Ford Electrical Query

[Stewart Loy]

Hello,

I have a question for the Ford experts out there in CMPland.

I have a problem with my V-8 flathead in the U'Carrier. It was running fine a week ago, but last Saturday - no go!?

It is getting gas and air - but a cautious tug at the plug wire when the wife spun it over resulted in no spark. I am getting 6 volts going into the coil, but nothing out to the plugs. I need help.

I removed the distributor and cleaned everything. There is no sign of damage, no shavings in the bottom of the distributor. The plugs are good, the wires also new less than 5 runnings hours ago. The distributor was professionally rebuilt at the same time, with new coil and condensor. Noted Carrier expert Perry Kitson set the points and it used to run great.

The manual suggests swapping condensors - and I will try that next.

Following the condensor swap, the book points toward a coil replacement. Here is my question - I don't want to spend $90 US to get another Ford coil that bolts to the distributor housing. I would like to get one of those attachments that will allow me to use a more conventional automotive coil ( like the one on my little bulldozer - for $15) in place of the Ford specific one.

Who makes such an adaptor? Has anybody got a source for this part? I would like to get one in North America, Canada if possible.

Finally - does anybody have any other suggestions as to what be the matter with the engine that lets it run great one day - then nothing the next? (I am ready to put a 216 in the thing about now).

Thanks in advance for your assistance.


Best regards,


Stewart

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Stew ....sounds to me like you are out of coil oil....!!
MMMMUUUHahahahahaha...
Sorry Stew ..I couldn't resist it...Sounds like an open coil...Get your ohmeter out and Ohm out your coil....(The two terminals)...You will probably find the coil is open....
Find out why it is open....Over or uinder voltage on the primary side....or defective..broken internal winding...
Try a new coil but check your primary voltage when you get it running...Don't burn it out if your voltage isn't right...correct that at your voltage reg..you may have a coil that isn't right or needs an external resistor...Check it out...Let us know..
Cheers
The old flat head guy..

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Pull your coil wire from your dist and hold it to ground and have the missus crank it ...It should spark to ground...Make sure your engine ground and chassis ground wire are clean and tight...If there is no spark pull the coil wire right out and hold a piece of house wire,insulated with a pair of insulated pliers in the coil hole and check that for spark to ground...If that sparks it is your coil wire...If no spark it is your coil ,if you have the right primary voltage ...

[c. ladouceur (RIP)]

Alex,
Doesn't have coil wire- coil makes contact through brush.Are you refering to regular style coil ?
Cheers,Cliff.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Thanks Cliff..
I grabbed my Ford wadeproff manual and assumed that the coil-distributor was the same on the Carriers...
I see what you mean on the coil-brush setup on the carriers...Looks like a piece of Brit engineering.....
What a piece of poop...
Change the dist.for a CMP Dist-coil-voltage regulator and get rid of the original..

[Stewart Loy]

Originally posted by Alex Blair
Pull your coil wire from your dist and hold it to ground and have the missus crank it ...It should spark to ground...Make sure your engine ground and chassis ground wire are clean and tight...If there is no spark pull the coil wire right out and hold a piece of house wire,insulated with a pair of insulated pliers in the coil hole and check that for spark to ground...If that sparks it is your coil wire...If no spark it is your coil ,if you have the right primary voltage ...

Alex and Cliff - thanks for your thoughts.

I have been told that I may be wrecking the coil with too much voltage. I have direction to reduce full battery voltage to a mere 3.5 volts supply to the coil. Another Carrier owner starts on 6V, then uses a resistor to back it off to 4.5V for running.

I am told that this was to reduce arcing and material transfere at the points sets. How long does it take to cook a coil?

Fianally, with the coil off the unit - how to poke/prode the coil with my VOM to see if it is OK?



Stewart

PS - Alex, I just saw the "l" in your flat head handle ...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Stewart,

Here's a place to start if you're not already aware of it:

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/bboogaar/


...and try these guys too:

http://www.earlyfordv8.org/


BTW, is the coil the same one that's on the Ford CMP? If so, I've got one in the garage you could borrow; but in the long term, you'd best try to find someone like this guy up here:

http://www.fordcollector.com

Check out his service on coils and waterpumps.


Last question: are these electrics basically the same as civvie stuff from that time period, or are they unique to Ford Canada/the military production line?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
PS - Alex, I just saw the "l" in your flat head handle ...

Hmmm... Moderator could fix THAT in a jif...

[Mike Kelly]

hi Stewart

It sounds like you have the divers bell distributor , a cap on each end of the housing .......

Ford re designed the ignition system and the crab style dissy fitted from 42 onwards was better setup .

The British type system was different again . I am not sure what type you have

The big problem with the 4.5 volt system is , the standard dropping resistor cannot cope with the wattage . eg

The voltage regulator is putting out 7.1 to 7.4 volts , which means the resistor has to drop almost 3 volts at whatever amps , result is , the resistor gets hot , its resistance value rises , causing it to become in effect , a current limiter . The result is .....You lose spark . The resistor is usually a wire wound type on a ceramic former .

If your coil has been run without a resistor , it may be cooked .

To test your coil , use a multimeter on the low OHMS range , on the squat coil that fits on the divers bell dissy , there is a pigs tail grounding coil of wire underneath . This is from memory , put the leads between the terminal on top and the pigs tail and you should see a few OHMS , around 4 I think .

