MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 11-10-18, 02:47
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Surrey British Columbia
Posts: 129
Default

Bob and David. Here's 246 airborne with 245...Two of only three RCN HUP-3's that Canada bought in the Spring of 1954. Piasecki only built 30 of the HUP-3's. So a pretty rare version. Note only 246 carries Labrador's sort of...kind of ..SeaHorse crest. It would seem from these photo's, that the R-975's were not that reliable. Not exactly sure when or where these photo's were taken. But can only have been a month or two into the voyage. BTW..Good notes about the cooling fan being charged over. The cooling fan has direct implications for AFV installations.
Attached Thumbnails
LZA HUP-3  245 & 246  Aug 57.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-10-18, 02:45
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default 975-46

A couple of quick points about the helicopter - engine application.
In researching the helicopters two interesting ideas showed up. First, one source claims that the reason the -46 engine was used was because the US military had a surplus of these available. I am not sure what other significant application rthere was for -46 engines in the 1950s, though radial engines were used in other versions of helicopters.
There was also comments about -46 engines having problems, but little clarification as to what the problems may have been. While I am not a radial engine expert my inclination is to believe that radial engines ( like many aero engines) are high maintenance machines. I have heard many anecdotal stories about engine failure in this type of engine ( oil leaks, blown out spark plugs etc etc, but not just Continetal Wright) can anyone add more information about reliability, or problems not associated with ground machine applications?
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 15-10-18, 01:54
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Surrey British Columbia
Posts: 129
Default

Bob Phillips As you say...aircraft style engines are high maintenance machines. The case is thin aluminum castings with the steel cylinders bolted onto it. They are highly stressed and easy to break. For those installed in MV's, you have to keep the idle at 1000rpm to prevent main bearing failure due to lack of oil. They also break if they are over-revved. The allowable P&W R985 maximum rpm is only about 50 or a 100 rpm below what will hurt the engine. Oil in the lower cylinders ...aircraft or tank...has removed many a cylinder head..never mind entire cylinders. In answer to your question..aircraft type engines require far greater attention to handling. Many of the broken engines are the result of mishandling by the operator. Another hint...don't use the engine to slow your tank descending a hill. It can easily over-rev the engine and blow off a jug. According to the operators manual ...that's what the brakes are for. A lot cheaper to replace the brake pads... than replacing the engine.
Attached Thumbnails
r-975-m4ankengine-107w-2.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 15-10-18, 23:49
Perry Kitson Perry Kitson is offline
metal urgest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 399
Default

Helicopter gearboxes, and by extension engines, are exposed to far greater torque than an aircraft engine and prop pulling air. When a helicopter is hovering, and especially close to the ground, there is a horrendous amount of resistance to moving the air, which can result in "over torquing" the drive train.
I am guessing that helicopter radials could suffer the same fate as tank radials when loads were too great.

Last edited by Perry Kitson; 17-10-18 at 01:26.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 16-10-18, 02:46
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Surrey British Columbia
Posts: 129
Default

Yes, exactly. Ground Hover torques the drive line to the max. In another question about the engine...In flight, it's sort-of level.
Attached Thumbnails
Hup-3.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-11-18, 03:33
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default 975-46

Related to Robs earlier post (37) I talked with Stew Robertson who was Bill Greggs mechanic about the two radial engined vehicles in the collection. While it was 30 years ago he recollected that the engine in the Sexton required a complete OH and so he tore it down and rebuilt it. This was a machine from England not one fron South Eastern Equip in Georgia. It was a long process especially trying to source parts from Toronto surplus yard, Levy Auto Parts. The Grizzly was running very roughly when it arrived from England and two cylinders, pistons, rods were replaced. Oil pressure was erratic but when repair work was completed it ran fine. This suggests damage from hydrostatic lock perhaps when attempting to start, but this is only a guess after 30 years.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-11-18, 04:45
rob love rob love is offline
carrier mech
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shilo MB, the armpit of Canada
Posts: 6,346
Default

Bob
Interesting info on the two engines. I get so much conjecture and hearsay on these two pieces I don't know what to believe.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-12-18, 06:13
Jordan Baker's Avatar
Jordan Baker Jordan Baker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 3,371
Default

Found this while doing some late night CAM reading.
Attached Thumbnails
0D6A54B0-1823-4679-B1C8-29164D3CFD25.jpeg  
__________________
Jordan Baker
RHLI Museum,
Otter LRC
Universal Carrier MKI*, 1942
C15A-Wire3, 1944
Willys MB, 1942
Dodge D23c, 1942
10cwt Canadian trailer
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-12-18, 19:05
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,522
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Baker View Post
Found this while doing some late night CAM reading.
Excellent, Ram tank material!

