Ford/Marmon-Herrington MGT's

[nuyt]

Hi Hanno,

About your picture on your website (see below) of the Ford/MH Machine gun truck in Dutch Surinam:

I found an article by JJ Nortier in Stabelan Magazine, saying that after Surinam Governor Kielstra complained to the Dutch govt in 1939 that he had no money and means to defend the colony, he received NLG 100.000 for which he bought six of these vehicles.

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/marmonherr...k_nei.html#19c

HTH
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I found a letter from BOB SCHUTT, "CAMPELLO", M/S 979, MONTO 4630, QLD, Australia who owns a 1941 Ford Marmon-Herrington LP3A Gun Tractor & No 27 Limber plus 1942 Ford-M-H LD6-4 1/2 ton ex-NEI.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Nuyt,

Thanks for the info - I did not know the number of machine-gun trucks delivered to Surinam. I am surprised by their cost!

As far as I know, all three of the ½-ton trucks listed on my NEI Marmon-Herrington trucks page were Light Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Trucks, intended to "protect emergency landings, temporary landing fields, fuel and ammunition dumps, etc.".
Thanks to you we know six were delivered to Surinam. Col. Herrington's personal notes do mention manufacture/delivery of "LLDMG5-4 Units for N.P.C." in 1941, but I have not found any references to numbers delivered. We do know a number of these must have been diverted to Australia, as proven by Bob's surviving truck.

Hanno

[nuyt]

Hi Hanno,

KNIL had some experience with MGT's, of their own make.
In the late thirties the four Infantry regts on Java (1,2,4,6) all received a motorised Pantser- en Luchtafweer (PLA), or Anti-tank and Anti-aircraft company, that was equipped with 6 Boehler 4,7cm AT guns (with Vickers or other? tractors) and 9 light trucks with watercooled .50 Colt-Browning, fitted on an ex-naval mount.
By January 1942 there was a total of 42 PLA-wagens as these vehicles were called, divided over the 4 regts (15 in PLA-1, 9 in PLA2, PLA4 and PLA6 respectively).
Several pictures of these trucks can be seen in various publications and two main types always appear: one clearly a Chevrolet light truck (1940 model?), the other type looks much older and quite obsolete. I am not sure if this was also a Chevrolet (mid-thirties-model?). Enjoy.
Nuyt

[nuyt]

here it is: Chevrolet?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The top one is a 1940 Model Chevrolet civilian pattern truck, note the chrome grille and the wider top strip in 1940 cf. 1939.

The bottom truck is ..yes of course it's an Opel! Those hubcaps give it away..I knew I had seen these before, and they have 'OPEL' on them. It's possibly an Opel P4 Lieferwagen, Model 396 I think if it's a 1935-on Model. Ahem! Adam Opel AG exported worldwide under orders from the Commissar for the Five Year Plant, i.e. Goering, from 1935. Rhd Opels were exported everywhere including the UK, and this would have been a Lieferwagen imported as a chassis-cab by General Motors Java..see above. My figures show that Opel exported 10,676 Opels to the NEI and Indonesia from 1912 to 1962.

In the area of course the Phillipines drove on the left, as did Hong Kong, Malay States, Burma, Singapore, [Thailand?], Papua - New Guinea, Australia, NZ, Brunei, and I think Shanghai [and China?].

[Bill Murray]

Nuyt:


The last photo is, I will bet a case of beer on, an Opel P4 fitted out as a Kubel type car. Based on the passenger car chassis, not a small truck.
Now, someone has to investigate, If my ID is correct, how in the bloody, bloody did a RHD Opel get down to the NEI?????
Parallel question, I had no idea the NEI folk drove to the left. Is this so?

Further on the subject of Dutch vehicles, albeit not necessarily NEI vehicles, if you do not have these books, try to get them.

Nederlandse militaire voertuigen by Van Popta & Schulten
No ISBN # but it was published in 1978 by Van Holkema & Warendorf in Bussum.

Daar Komen De Canadezen by Peter Veldheer
Published in 1982 by Gisjbers & Van Loon in Arnhem.
ISBN 90 6235 041 0

On various other CMP and local product, try to get:

The History of Ford in Australia by Norm Darwin.
Eddie Ford Publications Newstead, Victoria Australia 1986.

