Corowa 2008 Proposal

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all
I have been asked by well known Oz Carrier identity and restorer Keith Adam to forward his proposal for Corowa 2008. I don’t know whether this invokes any political issues for the Corowa event and I am not getting involved with politics if that is the case.

Keith’s proposal is that;

“To have large tracked vehicles attend Corowa, I propose to hire the airport from the Corowa Council so that tanks and other entrants can camp at the airport. The airport site will give space and enable the tank owners to enjoy their vehicles showing them in action. I know this is a diversion from the normal event but the tanks need space to move. The airport is a camping ground with showers, toilets and powered sites. There is a loading ramp on site at the airport”

Keith also proposes a one day trip for the tracked vehicles through the lanes and tracks adjacent to the airport on Thursday 13 March 2008.

At this stage Keith has 20 expressions of interest.

PM me for Keith's contact details.

Bob

[Tony Smith]

I think it's an excellent suggestion to provide an open area for the tracked vehicles to strut their stuff, but perhaps the Airport is not the best place for it. I've been involved with many airshows in NZ and grass runways and taxiways are a strict NO-NO for tracked vehicles, even driven gingerly. Even the mowed grass non-traffic areas would be significantly damaged by vehicle movements, with the result that "Somebody" will be asked to repair the turf. It is likely a premium for this damage would be added to the rental of the site.

Would it be a better idea to find a nearby Farmer with a large paddock that's due to be ploughed a week or month after Corowa?

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony
I don't know the full logisics of the airport site but apparently there is a lot of space that would be away from the actual runway sites. Keith will know and I'm sure he would appreciate any feedback.
Bob

[Euan McDonald]

Hey Border Bob, This sounds a lot like the break away event Keith organised many year ago with a fee of around $300 for the event. I seem to recall a division in the ranks them over the extra cost. Like everything how much?

[phoenix]

Ahh, that's where i've heard that name before!

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Euan
Don't know what happened in the past, I'm just passing on some information. Keith has full details. All I know is that tracked vehicle owners appear to be very restricted at Ball Park as far as their movement and storage. Sounds like a logical good idea to me. I know Project Phoenix, running or not, will be at the airport.
Bob

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Let's, please, clear the air a little here. I have been asked at his request to post the text of Keith Adam's Invitation regards this aspect of the coming event, the 'Year of the Tracked Vehicle'. This is a reduced copy of the current Invitation... apologies for the quality (or rather, lack thereof), but it's as small as I can make it and still remain legible. Authorised contact information is at the bottom.

[Euan McDonald]

Still confused about the proposal that Keith has put up. Does it have the support from KVE? I suspect the camp fee of $20 wont cover the hire of the airport or insurance, so there must be another fee such as a entry fee for spectators.

[phoenix]

I think that is the proposal that has been put to KVE unless i;m reading this wrong?

[Dinty]

G'day All, With refence to Euan's comment about this event being staged years ago, I went to Corowa in 2000, Febuary I think, only to find that it was a non event, 1500klm trip 4 nothing, anyway my whinge over, cheers Dennis

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by phoenix
I think that is the proposal that has been put to KVE unless i;m reading this wrong?

Can't tell you on that (not in the loop there), but if not, it's sure to be noticed now.

I've invited Mr. Adam to join the Forum, if he can make the time to contribute... up to him now!

BTW, Richard, sorry I haven't kept up with you, have been a busy boy. Have you something to tell us, hmmm? Will catch up soon, my lad.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Euan McDonald
Still confused about the proposal that Keith has put up. Does it have the support from KVE? I suspect the camp fee of $20 wont cover the hire of the airport or insurance, so there must be another fee such as a entry fee for spectators.

Euan, reckon we'll have that clarification for you shortly.

[phoenix]

KVE have a meeting on the 19th, so if it has been submitted to KVE, which is where it should have been submitted, we will hear something after that meeting I expect.

No news yet Geoff, Rebecca is rather impatiently waiting for the baby to make an arrival. She will be induced on Monday the 13th baring something happening before then.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by phoenix
No news yet Geoff, Rebecca is rather impatiently waiting for the baby to make an arrival. She will be induced on Monday the 13th baring something happening before then.

No worries on this front, mate, my two BOTH took their own sweet bloody time of it, and even then, we had to dig 'em out with the ol' Ka-Bar! (always knew there was a use for it)

Keep us posted, I'll backchannel you this weekend on other matters, ok?