If anyone is wondering what CAM magazine is, see this thread:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28361

H.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-12-18, 01:08
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default 975-46

Great poster Jordan!
I should send all interested readers, to an excellent WW2 era report on the R975 recently posted on the Sherman Site. It is the most detailed history I have ever read and I only discovered it a few weeks ago. Many interesting bits of information including;
- many failures due to overheatine, hence C4 styled cylinders
- significant issues with excess fuel during shutdown , therefore degassr shutoff valves
- over reving of engines (engine as brake) spells quick death to engine
- as C1 and C4 share 85% same parts many C1s converted to C4s during major overhauls
and much more!
BP
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 18-12-18, 03:09
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975

In a previous post reference was made to the Bill Gregg collection now under the TLC of Rob L. There are some good photos of some of the major items including unrestored condition pics if you search up Bill Gregg photos at the Wellington County Museum and Archives.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 30-01-20, 03:32
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975

Just a couple of pictures to add to these older posts, an experimental flight with a helicopter using a 975-46 engine and a closer look at the shroud used on a -46 engine.
Attached Thumbnails
piaseckir975.jpg   r975-46.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 30-01-20, 04:01
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975 rear main bearings

I have included some photos of the 975 rear main bearings. I am looking for some expertise from the forum readers if you can help. Both the C1 and C4 engine use very similar bearings- and while I have a large number of misc bearings the only difference I can see is the addition of the large slot/notch on some of these bearings. Can anyone verify whether C1 and C4 bearings ( which have different parts numbers in the manual) are in fact interchangable? You can clearly see a narrow keyway and the larger notch in the photos.

Click image for larger version

Name:	bearing1.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	94.2 KB
ID:	111710
Attached Thumbnails
bearing2.jpg   bearing3.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 30-01-20, 15:23
peter simundson peter simundson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: mississauga, Canada
Posts: 1,145
Default Slot

Maybe that large slot on the Wright 975 is an increase in the oil gallery size to get more moving through.

Peter S
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 30-01-20, 20:13
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,522
Default HUP - but not of the CMP variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy View Post
Bob and David. Here's 246 airborne with 245...Two of only three RCN HUP-3's that Canada bought in the Spring of 1954. Piasecki only built 30 of the HUP-3's. So a pretty rare version. Note only 246 carries Labrador's sort of...kind of ..SeaHorse crest. It would seem from these photo's, that the R-975's were not that reliable. Not exactly sure when or where these photo's were taken. But can only have been a month or two into the voyage. BTW..Good notes about the cooling fan being charged over. The cooling fan has direct implications for AFV installations.
Spotted last December: UH-25B (HUP-2) C/n 253, BuNo 130076. Location: Baris Business Park roadway roundabout in Rotterdam, The Netherlands. This aircraft was originally used by the US Navy and was later transferred to the French Navy. It is owned by Baris since 1973.

(I can post this here - a HUP is a HUP, eh? )

Click image for larger version

Name:	79371912_1014684562202085_541257787301167104_n.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	59.7 KB
ID:	111715

Because of the drive-by nature of my own photo I added some more NMPs for clarity.

Click image for larger version

Name:	80325075_1014684612202080_3401083665675976704_n.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	54.8 KB
ID:	111716 Click image for larger version

Name:	79425522_1014753502195191_6632405540636983296_n.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	56.4 KB
ID:	111717
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 31-01-20, 02:10
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975 rear main bearings

I think you make a good point Peter, clearly the large channel around the bearing exterior is an oil channel ( you can see the small holes leading to the interior) so sticking a notch which presumably holds something must restrict or enhance oil flow?? don;t know but at some point will pull a bearing out of a battered crankcase to see.
Hanno, in my book a HUP is a HUP and more importantly in this day and age they have both survived the scrap man! Thanks for the post!
B.P.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 25-02-20, 02:18
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975 rear main bearings

To follow up my last post on rear main bearings I offer a photo of the -46 version, as I have done for most of the other main parts. Note the much heavier flange area. For those not familiar with workings of these engines, the bearing flange sits flush in the crankcase but the projecting threaded portion supports the camshaft.
Click image for larger version