The History of Holden in Australia by Norm Darwin.
Eddie Ford Publications Newstead, Victoria Australia 1983

For Danish CMP product, try to get a copy of Automobilet I Haeren 1908-1983 by Frank Pedersen
As far as I can tell, it was published, probably as a private venture, by Skandinavisk Motor Co. A/S in Glostrup, Danmark

I have not yet found some other interesting stuff in my cellar but I do know I have a history of DAF from the beginning to the mid fifties and several Marmon Herrington original catalogs from the late 1930s to the mid 1950s that may add to this field of research.

I hope everyone understands that I do not want to stray too far from the CMP theme but there is really a lot of inter-connection between the pure CMP vehicles, the modified ones and the more or less civilian ones that were supplied to a wide range of countries both within and slightly outside the former British Empire. As automotive/military vehicle nuts, I think we should try to include all of them in our research.

Bill

[nuyt]

Hey Bill, thanks for that reply!

Opel P4's they are. You are right and you deserve a crate of beer (or jenever?)

The NEI indeed drove on the left, and all cars and trucks were rhd's.

Now, how did that Opel get there?

Pre-war NEI military were focused on Europe for equipment etc, but I think it is not possible that the Opels were coming directly from Germany, since they were rhd.

Opel= GM however and GM had excellent facilities in the NEI (Priok, Batavia/Jakarta's port) and had a strong market postition in commercial vehicles. My best guess is that GM Priok imported Opels from Germany prior to the war (sep 39) and that they were converted to rhd locally.

Another theory would be that GM sold this design (was the Opel P4 a indiginous German design?) all over the world and possibly under other brand names.

But, the following picture just proves that Opel rhd's were available in the NEI. It is a picture of a Opel Olympia of the VAC or Women's Drivers Corps in Batavia 1941. This volunteer womens' unit was trained and sponsored by GM Priok!

Thanks about the book list. I have the first one you mention, but it gives no info on NEI trucks. Such a pub. is missing.

Btw, me too I do not want to stray to much from CMP history. If anybody feels I do, please give me feedback?

Thanks again!

HTH
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My best guess is that GM Priok imported Opels from Germany prior to the war (sep 39) and that they were converted to rhd locally.

Actually, I can confirm that Russelsheim and then Brandenburg Plants exported rhd vehicles around the world including to the UK. Exports of Blitz trucks to the UK started in 1935 Model Year and continued until 1939. So, this was indeed a FACTORY rhd chassis. The 1938-on Model Oly38 Olympia would also have been rhd, similar to the UK imports for instance. The chassis appears to be a P4 Lieferwagen 1,3-liter Model 396.

[nuyt]

Thanks both of you: now we know KNIL had light AA cars on Opel P4 chassis. Some references suggest these kinds of cars were called "autolette" in NEI.

David, do you know what other vehicles Opel exported to Priok?

Kind regards,
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I have not yet found some other interesting stuff in my cellar but I do know I have (...) several Marmon Herrington original catalogs from the late 1930s to the mid 1950s that may add to this field of research.

I hope everyone understands that I do not want to stray too far from the CMP theme but there is really a lot of inter-connection between the pure CMP vehicles,

Bill,

Actually, Ford/Marmon-Herrington and CMP vehicles are related. This is confirmed by the quote from the AEDB Design Record below, and also by the picture I found in a pre-WW2 Marmon-Herrington brochure. Said picture shows a short wheelbase gun tractor prototype built by M-H for the Canadian War Department on a Ford COE chassis - this is what I believe the predecessor of the CMP Field Artillery Tractor. So please dig out those original Marmon-Herrington catalogs - like you say they are bound to add to this field of research!

Regards,
Hanno


"Immediately after the war was declared, the Ford Motor Company of Canada were charged with the responsibility of developing a 4x4 truck for army use. Obviously, they had very little experience in this field [...] Consequently they went to the Marmon-Herrington Company, Indianapolis, who in peace time supplied conversion material to convert Standard Ford 4x2 trucks into 4x4 models for various commercial peace time usage. [...] these joints were unsuitable [...] [the weight of the more or less cab over engine design and heavy army wheels/tires put too much load on the front axle joints.] To solve this problem, "Bendix-Weiss and Rzeppa joints were chosen by General Motors and Ford respectively [...] [They later realized that the "Tracta" type was better but they were already tooled up with the above types, so left it as it was.] (The AEDB Design Record, Vol. 4, p. 27).

