permit for road travel?

[Piper]

HI fellas

So our carrier has been invited to a local cruise-in night and I'm trying to determine if there is a specific category for a trip permit. I went to my local MTO Office here in Huntsville ON and they didn't know; I called the MTO in Toronto and the carrier doesn't fit under their regs. I've heard that UCs are being paraded in Ottawa ON so I'm wondering if they are getting trip permits, no permit.. any "paperwork" etc.

Thoughts?

[peter simundson]

But there is no permit for road travel. Has to go on a trailer.
If it's only a couple of miles you might get away with it. And in the parade at a slow speed you won't get troubled.
Problem is insurance, You can't get it. Then it has to have an ownership.

Many years ago I tried to get the DTC to license Carriers for on road use.
After many discussions they said if they are insured they will license them. I was in the middle of getting that done when MLU members started crying not to do it because they were happier in hiding.
Some tracked vehicles like bulldozers don't require plates as they are normally off road and are covered under the Construction Company's policy.

Peter S

[Hans Mulder]

Slow moving vehicle sign or ATV insurance will at least cloud the waters sufficiently to get there and back.

[carrierbarry]

Sorry you guys have so many problems to be able to drive on the road.
Check out A & E 2012 on the forum.
(M2U00145)
In England it is much simpler.

barry

[Seatyger]

Hans and Peter are pretty much on the money with respect to the requirements (or lack thereof).

Due to the unique status of the Carrier it could be categorized more along the lines of a 'Road Building Machine' or 'Off Road' vehicle under their regulations as opposed to a Motor Vehicle under the Highway Traffic Act. You would be amazed at what some of the farmers out here get away with as an 'Implement of Husbandry'.

Insurance would be a necessary for your own protection, whether it comes under an offroad vehicle such as an ATV or business equipment like small construction companies and their Skid Steers, Landscaping machines etc. And Insurance Companies are a world unto themselves.

A Slow Moving Vehicle sign would also be mandatory. You could attach it magnetically so its non permanent. I would think the only thing that would raise an eyebrow would be the fact that it is a tracked machine.The Carrier doesn't have a heavy enough footprint to tear up the asphalt so it really shouldnt be a cause of concern.

And of course the Rules of the Road apply. The really sad part is the fact that because it sits in a great grey area of the Acts and Regulations it could be grossly misinterpreted by non vehicle/mechanical/historically inclined officials!

However if you really want to go untouched and unnoticed just put a couple fake tin can 'Tuner' exhaust tips on the back, a non functional whale tail spoiler on the back and neon lights illuminating the tracks. Throw a couple dumb assed big as a house speaker boxes in it and you can get away with pretty much whatever you want!

You do raise an interesting issue though, and if anyone has specific detailed questions I would be more than happy to make an official enquiry to the Ministry to get an answer from the Horse's mouth. It could take a while for a response though.......

Jim

[Stew Robertson]

Just register it under 194---- ford serial no what ever and go get a historical plate once you have the plate insurance will follow
Typical bullshit! what they don't know wont hurt them
If you are stopped show them the pap ers

[cletrac (RIP)]

Farm tractors in Saskatchewan don't need any of that. You just drive up the road and your farm insurance covers you!

[Bob Carriere]

Farmer down the road used a prime mover....huge 6 wheel drive with double tires at the back....10 wheeler.

Stripped the frame to bare power train, installed a hydraulic driven corn cutter head in front and a huge farm trailer sillage box on a dump mechanism at the back.... no roof open cab.....

His deal is..... be buys corn standing in the field late Fall or late Winter when farmers can't get in to their own field and harvests like a crook....... sues the stuff for beef fattening operation........ goes like hell on the road.... runs in muck like a pig and does not get stuck.

.....and he drives on the road..... extra wide...... just with a RED Slow vehicle triangle at the back....... no hassle.

Bob C

[greg anderson (RIP)]

If the municipality closes the road or street in accordance with proper procedure as for a parade one may conclude that the highway legislation no longer applies -consult your lawyer and remember that a lawyers advice is only worth what you pay for it

[Robin Craig]

I would like to wade in and set the record straight.