Name:	bearing-46.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	109.0 KB
ID:	112238
On another topic, a couple of photos of nine mystery boxes, dug out of storage after almost 70 years...what could they be??
Click image for larger version

Name:	mysteryboxes.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	166.9 KB
ID:	112239
All export packed in waxed cheesecloth over heavy cardboard cartons...
very nice indeed!
Click image for larger version

Name:	mysteryboxes2.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	149.2 KB
ID:	112240

Last edited by Bob Phillips; 01-03-20 at 13:19.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 25-02-20, 02:35
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975

A beautiful sight for a Sherman enthusiast!
Attached Thumbnails
mysteryboxes#3.jpg  

Last edited by Bob Phillips; 01-03-20 at 13:12.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 26-02-20, 03:27
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 249
Default

A beautiful sight, indeed! The military packing used back in the day was incredibly good quality.

We had a couple of visitors come by the museum from BAIV, a military restoration company in the Netherlands. When they saw our wrecked Sexton R975 on display, they said the cylinders are going for around 2000 euros each now! So good find.
Malcolm
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 27-02-20, 03:06
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975

Malcolm, your appreciation is very much appreciated! Also a very unique smell as they were packed with thick heavy grease inside and outside.
I want to share a few pictures with you, reminiscent of those showing your beat up Sexton engine. This was a motor I tore apart, it looked great on the outside but not so great inside. You can see half a fractured link rod that was laying inside the motor, the piston was smashed to bits, I took out a couple of handfuls of aluminium chunks and look at the smashed up crankcase and the hole/slot cut right through the cylinder base as the rod came out! I suspect this was hydro static lock up induced, as it was a bottom cylinder right beside the oil sump. Must have been noisy for a few minutes as it disintegrated!
B.P.
Click image for larger version

Name:	smashed1.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	395.7 KB
ID:	112291

Click image for larger version

Name:	smashed2.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	353.9 KB
ID:	112292

Click image for larger version

Name:	smashed3.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	300.5 KB
ID:	112293

Last edited by Bob Phillips; 27-02-20 at 03:25.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 28-02-20, 20:37
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 249
Default

That carnage looks horribly familiar!

Amazingly, our crankcase looked intact though dye penetrant may have shown some cracks.

And that bell-mouthing of the lower liners as the rods thrash around makes it very difficult to pull the cylinders.

Malcolm
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 29-02-20, 03:37
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default R975

While this engine will provide a few spare parts, I see its future as a coffee table! Not much need to check cracks with this beauty, and, yes it is the worse and most smashed up radial I have ever encountered.
B.P.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 29-02-20, 23:04
Stew Robertson Stew Robertson is offline
Staghound
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Rockwood on
Posts: 265
Default

Hi Rob
the sexton engine we rebuilt after Bill got it. It sat in the shop for almost a year before we got all the parts to finish it
It was not a hard job just took time . At the time I had and mechanic that worded for CP AIR help me with it
After the rebuild and break in of about 10 hrs we reinstalled it and put 400 or 500 gallons of fuel through it and it run flawless in the sesquicentennial parade in Kingston in I believe 1985
the biggest problem the engine had to be cranked by hand 52 revolutions of the crank handle before starting with the starter
That is what happened to the engines in the sexton and the grizzly in Shilo
oil compression or hydraulic locks and they scattered or bent a few rods
WHO NEEDS TO READ A MANUAL
lots of luck with the rebuild, Levy's are not around anymore
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 10-03-20, 02:11
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 268
Default

Thanks for your comments Stew.
In my earlier post (#73) I put up some pictures of the rear main bearing as used in the C1/C4 engine. I also floated the idea that even though the bearing is separately identified (by part number) for either C1 or C4 engine -perhaps they are/were interchangable. I have not yet pulled a bearing out of a crankcase to check, but I did find a sealed box labelled Continental Motors Corp, with intriguing and slightly contradictory labels, the outside indicating a C4 bearing the inside wrapping indicating a C1 bearing. See the photos.
A case of messed up packaging or strong indication about bearing interchanbability??
Click image for larger version

Name:	rrbring1.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	180.9 KB
ID:	112425

Click image for larger version

Name:	rrbring2.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	204.5 KB
ID:	112426
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016