dub the morse signal for a dam breach which is still sent as "nigger" for those who can read CW.

This might be interesting:
http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/st...ay/dambust.asp

Unfortunately the most misleading fact is the effect of the raid itself which caused relatively minor damage to German war industry; in a bit of strategic short-sightedness there were no follow-up raids, even minor nuisance attacks, so the dams were re-built in short order undisturbed.

The measured effect was limited to a moderate morale boost here, 27,000 people taken off other duties to rebuild and an allocation of 11,000 people to guard other German dams thereafter.

With the benefit of accurate records now, it is likely that the true analysis of the Dams Raid, when weighing the effort, material and personnel expended against the result, is probably failure; 33% of the "target" was wholly undamaged and the assumed effect on enemy industry did not happen.

This is no discredit to the combat crews but the competence of the raid planners in using both their intelligence inputs and effect assessment data is questionable, everyone seemed to get caught up in the novelty aspect and overlooked the real purpose; perhaps what we would call today, hype.

If anything the whole Dambusters thing has become a bit of a sacred cow and gathered its entourage of folk-lore, the true reality is somewhat different.

R.

[wayne c. petrie]

I was at the Mohne Dam in '69.At that time you could still see where the dam had been breached and the repair work done.
We later found a site,on a high hill, where German AA's had been set up.What a commanding view of the area and approches to the dam.It's a wonder how any aircraft cound have got past the AA's.
The bomber crews were certanly brave.

Wayne

[Col Tigwell]

Co Pilot on a Lancaster.
Unless I am mistaken the airplane only carried a pilot.

There are countless stories of other crew positions bringing the aircraft home, fater the pilot was out of action.

Regards

Col Tigwell
Downunder

Originally posted by wayne c. petrie
I was at the Mohne Dam in '69.At that time you could still see where the dam had been breached and the repair work done.
We later found a site,on a high hill, where German AA's had been set up.What a commanding view of the area and approches to the dam.It's a wonder how any aircraft cound have got past the AA's.

Certainly after the raids the AA facilities were either instigated or heavily increased. But all that took time and a few tip and run raids with Mosquitoes perhaps would have extended the rebuild time greatly and made a huge contribution to the cumulative effect.

Even with additional defences, disrupting the re-build would likely have been well within the RAF acceptance of sortie losses, Mossies at full chat were rather difficult to hit with the technology of the day.

The bomber crews were certanly brave.

There is no question about that whatsoever.

The policy of Arthur Harris and the planning staff is debatable though, very broadly, flattening private houses didn't collapse our resolve, why would we think it would collapse theirs?

It is a matter of the record that the height of British bombing effort also coincided with the peak of German heavy armour output. Was the eye on the ball?

German records credit the US bombing effort as very markedly more damaging to their war effort and industry, the bombing figures are 950k tons for the RAF and 700k tons for the US.

R.

[centurion]

One needs to be careful with this film - at the time it was made the design of the bombs and the dropping mechanism was still classified so things in the film were sometimes deliberately distorted presumably to to confuse Soviet agents who might be sitting in the cinema taking notes. In reality the Germans had already worked out the principles soon after the raids and started their own development programme to produce an anti shipping weapon following the same principles. In the UK the Highball project was also set up to produce a Mosquito borne anti shipping bomb on the same lines. By the time the film was produced there was probably very little that was not known but the Whitehall mandarins still insisted on changes to the film.

Incidently one of the bombs from the raid was found, unexploded, buried near one of the dams in the early 1960's. German bomb disposal had no idea how to defuse it and a British unit was despatched to do the job. Appartently because of the secrecy they were also partly in the dark but managed to make the thing safe.

One effect of the raids was to give credibility to Barnes Wallis's theories and ensure the development of the tall boy and grand slam bombs. The impact (in all senses) of the former of these on both massive concrete reinforced V-3 super gun launch site in France and the U-boat pens should not be understated.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by FV623
German records credit the US bombing effort as very markedly more damaging to their war effort and industry, the bombing figures are 950k tons for the RAF and 700k tons for the US.

That's not so much because of US 'pickle barrel' bombing (it wasn't) but because our chaps couldn't actually see what they were supposed to be bombing, Master Bombers and markers notwithstanding. "Creep" was famous, never illustrated better than in Normandy, and that was DAYLIGHT. I think the 'bomber stream' concept in the night raids just made for a target-rich environment for the Luftwaffe as well.