As Greg has pointed out a "parade" is just that, the road is closed etc.

Otherwise NO.

Put it on a trailer.

It is not an agricultural vehicle.

It is not a "road building or maintenance vehicle".

You have no place or right being on the road.

Registration of a vehicle in the province of Ontario is a priviledge not a god given right.

I don't want to sound harsh but them is the facts.

I personally have looked at the Highway Traffic Act 14 ways to Sunday as I have the opportunity to drive
some much more suited vehicles for the road, ones with full lighting and turn signals and horn etc AND rubber pads in the track
which means the track itself doesn't bear on the road, but alas no.

I have driven a carrier on the road in Ottawa but for a parade so them is the breaks.

Let me ask you another question, if you did decide to flout the law and attempt to drive it down the street and there was an accident (let us assume not your fault) what would you say then when asked for ownership and insurance by the nice Mr Plod?


R

[Ralph Volkert]

I dont suppose calling it an antique Ford snowmobile would help? Like an early Bombardier...

[Stew Robertson]

just about as warm

[RichCam]

Guys,

Thanks for all the information and discussion regarding insurance. Piper and I have opted for the "safe" version of trailer transporting the carrier to/from the Legion and the Canadian Tire parking lot. The loading, chaining and unloading process is going to be much more time consuming than the actual transit time. I do concur, trailering the carrier is wisest option - not the most spectacular.

Anyways, the weather forecast looks great, we should be able to get some nice pictures and we might be able to include a couple of the carrier in dark, with the lights on, when we tuck it back into it's enclosure after the outing ends at 9pm.

Regards, Richard

[Hans Mulder]

The last option is to get the plates as suggested as a vintage vehicle (or even get a temporary operating permit) provided you just give the basic info (year, make, model, VIN/serial: 194X, Ford Motor Company, Universal Carrier, Serial: CT123456) without mentioning it is a tracked vehicle.

[Jack Innes]

Robin makes some very valid points which should be heeded.

It should also me mentioned that a carrier on smooth pavement is very easily put out of control - not the best thing in close proximity to a parade. The details are a little foggy but I think what became the last use of a carrier on public pavement by the active military ended up with said carrier pinwheeling well into someone's living room on Avenue Rd. In Toronto.

While the tracks are unlikely to harm the pavement, they will, in most cases, leave white marks that are likely to draw the attention of some whiners.

I think the only legitimate registration in Ontario would be as an ATV like many of the Iltis vehicles came with. A viable precedent has been set there. This could allow an insurance policy that would not vaporize as soon as you were in trouble & the Insurance people saw a way out in that you misrepresented the vehicle. There are limitations on the use of an ATV on the road though.

Another point to consider is that once it has an Ontario title the 13% HST will apply when you register it and again if you sell it.

( My only defense here is that my wet blanket is green!)

[Robin Craig]

In Ontario, if you have an ATV registration, unless your municipality permits it, an ATV can not be driven on the road. An ATV under the highway traffic act is defined as a vehicle that one sits "astride" of.

The humble Carrier fails that litmus test, so does a Kawasaki Mule. We have protested with the Plod that a Mule loaded with fence posts and fence wire and an SMV sign owned and operated by a registered farm is an implement of husbandry. They say NO.

We got popped for that one. No ticket but stern warning. We are trying to get the Ontario Federation of Agriculture to have this changed.

R

[Robin Craig]

Carriers "polish" the stones in the asphalt and give the impression of marks on the road. This is what the white marks are. Unless it is ultra hot a carrier wont tear the surface, but boy is it easy to make them skate on it.

Most municipal roads department Czars find it easier to say "NO" to anyone with a tracked vehicle for a parade as they think of bulldozers with cleated track. They don't understand Carriers.

Try telling them you have rubber track such as a BV 206 and they just look at you in a perplexed fashion.

R

[Jack Innes]

[QUOTE=Robin Craig;167053]In Ontario, if you have an ATV registration, unless your municipality permits it, an ATV can not be driven on the road. An ATV under the highway traffic act is defined as a vehicle that one sits "astride" of.

