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  #691  
Old 07-10-21, 01:47
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default HOLDERS, Watch ZA/4250

I was just going through some old notes on this part and rediscovered an oddity.

Every so often, one sees one of these HOLDERS with a thin disc of grey felt, or perhaps cork, placed at the back of it, over the three mounting screws.

Were these thin pads an actual production/supply item, or were these just ‘local level fabrications’, to reduce rattle of the pocket watch in the HOLDERS?

David
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  #692  
Old 07-10-21, 02:03
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
I was just going through some old notes on this part and rediscovered an oddity.

Every so often, one sees one of these HOLDERS with a thin disc of grey felt, or perhaps cork, placed at the back of it, over the three mounting screws.

Were these thin pads an actual production/supply item, or were these just ‘local level fabrications’, to reduce rattle of the pocket watch in the HOLDERS?

David
I think there had to be a felt or cork backing. Otherwise the watch flops about in the case no doubt straining and ultimately chipping the socket at the top. My question is whether the watch was removed to wind it...which would be a very often occurrence. If so the fragile threads on the case would no doubt cause trouble very quickly (and it's not an easy item to remove and replace). On the other hand it is very difficult to pull up the knob and wind the watch while in its case. The 52 set probably would not be that bad but the watch and winder (not to mention the case itself) is not very accessible on Mk.II 19 sets.
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  #693  
Old 07-10-21, 08:30
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
I was just going through some old notes on this part and rediscovered an oddity.

Were these thin pads an actual production/supply item, or were these just ‘local level fabrications’, to reduce rattle of the pocket watch in the HOLDERS?

David
My 2P worth thinks it was local. I had bought an unopened box of 6 watch holders and upon opening there were just the holders, no extra bits. I've found no documentation on field changes with the holders or stores numbers for the backing. Looking at the many photos on google where the holder is visible none have padding. I think the solution (has been verified) was to remove the offending watch and store safely in a padded pocket.
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  #694  
Old 07-10-21, 12:05
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan View Post
My 2P worth thinks it was local. I had bought an unopened box of 6 watch holders and upon opening there were just the holders, no extra bits. I've found no documentation on field changes with the holders or stores numbers for the backing. Looking at the many photos on google where the holder is visible none have padding. I think the solution (has been verified) was to remove the offending watch and store safely in a padded pocket.
I'd agree with "added by the user to stop it rattling". The GS/TP (General Service/Trade Pattern) watches that were probably used later on came in a variety of case thicknesses (also stem lengths) and would have needed some sort of packing to avoid vibration affecting the movement.

The original watch was the "Watch, W/T, Non-Magnetic" in a chrome plated iron case (to reduce any effects of the magnetic field from the power supply dynamotor(s) on its timekeeping), and was actually cheaper than the standard pocket watch. Later they used 'B' series watches (both of these types were manufactured without bows (specifically for use in holders), and I think to a specified overall size (the ones I have are reasonably consistent in terms of thickness).

The original watch holders were plated brass, but volume requirements led to the introduction of the bakelite version (which retained the same designation and stores code).

Long-stemmed watches probably won't fit the WS19 Mk.3 (fouling the power input connector), which is almost certainly why the holder was fitted to the front of the supply unit (where it is much easier to wind and set the watch without having to remove it from the holder) on the Canadian set. (I know my W/T Non Magnetic won't fit in the holder between the connectors on a British WS19 Mk.3, other watches are fine.)

(My father commented that the issued watch did not keep good time and that he used his own (a gift from an uncle - and quite how he managed to hang onto it given all the forced migration to Russia and then travel to Iraq is something of a mystery) that watch would have stayed in a pocket.)

Best regards,
Chris.
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  #695  
Old 07-10-21, 16:19
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Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is offline
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Default Holders

The Aust. W.S. 101 has a brass watch holder which is finished in a very dark non-reflective blackish colour. These holders have a very fine threaded cap that requires some care when fitting the cap onto the base, it would be so easy to cross thread if too much force is applied.
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  #696  
Old 07-10-21, 16:58
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kelly View Post
The Aust. W.S. 101 has a brass watch holder which is finished in a very dark non-reflective blackish colour. These holders have a very fine threaded cap that requires some care when fitting the cap onto the base, it would be so easy to cross thread if too much force is applied.
That's the equivalent of the W.S.1 (Battalion to Brigade (and Artillery) set) - in the days when wireless was big, heavy and very expensive. The holder is probably blackend brass - the British sets used nickel plating, I think, as a finish. ZA.4250 Holders, Watch - Brass, Nickelled, Dia. 2.1/4 in.; fitted on W.T. sets with which Watches, W.T. are issued; to take Watches, non-magnetic, W.T. (Priced at sixpence in 1940 VAOS.)

They would have been replaced by the Bakelite version to reduce the use of brass and simplify manufacture once the use of radio took off and the war went mobile. The stores code remained the same.

Chris.
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  #697  
Old 07-10-21, 18:01
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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This is proving most informative!