Jif

[Ozzie John & Fiona]

G-day all, having just read about Keith's idea, I must say I'm disappointed that it has made the forum without being first discussed at a KVE meeting. As the President of KVE, I have not seen a proposal from Keith Adams, although I believe he has sent something to the KVE Secretary (Jan) for consideration at our meeting on 19 August.
At this meeting, we will be having discussions regarding the housing of all tracked vehicles to see if they can be accommodated in and around Ball Park Caravan Park, as this is the Corowa event recognised location. I am in discussion with the Council at this moment with regard to a separate location for large tracked vehicles to put on a mobile display.
There will be other issues in association with large tracked vehicles that are also under investigation. At this point in time, until after our committee meeting on 19 August, I will not have anything further to say about this matter except to iterate, that I am most disappointed that Keith has seen fit to raise his proposal without the organising committee of the Corowa event (KVE) having the opportunity to look into his idea.

John Hedges
President, KVE Inc

[lynx42]

Keep up the good work John and crew,(KVE).
Corowa Ball Park is the home and lifeblood of the whole event. I'm sure that the problems associated with large tracked vehicles can be sorted out. The 'Year of the Carrier' showed that the powers-to-be are certainly approachable.
Corowa is continuing to draw larger crowds and more vehicles each year and I'm sure that being central, at Ball Park, has a lot to do with it's success.
Regards Rick

[phoenix]

Any news from the weekends meeting john?

[Ozzie John & Fiona]

Thanks for your inquiry I'm working on a report from the meeting now, as I have a personal issue on the go at the monent & away from Friday. It may not be out until next week.
John

[Ozzie John & Fiona]

I realise now that I was mistaken when I stated that I had not seen a proposal from Keith, in the haste that I replied to this posting & had been most upset with it. I meant to say that I had not seen his latest proposal, which has some differences to his first one, prior to it going onto this forum. As I had previously stated, no decision would occur until after the KVE meeting on 19th August.

At that meeting, the committee decided we will not condone or support a separate event over which we have no control.

It was the option of the KVE committee that all activities regarding the Corowa event should be under the control of KVE Inc, which was set up for this purpose.

Alternative arrangements may have to be made for large AFV’s away from Ball Park Caravan Park. At this time KVE Inc does not have enough positive commitment from large tracked vehicles to be able to finalise the arrangements that we have commenced. KVE Inc is already looking into arrangements at the Airport and has been talking to Council in regard to that matter, as Keith is aware. Discussions are underway regarding the paddock next door to the airport, where large vehicles may be able to play. I am also negotiating the use of another recently offered large paddock, near the airport for AFV’s to play in during the week.

As for the rumour that tracked vehicles cannot camp at Ball Park Caravan Park, this is far from the truth. In fact, arrangements are in place for that to happen. Arrangements are also in place for additional float parking in the park.

Next year has the possibility to be a very large event and one not to be missed, the likes of which we may never see again at Corowa, due to the costs associated with transporting such large vehicles. Therefore we have to make sure it all goes as well as can be planned for.

We will most definitely be looking for extra helpers during the event. Jan Thompson has her fingers on the pulse in organising this.

As things progress I will give updates. Please feel free to phone me at home on (02) 62262281 with your thoughts.

John Hedges
KVE Inc President

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I've been thinking about this issue since the above was posted; it seems a shame the door has apparently been slammed shut on Keith's proposal for '08.

While I hasten to acknowledge that in the greater scheme of things my perspective is that of an Outsider, it would seem to me that Keith's proposal made an awful lot of sense from a logistical standpoint if nothing else.

I do know a little something about the logistical requirements of the transport, deployment and care & feeding of heavy armour and its crews, and my instinct, based upon my albeit limited exposure to the Ball Park, is that it is largely unsuitable for this purpose. This equipment needs a LOT of space to move about safely (I'm not just talking about 'display' movement) and its entire logistical train has to be right there with it, vehicle for vehicle. To me, the Airport seemed ideal, especially for the number of vehicles which seem to be anticipated for '08.

A good commander could deploy tactically within the confines of the Ball Park, but that's about it methinks... but of course I'll defer to the armour professionals among us for a final assessment!

As far as C&C responsibility is concerned, an idle question - is this whole show presentation concept not a collaborative effort anyway? That's been my experience in past, even regards much larger shows than this.

Once again, I readily acknowledge my Outsider's perspective; having said that, I would really like to see this thing work, with all involved giving their best!

[Keith Webb]

I readily acknowledge my Outsider's perspective

Jif, you're no outsider... you've BEEN there and you're one of us! You just live further away than most...

Wait 'till you see the latest Corowa DVD - that will prove it once and for all.

I hope to have it available soon.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

...thanks for that, Keefy! I think...

Are you insinuating you've permanently vilified me? Uh-ohhh.... like I needed the help!

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
...thanks for that, Keefy! I think...

Are you insinuating you've permanently vilified me? Uh-ohhh.... like I needed the help!

'Twas a tough job but someone has to do it.