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

Only for you, mi amigo, did I dig into the cellar again and bear in mind we are in full spring season and the spiders are very hungry!!

In any case, the "several" MH catalogs turned out to be two plus a large number of photos. I crawled through your MH site and did not find one pic there that is presented in these two catalogs so, I will list the catalog # and date and if you don't have them I shall have to figure out how to copy them for you.

#1 is titled "10 years Before Pearl Harbor", Form #441001-2 and was published in 1944. 25 pages, about 80 photos all military.
#2 is titled MH All Wheel Drive Pictorial News Vol 8 No 1, form #390320-1. 16 pages and about the same number of pics but only 2-3 pages on military trucks.

I had forgotten about the connection with the CMP prototype program, chalk that up to a 12 year absence from the research I keep bringing up or that I drink too much Scotch Whiskey when I sit up here typing. Your choice

I had also forgotten that MH developed the prototype for the SEEP (amphibious Jeep) and turned it over to Ford for production.

It also reawakened another question I have had for a long time and that is what ever happened to the very large shipments of 6X6 7-9 tonne trucks that were exported to Iran. Well, for that matter also what happened to the scout cars & armoured cars which were delivered starting way back in 1932 it seems. I have never seen any info on these vehicles other than some references by Bart. In the photos in the first catalog are shown trucks ready for shipment to Iran and in one there are at least 50 and in the other looks about like 40. The larger trucks were mostly gun tractors and ammunition/personnel carriers.

Let me know if you have these catalogs, please.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There is indeed a connection as we have discussed before...as you all remember M-H used Timken-Detroit components. Wait for the forthcoming book for more clarification but good points everyone!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
In any case, the "several" MH catalogs turned out to be two plus a large number of photos. I crawled through your MH site and did not find one pic there that is presented in these two catalogs so, I will list the catalog # and date and if you don't have them I shall have to figure out how to copy them for you.

#1 is titled "10 years Before Pearl Harbor", Form #441001-2 and was published in 1944. 25 pages, about 80 photos all military.
#2 is titled MH All Wheel Drive Pictorial News Vol 8 No 1, form #390320-1. 16 pages and about the same number of pics but only 2-3 pages on military trucks.

Bill, pal - thanks for defying the hungry spiders in your cellar. I in turn will now have to defy them in my attic to look up what I have!
Seriously, I have (at least) a photocopy of "10 years Before Pearl Harbor", but I don't have "MH All Wheel Drive Pictorial News". What is depicted on your large number of photos? I'd be interested in scans of any M-H pictures of vehicles manufactured for the NEI and/or Canada.

I had forgotten about the connection with the CMP prototype program, chalk that up to a 12 year absence from the research I keep bringing up or that I drink too much Scotch Whiskey when I sit up here typing. Your choice

I blame it on the case of beer you just won from Nuyt

[nuyt]

Now we're at it: here is another one:

From the same old article by Claassen (Mars et Historia) that came up with the Maple Leaf tractor. It is a 4x4 Ford commandowagen with winch, that according to Claassen came available after war broke out (so after dec 1941). If this is true, where was it ordered? The commandowagens served with the artillery battalions and possibly in other units.

Hanno, might this be a Marmon-Herrington delivery?

Enjoy.

Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Nuyt:

Can you rescan that one again?
My thought would be it is a MH chassis with local bodywork possibly.
They did an awful lot of this type of vehicle prior to 1941 for the US, Belgium, Holland and I am sure some others.

That appears to be a "terrain roller" on the front, did it have a winch mounted there or elsewhere also?

As to my MH photos, sadly none are of Dutch deliveries. Almost all are US. As soon as I get a new scanner I will start posting them.

Regarding the query of CMP vs other vehicles, it seems more and more as we get into this that they are all totally entwined as they have common origins, in many cases were built to similar specs and formed the core vehicular supply of so many allied nations.
I would really like to get the opinion of our respected Webmaster, though. I think he would agree but would like to see it.

Given my personal passion for North American sourced/derived etc. vehicles used not only by the US and Canada but even moreso by other armed forces, this type of thread is a gold mine for me as it just is not covered anywhere very well. But...I don't want to impose.
Bill

[nuyt]

Hi Bill, here is another scan (it is actually a scan from a fotocopy, so there are some limits to quality...)

You are right about the terrain roller, there is no visible winch on this particular vehicle. Was it at the rear?