Given Bomber Command's losses in the night raids, I wonder what might have transpired had we gone to daylight sorties with adequate defensive armaments on the bombers and fighter escort. Better results and a higher aircrew survival rate? Ah well, we won anyway.

Originally posted by centurion
One needs to be careful with this film

Quite right, in fact some caution is inevitably required. . . . . . . . .I would like to think the assembly in MLU is somewhat better informed though and unlikely to accept the various media outputs without consideration and question.

Public release films, be it Hollywood, Pinewood, Elstree or wherever, are made to the same rules since the days of silent B&W.

Rule No.1 (or #1 for the N. American continent):
Make money at the box office.

Everything else is subservient to rule 1. Historical detailed accuracy tends to be both unexciting (in media terms) and expensive. The reader may therefore deduce where this comes in the ranking.

One effect of the raids was to give credibility to Barnes Wallis's theories and ensure the development of the tall boy and grand slam bombs. The impact (in all senses) of the former of these on both massive concrete reinforced V-3 super gun launch site in France and the U-boat pens should not be understated.

Not to forget Tirpitz of course. However, here's another strategic gaffe, the pens were well known from PR overflights during construction and of obvious application to a schoolboy let alone a photographic interpreter; so why wait until the build is complete and the concrete well hardened necessitating the invention of a specialist weapon to defeat them?

Perhaps Mr. Harris was far too busy elsewhere with carpet-laying. . . . .
:
Makes you think, doesn't it?

R.

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Given Bomber Command's losses in the night raids, I wonder what might have transpired had we gone to daylight sorties with adequate defensive armaments on the bombers and fighter escort. Better results and a higher aircrew survival rate? Ah well, we won anyway.

At first the American bomber losses in the daylight raids were equal to, or perhaps even higher then those suffered by the RAF. It was only after the long range fighters like the P-51 appeared in large numbers, that the American bombing efforts started to pay off. One should note that without the British, the P-51 may never have being built. When the first prototypes were built by North American, as a private venture, the USAAF showed little interest in aircraft. It was the British who placed the first orders for the aircraft and made production possible

Also one should note that because of all the armament and armour on the B-17 it could carry only a very small bomb load, but had a larger crew. A Mosquito bomber could carry the same weight of bombs as the B-17, but at twice the speed.

Ah, Sunray. . . . . . . . . .

•n. A radiated line or broadening stripe resembling a ray of the sun.
(p.1438 Concise Oxford Dic. 10th edn. revised. 0-19-860438-6)

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
That's not so much because of US 'pickle barrel' bombing (it wasn't) but because our chaps couldn't actually see what they were supposed to be bombing, Master Bombers and markers notwithstanding. "Creep" was famous, never illustrated better than in Normandy, and that was DAYLIGHT. I think the 'bomber stream' concept in the night raids just made for a target-rich environment for the Luftwaffe as well.

Quite so. It is noted that Bomber Command was shocked and stopped operations when learning that the AVERAGE miss distance was 15 miles.

There is no doubt the US bombing was not quantum orders better but coming in late and so with a hugely improved sighting system, plus the daylight advantage, there was a useful improvement in accuracy. Perhaps more importantly it is obvious that the target selection between forces was very different. Although we could allow for some "reprisals" by the RAF under the circumstances, maybe it might have been more useful if the RAF under darkness just unloaded over the Ruhr.

Given Bomber Command's losses in the night raids, I wonder what might have transpired had we gone to daylight sorties with adequate defensive armaments on the bombers and fighter escort. Better results and a higher aircrew survival rate? Ah well, we won anyway.

Its a good point. Arthur's mindset would have needed altering/curtailing though for the best result. It cost us dearly afterwards since the Allies basically paid for the widespread re-building of cities, ours and theirs.

R.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Also one should note that because of all the armament and armour on the B-17 it could carry only a very small bomb load, but had a larger crew. A Mosquito bomber could carry the same weight of bombs as the B-17, but at twice the speed.

Ah yes, that argument. While it's not quite correct, I freely confess to having used it in other fora, primarily to tweak the noses of some of the more anachronistic Americans one tends to run into.