For almost 50 years now, I have seen many World War Two Wireless Sets, which were equipped with a Pocket Watch Holder. The vast majority of these have been of the wartime Bakelite design, but I have seen one, or two pre-war issues done in the mentioned black finished brass. In all instances, this holder has been provided for use by the Wireless Operator to store their Pocket Watch while on duty. The Pocket Watch in question would have been the standard issue G.S.T.P. watch, built to common specifications by many manufacturers. This watch was an item that could be purchased by any service member, with cost charged to his payroll. Somewhere I have a document to that effect, giving the VAOS Number and actual charged cost, which was around $5.00 or $10.00 Canadian during the war.

These G.S.T.P. Pocket Watches were great at growing legs and running away, so the smart Wireless Operator would have it wound and set when coming on duty, place it in the HOLDERS while on duty and retrieve it when coming off duty.

I have been looking more closely at the 52-Set over the last 24 hours and, Surprise, Surprise, it is different.

The Master Parts Lists for the 52-Set provide the usual detailed illustration and the following Description:


WATCHES, Non-Magnetic, WT, similar in design to average pocket watch. VC 7563 C.M.C. 108-012


The Parts Listings in the back of the Operator’s Manual shows 1 Watch marked off under ‘ANCILLARIES’ and notes it being “Mounted In Case On Receiver Panel.”

Page 17 of the Manual holds the comment, “On the panel is fastened a watch holder which contains quite a good watch. Be sure that you do not remove it accidentally.”

Bruce Parker’s assessment of the locations of the HOLDERS, Watches on the 19-Sets is Spot On. The Mk II location is God Awful to work with and the Mk III a huge improvement.

On the Wireless Set No. 52, the HOLDERS, Watch is up high on the Receiver Top Panel. A standard G.S.T.P. Pocket Watch will fit in the HOLDERS, but not without considerable care getting it in and out. The problem is with the Ring fitted to the stem and the large round ball type Crown. They leave very little room to work with and the Ring must be oriented forward to make it all work. But once you do all that, anyone with chubby fingers will be really challenged to reach the Crown to wind the watch, should that need arise.

It would appear, Canadian Marconi Company anticipated that problem and solved it by ordering a special Pocket Watch with no Ring on the stem (the holes are still there) and a Crown that is flattened across the top, which barely reaches the mid-point diameter of the standard Pocket Watch Ball. This Pocket Watch goes in and out of the HOLDERS easily and can also be wound in situ if needed.

Rats! Another item back on my B-List.


David
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  #698  
Old 09-10-21, 17:21
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default 52-Set Drop Cords & Head Gear

Another production detail for the Wireless Set No. 52 appears to have revealed itself this past week.

Back in Post #199, when my Supply Unit for the 52-Set had arrived, I posted a photo of it that showed an odd red circle on the left hand Drop Cord rubber Y-Socket. The circle had a blurry red bar across it. No markings at all survived on the right hand Drop Cord, which was in rough shape. Looking at working photos of the 52-Set since then, both wartime and postwar, I have noticed there is nearly always just one Headgear Assembly Type 10 ever connected to the 52-Set and it is always on the right hand Drop Cord. The left hand Drop Cord only ever seemed to get used to connect a short Jumper Cable to a Wireless Remote Control Unit No. 1 Cdn, typically situated to the left side of the set, somewhere. So, the left hand Drop Cord seems to get very little use over time.

Later in Post #213, I added a photo from the Operator’s Manual showing the factory look of the Supply Unit, in which you can see both Drop Cords have this circular marking, though still not readable.

While trying to keep busy with something related to the 52-Set Project this last week, I decided to take a closer look at my two Head Gear Assemblies Type 10 and related bits I had accumulated. The two assemblies are in good shape, but have the usual NATO Green Goop slathered all over the metal Mic Cases. Then I remembered I had found some NOS No. 2 Brown Mic Cases and cordage and dug them out. Glad I did!

In the attached photo, you can see the backs of both Mic Cases sport a yellow Circle with R.C.A. across the middle of them. The rubber Y-Plug on the cord has a silver circle on it with R.C.A. across it. So it looks like R.C.A. was supplying the Drop Cords and Head Gear Assemblies to Canadian Marconi Company for production of the 52-Set.

Not totally surprising considering the two companies were already partners in the shared ownership of the Radiotron Tube Company, but it is another detail I will have to try and preserve while restoring this set.


David
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Headgear Canadian Type 10 A.JPG  
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  #699  
Old 10-10-21, 20:58
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Back in 2019, while still searching for a 52-Set, I was in touch with Richard Hankins in England regarding his Remote Receiver which up for sale at the time. It was very original with early style decals for the Tuning Dial that had the white centre rectangle with red and blue lettering and a nice No. 2 Brown finish on the case.

We corresponded briefly about it but I passed on purchasing it due to the alarming shipping costs, and then forgot about it.

While cleaning up some files today, I ran across the attached photo of the Remote Receiver Case. Note the hardware. It appears to be a slotted, thin head 1/4-inch hex bolt. I had no idea these were ever made!