The roller makes it I think definitively a US-sourced vehicle and not a DAF pre-war conversion. Also the body style/cover make it different from Dutch-sourced Fords. (and those would have had to be delivered/shipped before May 1940).

Checked Bart Vanderveen's directory and p 334 shows a Ford11Y/MH (albeit as a Bomb service truck) which was a 1941 commercial chassis.

Probably a cash paid direct Netherlands Purchasing Commision order to MH...Hanno?

Oh, I forgot: it seems to be a rhd vehicle. Did MH do that?

Kindest regards,
Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Hej Nuyt:

Methinks Hanno or David are a little better equipped than I on this one. I have more questions than answers it seems.

Anyway, yes MH supplied RHD on a great many contracts. I cannot find my written research files just now but I believe that they either had a Canadian subsidiary or purchased the chassis from Ford or GM or whomever from their Canadian operations.

This one is baffling in that it is obviously a 1941 model, hence it was not bodied in Holland. At the same time, I have no photos of that particular body in my MH collection so I am presuming it may have been done in NEI. It is not really a MH "style".

Then, the over large wheel/tyre equipment leads me to believe it is at least a one tonner, not a 1/2 tonner as most of these command cars were.

Hopefully our two buddies have finished dinner by now and will give us further input.
Oh, sorry about asking for a rescan, didn't realize it was a photocopy.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The Marmon-Herrington subsidiary that acted as distributors/vendors in Canada were THE CANADIAN TRACTION COMPANY LIMITED of Windsor, Ontario.

RETHUNK: I have had a re-thunk on this and I thought that I ought to add to this as I have some information that might interest:

'In early 1939, Sydney, NSW, Ford distributors, Hastings-Deering Limited, loaned the Australian Army 28 Ford V-8 Utility vehicles based on imported components, CKD, from Windsor, Ontario. Reports suggested that they performed well and were proven ideally suitable for Army use. As a result, the Australian Army issued a specification for a new type of truck based on the Forward-Control British Ford chassis [possibly the Ford Thames Model 7V with 30 h.p.V-8]. Ford Australia prepared these vehicles as artillery transporters, range finders and associated equipment haulers. A second type of truck was based on the ‘American’ 3-ton Ford chassis, and equipped with Marmon- Herrington conversions to provide a 4 x 4 configuration, [although these were surely Canadian Ford chassis], and converted into a facsimile of the 1939 Marmon-Herrington trucks that used 30 h.p. U.S. V-8 Ford engines. Both these designs were in service by March 1939: the former hauled an 18-pounder Q.F. Mark IVP (Australian) Field Gun' Source: Norm Darwin's History of Ford in Australia book P. 107. I am certain here that Ford of Australia imported the M-H components and converted them in Melbourne rather than acquiring complete chassis. The purchase of components from CTC in Windsor would have meant lower import duties of course as well as being more acceptable politically.

'Almost immediately after the Commonwealth of Australia declared war on Germany, Ford of Australia, the Ford of Canada subsidiary, began supplying passenger and light commercial vehicles to the Armed Forces, including Canadian-import Mercury sedans, Ford V-8 sedans, British Ford Prefect sedans, and V-8 Coupe Utility trucks, Model 01C, Ford, USA, 1939 Model with 30 h.p. V-8, [which formed the basis of the Ministry of Supply Model W0C1]. These were fitted with General Service and Wireless Telegraphy bodies, in accordance with the British W.D. specifications presumably. Conventional Pattern 2-wheel drive trucks were also used: 112-inch wheelbase 1939/40 Models as 12-cwt. Utilities and as 15-cwt. G.S. or Wireless Vans. The 1-ton 122-inch wheelbase chassis was used as G.S., Wireless, Office and Battery vehicles. The 134-inch wheelbase was rated at 30-cwt. and carried G.S., Kitchen, Water Tank and Field Artillery Tractor bodies, as Model LP3 and 3A. The 3-ton chassis came in 158-inch wheelbase and 176-inch wheelbase variants. The former was used for Office, Stores, Workshop, G.S. and Breakdown trucks [Model LP1 & LP2], and a Marmon-Herrington 4 x 4 F.A.T. Model LP5 with 3-inch A.A. gun. The larger chassis was used to mount bodies for buses, large G.S. and 800-gallon gasoline tankers, with either M.-H. 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 conversions' : P.107 again. I am not convinced that the 01C were US-sourced, and prefer C01C from Windsor, Ontario.