Bombload vs range is the determining equation. On a long trip, such as to Berlin, the Fort could carry twice the load of a Mossie; on a short haul, such as into France, perhaps one and a half times the load. Medium distances is where the Mossie excelled, because it could carry the same load and far faster; not only that, but it could get away quicker after having dumped its load with far more accuracy than the average heavy bomber formation.

I feel there ARE reasonable arguments that our aircraft industry might have been better served to mass produce aircraft like the Mosquito - far fewer resources required, many more aircraft in service and fewer casualties even in daylight raids. Food for thought.

While we in the colonies have come to hate those insidious little biting insects, I can't help feeling the appellation for the aircraft is entirely apropos. Clouds of Mosquitos indeed!

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
While we in the colonies have come to hate those insidious little biting insects, I can't help feeling the appellation for the aircraft is entirely apropos. Clouds of Mosquitos indeed!

Quite so.

Rather off the thrust of this thread, but occasionally the British trend for naming army kit is so apt as to be uncanny; some farsighted person in Alvis I deduce saw this coming and managed to stake off the S names it seems for Alvis alone.

Now I'll probably miss some, and some may not be instantly recognised although a Google with Alvis as a "prefix" will do, the name and vehicle application/nature is almost perfect:
Salamander, Saladin, Saracen, Stalwart, Scorpion, Striker, Scimitar, Samson, Sabre, Spartan, Samaritan, Sultan, Stormer, Shielder, Scarab and likely some I've missed.

R.

[Col Tigwell]

The second pair of hands, I have now established in all likelyhood were belonging to the flight engineer.

According to my contact, that was part of his duties to control the engine power.

Without blocking the way into the nose, there is no space for a 2nd pilot.

I see the ramains must be substantual of a Lancaster are to brought to Australia.

Regards

Col Tigwell
Downunder

[Ponysoldier]

Without being an A--------- American might I add my two
cents? The mission of the the Mossie the B17 and
the P-51 were completely different.The first acceptance
of what what is known as the P-51 was called the A-36
a fighter of single mission roll (ground attack) carried
a liquid cooled Allison,with no turbo or supercharger.
Was accepted USAAF March 1941 the aircraft was great
under 10,000 feet, but above that a hurry was much better.
First acceptance HM RAF P51A-B May 1941 RollsRoyce
Merlin installed after shipment to UK upon installation
of a fuselage fuel aircraft Range increased by 90%,
with a service altuide of 41,000 feet this was with no
bomb load.(it was set up for fuel tanks or bombs not both)
The B-17 B-G max speed 317mph(loaded) fuel + ordance.
range varies by model 3200 miles-3800 miles,payload
5,000 lbs.
Yes the mossie could carry more.yes it was faster but
at much shorter ranges.
Now so some dont think Im jerk, one of the best aircraft
ever built Was the spitfire
Patrick

[tankbarrell]

Originally posted by centurion
[

Incidently one of the bombs from the raid was found, unexploded, buried near one of the dams in the early 1960's. German bomb disposal had no idea how to defuse it and a British unit was despatched to do the job. Appartently because of the secrecy they were also partly in the dark but managed to make the thing safe.

[/B]

The Germans recovered an unexploded mine after the raid and presumably made it safe as the technical drawings and notes they made at the time are what the Royal Engineers use today. Apparently, there was no official british literature to use.....

[Keith Webb]

The significance of that night is slightly different to me - it was as older members of this forum may recall the night my uncle was killed piloting a Hampden off the Dutch coast while attacking German shipping. He was an Australian attached to 415 (Swordfish) squadron RCAF.

I have a page of pics on my site.

As for the film there was an article in Aeroplane Monthly some years ago about it with some comment about how a number of the shots were reversed so the aircraft would appear to be flying in the same direction.

I've also heard the stories about how the raid was relatively inconsequential to the Germans, but what a legendary event it has become to us in the ensuing years.

I read the Paul Brickhill book when I was about 13 and was totally engrossed.

The Lancaster had a flight engineer in addition to the pilot - Col is correct there. Incidentally the Temora Hudson flies with a "Co-pilot" whose duties are those of a flight engineer.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The Germans recovered an unexploded mine after the raid and presumably made it safe

The unexploded mine that overshot was indeed found, made safe and then blueprinted ['reverse engineering' as we would now call it] and then the Germans came up with their own version.