I too questioned the "sitting astride" definition of an ATV when I asked the local MOT office to change the registration on my Iltis from the ATV one it was issued on release from the government to a regular car registration. After several calls to head office they were able to do it. No answer was forthcoming on why they thought you could sit astride an Iltis.

I have not looked into it but does anyone know what they classify an "Argo" or such off road machines that you definitely sit inside? Actually an Argo with the track option is very similar to a carrier - except for the floating option of the Argo.

[chris vickery]

Just remember fellas, you can call it whatever you want, justify it however you interpret the Law, or otherwise do what you like but, at the end of the day you are breaking the rules. All it will take is ONE TIME and the future is wrecked for the rest of us.
The first time a carrier owner gets popped for no plates, no insurance etc, the first bystander who gets injured, the first lawsuit which gets denied coverage by the insurance company etc etc.
When it comes to insurance, you guys should all know better. Insurance companies are slimy bastards by nature who weasel out of whatever they can. Give them a reason to deny coverage because you lied or misrepresented your vehicle and you are in a world of legal and financial difficulites on an exponential scale.
If I may illustate using an example;
You take your carrier to a parade being held by "name your group"
I have heard all too many times that the parade organizers have coverage.
You drive your carrier accross town to the parade and get in an accident. The organizers will run high tailed claiming you were on your own time.
Now, if you make it there OK and have an accident while on parade, who is covering you? The Legion who invited you? The Municipality or City government? Your local OMVA? Your own insurance???
I think too many of us take it for granted and hope for the best, afterall it will never happen to me....
Food for though gentlemen.

[Robin Craig]

Jack, dont go there re an Argo, it is the same plate as an ATV.

I agree with Chris.

Unless the road is closed to traffic as a bona fide parade, it aint legal, period.

R

[Andrew]

Just a heads up for you guys here in Canada. Hagerty does insure tracked vehicles. You have to talk to Hagerty Canada and not Lant insurance as they don't have a clue. I called Lant (they do Hagerty insurance)originally and they said no, but i have a buddy in the USA that has insurance on their half-track thru Hagerty. When I called Hagerty Canada they asked me right after asking them do they insure halftracks "is it an M2 or M3" lol and said they have more than a few insured

Andy

[Harry Moon]

.... or try a temp permit for your 42 Ford Convertible....
The most dangerous thing to do with a carrier is to drive on steel. Like the ramps and deck of a trailer. I was only a few feet away from the worlds largest V8 powered chain saw once and winching is now highly recommended!

[Robin Craig]

Oh boy, you making me feel really old now, steel on steel, not a pretty sight.

Sometimes people just have to learn the hard way.

R

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Oh boy, you making me feel really old now, steel on steel, not a pretty sight.

Sometimes people just have to learn the hard way.

R

One of the neatest scenes I had seen in a long time was Pinky Parker's Mk1* laying on it's side in front of his house after loading it on a flat deck and then pulling out of the driveway in a hurry ,while turning to head down the street..Needless to say centrifugal force and a steel trailer deck did the rest..
If we all said Please maybe Bruce will post the picture and an example of what not to do when transporting your tracked vehicle..I must give it to Bruce though..this was years ago when he was young and Foolish..
Now he got old too fast and smart too late.
No Carriers were destroyed in this story and no dummy's were killed.

[Harry Moon]

We finally got affordable club liabilty insurance for Western Command a number of years ago. Most Parade and event organizers want public liability insurance for groups to participate and your truck insurance doesn't count.
We got it through the National association of automobile clubs of Canada.
http://naacc.ca/home.html

[Bob Estabrooks]

My Mk 2 is registered as "MULTIPURPOSE" . This is in the same catagory as a asphalt roller, that is its weight does not change signifigantly. It is insured through SILVER WHEELS,now controlled by Haggarty.

I did register the Club's Mk1. When trying to explain to the DOT clerk what a UC is and that it had never been registered as it had been bought from surplus and used on a farm, she said "oh it is a farm tractor". I said right on.

Bob