My comment:

'The extensive use of Marmon-Herrington conversions for Australian Ford M.C.P. trucks of various sizes some time before 4 x 4 C.M.P. trucks were landed is of considerable significance in view of Stan Ellis’s suggestions to the Canadian Department of National Defence in the autumn of 1939: Ellis was of course a Ford man through-and-through.

Further use of Marmon-Herrington conversions was the indigenous Australian Scout Car built on a Ford 4 x 4 truck chassis, to create the ‘Dingo’, 245 units being produced'.

Further comment: note the adoption here of the F.C. or COE Fordson chassis..this was in effect creating an Australian 'CMP' because Stan Ellis took the US COE chassis [1940 Model from memory] and adapted M-H front-drive to it to satisfy WD Spec. 36, and thus mimic the Guy Quad-Ant and MCC Quad. It was found by Windsor that the 1940 Ford front axle was not strong enough for the new design of military trucks that became the DND-pattern and so the Timken-Detroit front axle that was used by M-H and also by GMC and Chevrolet in Pontiac, Flint and Oshawa, and by Thornton was adopted instead. As we know for production Ford of Canada subsequently went over to a Ford component for the front axle on the 4 x 4 trucks.

At this juncture may I ask The King of the Past Threads, King Hanno to dig up the threads about Ford and GM axle components so that we can acquaint our members who have joined since please? Also because I still get confused!

[nuyt]

check out this site about AMEP and mr Michael Cecil. It talks about restoring a Ford 11Y Battery Staff Car. Does anybody know this gentleman or can anybody give a clue if this was the same vehicle?

Thanks
Nuyt

www.users.bigpond.com/AMEP/aboutus.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
The roller makes it I think definitively a US-sourced vehicle and not a DAF pre-war conversion. Also the body style/cover make it different from Dutch-sourced Fords. (and those would have had to be delivered/shipped before May 1940).

I have not seen this vehicle before, thanks for bringing it back from oblivion, Nuyt!

As stated, this is a 1941 model Ford, and thus could not have been shipped from the Netherlands - it must have been converted by Marmon-Herrington in the USA. The front roller is typical for US vehicles of the early war period (M3A1 Scout Car and Half-Track vehicles).

But, if you compare it with the 1940 Chevrolet/DAF Pantserafweer-geschut (or PAG) trekker (anti-tank gun tractor) shown below, I draw the conclusion that it was converted along the lines of the conversion DAF carried out on Ford and Chevrolet chassis/cowls before WW2. I can only imagine the NPC taking the blueprints to M-H to order a batch to be built along DAF's design as far as practical. Take a 1-ton right-hand drive chassis/cowl converted to all-wheel drive, add a simple open-top body with canvas overhead cover, three rows of seats for the 6-man gun crew plus driver, an ammunition locker at the rear, and add a front roller instead of the two small wheels - order filled!
Do we have any clue how many of these were converted?


(Source: http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gdaf.htm)

[nuyt]

Hanno, the 1941 Ford Commandowagen looks definitely inspired by the DAF light AT tractors. But where were they ordered/built:
- in Australia on Ford/MH chassis...
- in Canada or
- in US with MH?

What we need is a detailed order list of what the Dutch ordered at MH, but where do we get it?

Btw: Wheels and Tracks 74, p 23 has your DAF picture mirrored (actually showing 4 similar vehicles) with the following caption:

"Some of the Chev light AT tractors were equipped with 4wd, front support wheels and other options. They were probably destined for the NEI but we have no pertinent information on this or on their eventual fate"

I vaguely remember having seen one DAF trekker in the Command Car role on a picture of a KNIL parade, but am not sure.

Total numbers of these Command Cars?

If it was an artillery battery staff car and there were 3 batteries in one KNIL MOTORISED art. Afdeling or Battalion of which there were 1 Howitzer, 2 Field, 1 Mountain (the other Mountain Art. Battalion being probably non-mech) in Java:

a grand total of at least 12!

Not counting extra batteries formed as war neared, AA battalions, the Madoera Mobiele Stelling Artillery Battalion, the (mainly non mechanised) art. units on Java and other islands and any other units (Infantry Battalions?) that might have wanted them...

Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wonder whether these were sourced originally from Ford of Canada as they were rhd? They seem to have had a monopoly on rhd Ford export chassis. I will ask my pal Norm Darwin if Ford of Australia at Geelong exported any vehicles to the NEI.