Of course 'we' did the same with the V-1 to create the 'Loon'. If the quantity and required supplies of cordite required to launch the 'Loon' in the absence of Hydrogen Peroxide to the quality that the Germans could produce, could have been sorted we would have fired thousands of V-1 clones back across the Channel!

[centurion]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The unexploded mine that overshot was indeed found, made safe and then blueprinted ['reverse engineering' as we would now call it] and then the Germans came up with their own version.

Of course 'we' did the same with the V-1 to create the 'Loon'. If the quantity and required supplies of cordite required to launch the 'Loon' in the absence of Hydrogen Peroxide to the quality that the Germans could produce, could have been sorted we would have fired thousands of V-1 clones back across the Channel!

In fact the Germans experienced severe shortages of Hydrogen Peroxide and a number of weapons programmes that depended on its use were either cancelled or severely curtailed as priority was given to the V weapons.

I always thought the Loon was a post war development.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://www.designation-systems.net/d...1/ltv-n-2.html

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

I have the book by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding,published by Musson Book Company,Toronto,30 Lesmill Road,Don Mills,first published in 1971.To quote from the making of the movie.
"By the time the decision was taken to make the film in 1953 Lancasters were in short supply,and four Mark 7's had to be taken out of storage and specially modified.The actual mine was still on the secret list and the mock-up bore little resemblance,though the underhang is thought to have been specially accentuated for filming purposes to make it more obvious".
Also,if you want to see my dad (1st Div CMP driver from the service corp, and if you have the book,he's walking across Trafalgar Square directly in front of the camera,look on page 126,top picture.Buenos dias.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

They also used Avro Lincoln crews, and they had to retrain on the Lancs.

[centurion]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
They also used Avro Lincoln crews, and they had to retrain on the Lancs.

They should have offered the jobs to the Chileans. When I was at Rolls Royce in the late 60s we were still supplying Merlin spares to keep their Lancs flying - over Antarctica too! Incidentaly RR were also trying to sell the Soare turbo jet engine which had originally been designed for Britain's post V1 missile. When this was scrapped the idea was to use the engine as a 'use once and then discard' to boost the performance of some of the RAF's aging aircraft (the idea being that when one detected a Mig 19 in the rear view one could switch on the emergemncy boost engine on an underwing pylon and then drop it before returning to base for a change of underwear). Unfortunatly thanks to RRs devotion to the best possible engineering standards in all circumstances this disposable engine cost as much as a Conway or a Spey.

[Local Chap]

Latest news update:


OOPS!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I spotted that as well.

[Dean (Ajax)]

Hey Jon, just heard they are going to shoot a series "pilot" near Owen Sound...not in Meaford!!! About the Newfoundland Regt at Muncey (?)
They hope it will become a 6 part series..but as the CBC is involved..we all know there will be little money to make it.

However I got a call today and will assist them as much as I can..gotta keep it alive regardless of the money.

Dean

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

The significance of that night is slightly different to me - it was as older members of this forum may recall the night my uncle was killed piloting a Hampden off the Dutch coast while attacking German shipping. He was an Australian attached to 415 (Swordfish) squadron RCAF.

I have a page of pics on my site.

As for the film there was an article in Aeroplane Monthly some years ago about it with some comment about how a number of the shots were reversed so the aircraft would appear to be flying in the same direction.

I've also heard the stories about how the raid was relatively inconsequential to the Germans, but what a legendary event it has become to us in the ensuing years.

I read the Paul Brickhill book when I was about 13 and was totally engrossed.

The Lancaster had a flight engineer in addition to the pilot - Col is correct there. Incidentally the Temora Hudson flies with a "Co-pilot" whose duties are those of a flight engineer.

Keith..
I was on a parade with Joe mcCarthy taking the Salute in Clinton in '64..
He was very impressive..6'3" 250Lb.and enough gongs to blind you..
He retired from the RCAF in '68 I believe..
But he was American from NY .I think..and joined the RCAF before the Americans got involved in the big one..he took Canadain citizenship out and retired and moved back to the US ..
But a hero he was and looked every inch of it..I was proud to have met him..even if it was on a parade..
We were by no means drinking buddies but it would have been interesting to have been..imagine the stories..
Per Ardua Ad Astra.

http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,joemccarthy.html

And the Voodoo 101 has the throttles(two) on the left and palms down to operate..
The 104 Starfighter one throttle on the Left..more like a pistol grip..