David
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WS No.52 Remote Receiver Hardware.JPG  
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  #700  
Old 10-10-21, 22:10
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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I think the R107 used bolts like that to fix the set into the case. (Including a very long one that went from front to rear and had a tendency to shear off.)

(I can't get at my R107 to check at the moment, but I'm fairly sure they were thin headed bolts with screwdriver slots - presumably so the operator didn't need a spanner to change the valves, fuses, or vibrator.)

Chris.
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  #701  
Old 11-10-21, 03:08
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Chris.

That is fantastic news on so many levels! At the very least, it reaffirms my reputation as an Eccentric, Detail Mad Goof!

Very early on in this Project, I could not wrap my head around the data related to the hardware Canadian Marconi Company used to mount the 52-Set components into either the Carriers No. 4, or the Remote Receiver Case. All good, available photos from its time in service indicated hex head fasteners were in place. When the actual components started to arrive, sure enough, ¼-inch, 20 hex nuts and bolts were in place in all the expected locations, in different lengths.

The problem was, none of these hard facts lined up with the information in the Operators Manual, or in fact, the Tool Kit issued for the 52-Set. There is no 7/16-inch spanner or wrench provided to deal with hex bolts quickly and easily, and no complaints in this regard ever surfaced from the British during their trials of the set. Odd.

Second, in the Operators Manual, CMC points out in several locations that the set is reliable enough the Operator will never likely ever have to pull individual components for servicing, and all routine maintenance can be performed via the various removable panels and doors. The British Trials confirmed this. Where the Operator might run into conditions requiring removal of more than one component from the Carriers No. 4, CMC does warn the Operator it will be necessary to pull all three components and remove the Connector Assembly across the back of the Carriers to reinstall all components. This is a highly unusual circumstance, and yet, still no warning from CMC about any lack of proper tools for the Operator to do the job. Odd again.

Recently, I discovered that the upper hardware on my Remote Receiver was installed backwards according to a number of photos I had seen. Photos showed bolt heads to the outside, mine were reversed. When I flipped them around, I could not remove the upper receiver panel. The hex nuts and split washers stuck too far out on the inside of the case. One more thing that did not add up.

Now, two years after receiving Richards photo of his original Remote Receiver, I finally see the hardware used was a thin head, slotted hex bolt. That fits perfectly into the puzzle. In the 1930’s and 1940’s the slotted screwdriver was supreme in the average toolbox, spanners and wrenches were typically for working on things more robust than a wireless set.

A similar concept applies to the hardware used in wireless sets. Split washers seem very rare to none existent in British wireless equipment. They nearly always use a much thinner, internal toothed Shakeproof washer to lock things down. They take up less space.

The final interesting thing I have noticed with the larger hex hardware used on wartime wireless equipment is that the hex nuts are a lot thinner than their modern equivalents today.

My thought on all this latter stuff is that post war, spanners, wrenches and drive sets of various sizes became very popular tools everywhere, very rapidly, for two big reasons: speed of use and the massive increase in torque one can apply to the hardware. That probably spelled the end to the wartime, thinner hex nuts and bolts. It would become extremely easy to over torque this older hardware, rounding off the corners on the nuts and bolts and probably even shearing off a lot of bolt heads.

Consequently, here in Canada at least, whenever the 52-Sets went in for servicing, or maintenance of any kind, it probably became standard practise to simply remove and toss the factory original hardware and replace it with the more robust, modern stuff designed for use with modern, high torque tools.

Nice that Richards Remote Receiver survived in England all these years with little change.

Not so nice I now have to find a bolt shop somewhere that still stocks old style, thin head slotted hex bolts and old style thin hex nuts.



David
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  #702  
Old 11-10-21, 03:52
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
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Not directly suitable but indicates that at least someone wants slots and hex heads on the same fastener...
https://www.mcmaster.com/screws/hex-...slotted-drive/
Were fasteners on the 52 set like those on the 19, often BA threads?
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  #703  
Old 11-10-21, 15:56
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Hello Grant.

Yes, a quick glance at the Web yesterday suggested there were a number of companies making modern slot head hex bolts. I fear the trick will be finding a company still making the vintage thin head versions.

The hardware mix on the 52-Set is consistent with that found on the 19-Set and very likely all other wireless sets of British origins, used by the Canadian Military. The BA Thread generally tends to be found, however, in just a few particular components. The Pocket Watch Holder mounting hardware is a classic, along with bits of the Tuning/Flick Drive Assemblies.

What I have noticed is the BA Threads are common enough they are listed in the Standard Hardware Lists compiled by the Ordnance Supply System. Interestingly, these slot head hex bolts do not show up on the Standard Hardware List at all for the 52-Set, so they must have been placed elsewhere in the system.

One thing I did find this morning is the ¼-inch ID split lock washers typically found on the ¼-inch mounting hardware today on the 52-Set Components, do not exist on the original Standard Hardware List. The much thinner, Shakeproof, ¼-inch ID internal toothed lock washer is the only one listed. That would be consistent with the idea the original hardware was beefed up with modern replacements post war, for convenience in servicing.


David
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