[nuyt]

Thanks David, could you show the picture to your pal to see if he recognizes the vehicle?

Hanno, I dropped MH company a line to see what they've got to say...keep you posted.

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

My friends, I hope I am not exaggerating, but here is another Marmon-Herrington mystery (I just cant stop):

Encycl. of armoured cars by Duncan Crow and Robert Icks, 1976
is a bit outdated here and there but contains a huge stack of info.

p 127: US section, Post-WW1 miscellaneous and improvised cars:

"Marmon-Herrington, 1938, T13-type scout car w/rear of hull cut off and replated, ring mounted .30 calibre mg rear of hull, .30 cal mg pedestal mounted on right outside, .50 calibre mg on high pedestal behind right front mudguard, radio-equipped,sold to the NEI"

What's that, a T13-type?

Lets look, same book, p125:

"T13, 1937, Marmon-Herrington 4x4 chassis, rounded hul rear, all-round tourelle rail for mg skate mount, horizontal radiator shutters, 38 soft plate vehicles built as National Guard training vehicles. (Measures.)"

Now what, did KNIL buy a number of pre-war MH improvised scout cars? When was that and how many?

Traditonally KNIL is said to have had a number of White Scout Cars, with similar armament (.50, .30s). Numbers are conflicting however. Some credible KNIL historians say 25, others say 30 Whites were received (they were negotiating for hundreds more and I have seen proof that at least 50 were ordered by mid 1941).

Officially KNIL listed by Jan 1942 a number of 40 Scout Cars (no reference to make or name). Also Martens and De Vries in their book on KNIL small arms mention both White AND MH Scout Cars as armed with Colt Browning w/c .50's.

In the actions on Java in March 1942 I can count in the best study on that (by NOrtier) at least 37-38 Scout Cars with different units.

So if this is true that besides White's KNIL owned some other Scout Car type, what did it look like? I have never so far seen any other type of scout car in KNIL service then the White...

Does anybody have a picture of a MH T13 (as in National Guard) or possibly of this particular NEI-delivered vehicle? I reckon if this is true (and it is really worthwhile I think to follow this lead) they might have been delivered pre-war and numbers would be maximum 10-15 cars (or else they were buying off the shelve left overs since they were desperate enough).

Thanks.

Here is a bonus:

While wading through the files of the Netherlands Purchasing Comm. in the Dutch National Archives in The Hague a couple of months ago, I stumbled on this story: The NPC was offered by MH, now delivery of its tanks were delayed, some other form of vehicle: the peculiar MH halftrack Armnoured Car: Here it is.
O, the NPC I think did not accept the offer...

Kindest regards,
Nuyt

[Robert Stafford]

As far as I know from reading, research and discussions with other M-H collectors here in Australia, Ford Australia (Geelong, Victoria) did not export to NEI.

I own (in Australia) a 1939 Australian Army 3 ton Ford M-H, and same for 1940 and 1941. All are open cab artillery tractors built to pull a gun limber and the 25 pdr. field cannon. I also own a 1942 Ford M-H 6x6 hardcab that was a crash recovery truck (a friend in NSW has same with soft cab to pull an AA gun). All these Aussie Army M-Hs are of course RHD.

Most if not all of the Aussie Army M-H Fords were I believe shipped from Canada as chassis and assembled by Ford at Geelong using local bodies, both hard and soft cab. The Ford archives here were, sadly, destroyed long ago, so little remains, but I've been through does still exist. I have photos (another source) of 1940 and 1941 M-H Ford army gun tractors on the assembly line at Geelong, and being given final checks before handover the Aussie Army for service. I am currently restoring my 1941 M-H gun tractor, and its chassis components have a "C" prefix, so it was shipped from Canada; it's powered by a a Canadian flathead.

I have read in histories of Ford Motor Co. that all North American exports to Commonwealth countries were handled by Ford Canada; nothing came out of Dearborn.

I also have a photo of a 1937 Ford with M-H conversion in field use by the Australian Army, so they were at least trialing these trucks well before the major purchases of 1939. I have come across nothing to suggest that the Australian Army ever used any M-H converted Fords smaller than 1.5 ton (American designation), and in fact I've never heard of even a 1 ton in military use. The only 1/2 ton wartime Ford M-H in Australia to my knowledge, owned by a collector in Queensland, is a diverted 1942 NEI truck, with much the same cowl and windshield treatment at the mystery truck in discussion here. It was bought from M-H direct in Indianapolis; M-H did huge orders for the Dutch Purchasing Commission in the early stages of the war.