Originally posted by Keith Webb Wait 'till you see the latest Corowa DVD -
I hope to have it available soon. [/B]

Hi folks ... just jumping in to ask Keefy something ...

Keefy ... will that ONLY be available in DVD? (I don't have a DVD player hence why I ask)

Karmen

[Keith Webb]

That's the plan... but I'll see what I can do for you.

Originally posted by Keith Webb
That's the plan... but I'll see what I can do for you.

Well mate, I don't have a VCR either Can't afford to spring for anything other than survival if I spring on cable and internet and I ain'r about to give those up. Not even for MLU . If you put clips on your website I'd be able to see some stuff that way though

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
Keefy ... will that ONLY be available in DVD? (I don't have a DVD player hence why I ask).
Well mate, I don't have a VCR either.
Karmen

Yappy, for YOU ONLY it will provided in the format of Talking Parrot holding up pencil sketches. You DO understand the accent of an Aussie Parrot? (Arrk! There's Jif, there's Jif! Squark!)

[Ian Pullen]

The President & Committee
KVE Inc

I am writing this in regards to the Corowa Swim-In to be held in March 2008 and request this letter to be included in the correspondence in and read at the next committee meeting.

I am writing this voicing my own opinions and experiences and by no means the views and decisions of the Museum I work at.

I have been in touch with various committee members over the past 6 months to assist with the considerations and requirements for the theme vehicles for next year.

I have also been in touch with many owners of tracked vehicles in an effort to gain additional thoughts as to what will be needed to safely conduct the meet.

The theme when announced caused an air of excitement throughout many collectors and enthusiasts around the country. Although this theme is essentially another "Year of the Carrier", it has with it an addition for the gathering of privately owned Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFVs). These vehicles are not able to be brought out often by owners, hence the excitement of getting as many together as possible in one place at the one time.

These vehicles due to their size, weight and particular driving characteristics, means that there will be some decisions that are to be made, which will not please everyone, to enable this theme to go on without disruption, damage or even serious accident.

Tanks are dangerous if things go unchecked. After discussions with many owners, they agree, are willing and more than happy to follow strict guidelines to enable their vehicles to be driven safely. As many owners are ex-military or have been involved with official parades etc, they understand the requirements, control levels and safety considerations needed.

I spoke to the President of KVE mid-July this year about many ideas in which the proposal by Mr Adam was brought up. By this stage I was already aware of the proposal anyway.

My initial thoughts were that the Van Park as a base for AFVs was plausible. I had already spoken to the Van Park owners about the location of the AFVs and their use at the park. This would allow the AFVs to use the track next to the river for daily use during a set time period.

Additional thoughts led to the requirements of:
a. getting the AFVs to the start position;
b. the actual street parade; and
c. the return trip.

These steps require additional planning and resources which have never been needed by KVE in the past.

I have recently been to Corowa solely to conduct a recon of the town to gain an appreciation of what would be in my opinion the best plan of action.

As an independent in this matter, I looked at the two scenarios. Both scenarios have been addressed in detail in attached documents accompanying this letter to KVE Inc for inclusion at the next meeting.

The factors considered were:
a. safety of pedestrians and spectators;
b. safe driving of vehicles;
c. the best ability of giving owners the chance to drive their vehicles;
d. ability of spectators to see the vehicles; and
e. security of vehicles.

I am a firm believer that for ALL the above reasons, the use of the facilities at the Airfield for AFVs is the only safe option. This opinion may not win many friends or supporters, but it is the only safe option.

Due to the cramped conditions at the Van Park, safe manoeuvering of AFVs is impossible. There is the heightened chance of accidents, or serious injury.

When you get many of these vehicles moving together, people will crowd to see.

As owners will face the cost of literally thousands of dollars each in transport and running costs, they should have every right as any other vehicle owner, to drive them. This will not happen at the Van Park. If it were to stay there, AFV entries will be down.

You cannot feasibly ask AFV owners to secure their vehicles at the Airfield and then billet themselves at the Van Park. I ask, would the committee do that with their own vehicles?

Other points on AFV movements I have enclosed with the attached correspondence.

The Van Park has always been, and always will be the heart of the GPA Swim-In at Corowa. Of that there is no doubt. But I also believe that as a group of enthusiasts, to say the ONLY the Van Park is the meeting, we really need to look at how big it has become.

No longer are ALL the activities there, not everyone can fit into the Van Park. For years now, people have stayed in the other van park, hotels, motels and B&Bs. The Van Park needs to be recognised as the base co-ordination centre. Everyone goes there at various times.

We need to accept that our hobby is growing at an amazing rate. As much as I hate to say it, at this rate we may even outgrow Corowa as a town sometime in the distant future.

The president alluded in MLU on 27 Mar that even the swap meet could be relocated to the Airfield.