You use OHMS law to work out simple electrical stuff :

Current = Voltage divided by resistance .
voltage = current X resistance
resistance = Voltage divided by current

I suggest that you make up a dropping resistor that can handle the wattage , or maybe mount the standard resistor on a heat sink to keep it cool . eg. a lump of metal with fins on it , these are used in electronics to keep transistors cool , easy to buy .

Mike

[chris vickery]

Stewart, have read the many responses and opinions of the guys. To answer your question, in my experience w/ flatheads it takes very little time to "cook" a coil. I did one in my KL welder truck in no time flat. ( too many beers that day, not paying attention). You can get the adaptor you seek from Mac's antique Ford Parts in Lockport, NY to use a more modern stle 6v coil. The diver's helmet style dist. is a piece of crap as far as I'm concerned, that's why Ford ditched it. Tempermental at best. NOS coils of this vintage are unreliable as with anything old. If using the original, must use an external resistor to reduce voltage to approx 3.5v. If you buy a new stlye 6v coil, most are already internally resisted to avoid burning your points. No.1 reason Ford flatheads run like shit is because of distrubutor/coil problems. Fuel+air+spark= running engine. Leave one of these out and you have zip. If I were you I'd use your dist. as a boat anchor and purchase the 2nd type "crab" dist. that utilizes the external type coil as on CMP trucks. The location of the coil on the diver's helmet lends itself to overheating of the coil as well. Hope this helps, and by the way, does the wife drive the carrier too?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Mike said it best .....

It sounds like you have the divers bell distributor , a cap on each end of the housing .......

Ford re designed the ignition system and the crab style dissy fitted from 42 onwards was better setup .

That is what I would do....
That is the weirdest Distributor-coil set up....

[Phil Waterman]

There is a hot rod conversion unit for the front mounted distributer that is available. I believe there is also an electronic ignition unit that Mallory puts out that will put out a spark that will fire the plugs without the side electrode I've got the link to the site someplace will find and post.

Cheers

Oh yes, you can also check the coil on the orginal style by wetting your finger and putting it on the coil brush contact while opening and closing the points by hand. If you land more than ten feet away the coil is ok.

[Keith Webb]

If you want to convert to a crab type you may need a spacer and different timing cover - the distributor is a two bolt installation.
I had the helmet type and it drove me crazy!

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Stew ...
If you hurry you can have this installed and burning before the Chatsworth gig on the 28th...

http://www.flatattackracing.com/



See crab distributor....And fuel injection....and headers.....and ....and.....oooohhooohhhhhhh.....A vision......I'm having a vision......Sparks flying from tracks....New world record in 1/4 mile held by Universal Carrier....
(Notice there is an Aussie outlet....Keith...pay attention...)

[Stewart Loy]

Gents,

Thanks for your assistance on this subject.

I have a couple of irons in the fire to try to get the Carrier running for the Oshawa show - this weekend.

I will keep you posted on the results.


Best regards,


Stewart

[Stewart Loy]

.. all is peachy!

I called my friends at Dennis Carpenter Ford Reproductions in NC and they were able to provide the adaptor to use a regular cylindrical coil instaed of the divers helmet style coil. This coil is mounted on the engine side cover railing, and is even getting some airflow in it's new location.

The wiring received a good going over, and I have weeded out the extra hot lead to the coil, and put a resistor in that drops the battery voltage to 4.25 at the coil. I went really wild, and now the generator even charges the 6 volt battery!

I was unable to attend the OMVA show, but will have the Carrier at the Crumlin Sportsmens Club 21June03 for the Service Rifle Shoot at 9:00 to 4:00, and perhaps at John Adamiaks on early August.

Thanks to everyone who added a thought or two - I appreciate your assistance.


Stewart

[Rhett Fisher]

Hi Stewart,
I see that you already have several well informed replies re. your problem but I'll shove in my five pennyworth anyway!
As far as I'm aware, all the 6v flatheads,early or late, use a nominally 4v coil with a wirewound resistor between it and the ignition switch. This resistor is made from Eueka wire which has the property of increasing its resistance as it heats up. This has a very useful effect in basic ignition systems, i.e, the primary current is shared between it and the coil. When the engine is idling the contacts are closed for a relatively long time, so the primary current tends to increase giving the coil a hard time.
However, the resistor counters this so the coil does not cook.
On the other hand, when the engine is at high revs the resistor cools, allowing plenty of current to convert into high speed sparks.
Another handy effect of this system is that if the ignition switch is left on with the engine stalled, the resistor stops the coil going into meltdown if the contacts are closed. I think the resistor should measure about 0.75 Ohms at 20c.
Great care must be taken when setting the contact breakers on 8 lobe cams, as one set 'makes', and the other set 'breaks'. The contacts are NOT 180 deg. apart, which cleverly increases the coil saturation ( Dwell ) time to 36 deg., giving a better spark.A proper setting fixture is best but I have had good results using a vice to hold the distributor, wiring in a coil, plug, battery and resistor, using a drill to turn the dist. shaft at approx. 2000 RPM, using a dwell meter or 'scope to check the results.
A later development of the Ballast Resistor is the cold start bypass system i.e, when the engine is cranked over the heavy starter current drops the battery voltage from, say, 6v to 5v. A separate wire from a terminal on the starter solenoid is fixed to the coil primary terminal, bypassing the resistor, so now there is 5v to a 4v coil and, hey presto, big fat sparks to fire the old girl up! Clever huh! This system overcomes a problem known as coil robbing which some folks may have experienced by the engine firing just as you let go of the starter switch.
Sorry if all this comes over as a lecture but i've always found that things are much easier to fix if you know how they work in the first place!
Good luck,
Rhett Fisher