In the US, I own a 1939 Ford M-H 1/2-ton pickup and a 1946 Ford M-H 1.5 ton (both civilian rigs).

You can forget about going to Marmon-Herrington for information because they trashed their archives when the moved from Indianapolis to Kentucky. I've been this route, researching material to write a history of the company. As far as I've been able to determine, the only extant, worthwhile body of M-H documentation and photos is held by the Detroit Public Library, and it is a goldmine. I have over 50 photos of various trucks, tanks and prototypes from the mid-30s on up.

Busy at work, so this is a little disjointed, but I feel several of you have got the story slightly wrong on Ford Australia and the Australian Army's use of M-H trucks. I'm still trying to piece this fragmented history together myself.

Robert Stafford

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks from my part Robert! It would appear that M-H supplied the NPC direct, although whether the Ford chassis were sourced from Windsor, and thus the complete vehicle from the Canadian subsidiary is a point of discussion. Ford have always maintained that there were no rhd US Fords after the Model T, until the Taurus although rhd Lincolns were produced pre-1942 at least. That said did M-H convert the basic Ford chassis with rhd steering components? One answer is whether the engine installed in Australian M-H chassis are US-sourced or Canadian [different serial numbers of course]. Can you assist here please Robert? Hanno? The problem here is that engines may have been transplanted several times.

Nuyt, can we agree that in the absence of any official Ford subsidiary that there would have been one of the private companies that you mentioned that would have handled preparation and delivery from the docks?

[nuyt]

Thanks Robert, for the great info!

Do you know if the Detroit Public Library has info on the NPC orders? One of us will have to book an extended holiday then to Detroit...can we toss?

Otherwise, if I can make it in my schedules, I will try to visit the Dutch national Archives again on short notice and look for the NPC shipping lists that should at least partially be there.

David, the private company that shipped Fords to NEI was most certainly Lindetevis-Stokvis. This was one of the huge Dutch colonial trading firms that - though in different clothes - still has traces today (after many mergers and takeovers etc). I checked the Rdam Public Archives some weeks ago for the Stokvis branch (that was in Rotterdam just around the corner, Westzeedijk area) looking for their pre-war DAF and other exports to NEI, but to no avail.

The other half, Lindetevis, (van der Linden en Tevis?) was in Amsterdam I think. Within the NEI they had headquarters in possibly Batavia, but they had huge facilities in all major ports afaik. A picture of L-S in Batavia late forties shows some lines (but by no means impressive) of newly delivered vehicles.
However I think, L-S mainly supplied the civilian and public non-military markets, though from 1940 on (under state of emergency) they must surely have been involved in the military contracts.

Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Nuyt!

I checked Norm's Ford book again and unless they are miscaptioned there are photos of a 1939 Ford 1-ton 'half-door' GS truck with roadster cab as I would callit, and a 1-ton Battery Staff, Wiresless utility on a 01Y chassis.

I have just found the 1940 and 1941 engine numbers [and thus serial numbers] for Canadian Fords by calendar month. I assume that the 1941 T.1L was the Carrier? The 1940-on listing of engine types confirms that there were 'LHC' and 'RHC' versions of every engine type.

This brings me to the suggestion that I contact Sandra Notarianni, the Ford of Canada historical consultant and ask her if she knows of any sales of chassis to Marmon-Herrington from Windsor...to Windsor in fact! Judging by what Robert was saying the M-H components were sourced from Canadian Traction although the Timken-Detroit components were imported from the Timken Axle Corporation in Detroit by CT. Can we assume that if the Australian M-H chassis came from Canada that the NEI components did as well?

[nuyt]

So we know 2 facts:

-there were some 1-ton Ford conversions in Australia and staff cars
-none of them was "exported" to the NEI

But since there was a growing level of military cooperation between Oz and the NEI they might have been delivered under some sort of military aid agreement as was sought in many areas by the NEI with Australia.
After all, there is proof that Oz delivered Vickers 7.7 mm MMG to the NEI and possibly other stuff.
At the AWM search site I did not find any details on Australian military aid to NEI, but I am sure there was some.

For instance read the article by Bussemaker in the AWM journal.

Nuyt