The original rally organised by Mr Adam was almost a decade ago.

If there is a legitimate problem with his proposal, I request the committee to tell me and AFV owners who are planning to bring their vehicles, why they should not be given this as a viable option. This could be used as an annex to complete the weekend.

If the swap meet were to be moved to the Airfield, after the photo shoot everyone will already be in location. This would facilitate those who need to rush off immediately to attend it. An organised AFV rally could then take place in the fields adjacent to the photo area for the benefit of maximum numbers.

All this could be arranged with minimal effort by the committee who could oversee arrangements to suit members. Mr Adam has already said he will handle the arrangements.

If the GPA Swim-In is to continue to grow and become a truly international event, then foresight needs to be adopted to gain numbers, interest and future enthusiasts. The Van Park will always be the heart of the meeting, but it may be time to consider future growth.

As I have said to the committee in previous correspondence, I am more than willing to assist the committee in any way. This includes my offer to assist the president conduct a recon as discussed in July this year in addition to helping out with the actual event and helping with the control of AFVs whilst in location on behalf of KVE.

This has the potential to be the most exciting "Corowa" yet with the theme vehicle being tracked vehicles. We need to ensure it is remembered for the right reasons.

As discussed with the committee over the phone and in written correspondence, I will not base any of our entries at the Van Park due to safety considerations. Although the committee has allocated an area in the Van Park for some theme vehicles I still feel that there is no room to move a tracked vehicle with limited visibility that weighs MANY tons in, around or near other collector's vehicles. Let alone the pedestrian worry.

When I first wrote the "Considerations for AFVs in the Van Park" that was forwarded with the initial entry forms, I believed that this was possible. I now believe differently.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

I would like an explanation of the following ex. John Hedges.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"At that meeting, the committee decided we will not condone or support a separate event over which we have no control.

It was the option of the KVE committee that all activities regarding the Corowa event should be under the control of KVE Inc, which was set up for this purpose."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never realised that I belonged to an Association called KVE Inc. and that I was subject to its control. Ours and others attending Corowa in the past has always been voluntary and we had always acknowledged the efforts put in by Jan, John and others. There was never any CONTROL but a voluntary attendance to outings organised by the aforementioned people.

The decision that that KVE Inc. will not condone or support a separate event I believe is very confrontationalist. Surely a working arrangement would be far better for the attendees than a splitting of the whole event into two camps.

I don't know what personal or political issues are present here and I don't care. All I want to do is to continue attending Corowa without all this crap.

Seeing as KVE Inc. is trying to control me I would like to see a copy of it's Constitution or its Rules and Regulations or whatever its purpose is.

For the record our vehicles will be housed at the airport if that venue is available and obviously we will abide by the airport's rules and regulations. But we will not be dictated to by anyone or any organisation.

I have left one club here in Adelaide due to politics and self-interest groups and I am certainly not going to entertain more politics that interfere with my hobby, especially at Corowa.

Bob

[Ian Pullen]

I continue........

In addition to the possible 10 AFVs there will obviously be the ten semi trailers that have to get them there. Add that to 140 other vehicles, and it makes for a tight squeeze.

In addition as soon as one vehicle parks on Edward St (next to the Van Park and the parade start point) that road is effectively cut for AFVs. There is no way to get them to the start point.

The return trip if we were at the Van Park would effectively mean we have to come down the main street at a time of maximum traffic congestion. Then we have to secure the AFVs at the start point and get them back to the Van Park at a later time. All this has to be done as an organised move. I have already detailed the convoy procedures for both scenarios and sent them to the committee. The Van Park set up is not obtainable.

The Van Park track along the river is too narrow and at places too soft at the sides. There is a definite possibility that one of these vehicles may turn turtle. Then there is the problem, if there are no injuries, of recovery.

I honestly believe that the Airfield IS the solution. If people do not like this, then you have to seriously consider the pros and cons logically, without letting your heart get in the way.

This could cause a rift in the one event that solidifies us as enthusiasts across the country. Almost all the AFV owners I have spoken to are going to the airfield whether KVE certifies it or not.

We need to act as adults and get this sorted and back on track. John, my offer to be there for your recce is still there. Why not let Keith organise the Airfield on behalf of KVE and KVE send a committee member or representative to assist in the safe control. This would ease the organisational burden on you and the committee.

As I will be bringing possibly two AFVs to this event, I have a vested interest that it runs safely and smoothly. I ask is there a chance that KVE will at least talk to Mr Adam and discuss his proposal at length.

Many AFV owners are holding back entries pending this outcome, which is why KVE is unsure as to proposed numbers.

We as enthusiasts need to look ahead to enhance an already good thing, or we just hold back and not let it grow. Granted this would keep it low key and within the Van Park confines, but is it the way forward?