MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 27-04-21, 15:52
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7456.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	248.8 KB
ID:	121674Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7457.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	229.1 KB
ID:	121675Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7458.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	279.9 KB
ID:	121676
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 27-04-21, 17:22
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 12,959
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
As you can see, the number appears to start with 21 but the last two digits are very hard to make out. Theyíre both ďroundĒ numbers, though: something like 60, 66, 69, 80, 86, 89, or maybe even 30, 36 or 39. I hope our collective recognition ability and/or tinkering with images can give us a definite answer
Great work, Jakko! I canít enhance the photos on the device I am currently using, but here is a list of M4A4 serial numbers which may help to narrow doen the options:
Quote:
Part II, SNL G-104, Vol. IX, the Preliminary Service Parts Catalogue for Tank, Medium M4A4 built by Chrysler Co. under contract number W-ORD-461 lists the following serial numbers:
  • 4805 through 6204 (1,400 ea.)
  • 16555 through 20554 (4,000 ea.)
  • 20555 through 23904 (3,350 ea.)
Note: this contract totals 8,750 M4A4s. As only 7,499 M4A4s were actually delivered, s/n 22653 must have been the last one built.
From my website: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/serial.htm
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 27-04-21, 19:19
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Thanks. I haven’t tried enhancing the photos yet, but I couldn’t make out parts of the numbers on the tank and didn’t find a fifth digit at all. I have a feeling the tank was sandblasted in 1994 and part of the numbers wore away then — the surface they’re on is pretty uneven.

It looks to me like the number is 2130 (and one more number, of course), but I’d be happy to be proved wrong

Last edited by Jakko Westerbeke; 27-04-21 at 19:37.
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 06-05-21, 01:36
James P James P is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
Thanks. I haven’t tried enhancing the photos yet, but I couldn’t make out parts of the numbers on the tank and didn’t find a fifth digit at all. I have a feeling the tank was sandblasted in 1994 and part of the numbers wore away then — the surface they’re on is pretty uneven.

It looks to me like the number is 2130 (and one more number, of course), but I’d be happy to be proved wrong
Bead blast the area fine a fine grit 100-120 and just enough pressure to knock off all the clutter of paint and primer that working the area with a wire wheel just makes a confusing mess. If you cannot get in there with a small hand held media gun, chemically remove the paint scale, once the surface is bright (paint free) run a black wax crayon over the stamping to back fill then, or do a paper rubbing. I have had some great results going the black crayon route, but you need to prep and clean the areas better to make things pop. Oblique lighting with the brightest light possible yields great results, but if the stamping are not there (light struck) then they are just plain not there.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 06-05-21, 10:53
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
If you cannot get in there with a small hand held media gun
I donít even know what a media gun is, aside from assuming from context that itís a tool to do with sandblasting

Thanks for the tips, though I may not be able to go back before the tank gets sandblasted in order to try some out

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
if the stamping are not there (light struck) then they are just plain not there.
Technically it should be possible to bring them out with the right equipment, due to the invisible deformation the stamping will have caused in the underlying metal, but that requires all kinds of forensics-type kit, like that used to retrieve filed-off serial numbers from guns. Somehow, I think I wonít have access to that either Ö

Also, someone pointed out to me that the second digit is probably a 0, not a 1. Itís odd, but when I was looking at the real thing it looked definitely like a straight number 1 to me, but in the photos I see the round shape of a 0 instead Ö So itís probably 2030X.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 06-05-21, 17:00
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 2,889
Default

Been looking at your photos for a while now, Jakko, and my guess would be either, Ď22126í, or, Ď21126í.

An interesting mystery.

David
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 06-05-21, 22:23
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hoofddorp, The Netherlands
Posts: 2,456
Default

What about the old trick of putting a thin piece of paper over de number and rubbing a pencil against it?

I tried to spice up one of the pictures, but I can't get a clear view.....2106 (too much space between 1 and 0 I guess), 2030, 2036???
Attached Thumbnails
Nunbah.jpg  
__________________
Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW
BSA Folding Bicycle
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 07-05-21, 10:52
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
What about the old trick of putting a thin piece of paper over de number and rubbing a pencil against it?
You can tell I’m not used to doing this kind of thing, because the thought didn’t occur to me at all when trying to make the number visible on the actual tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
I tried to spice up one of the pictures, but I can't get a clear view.....2106 (too much space between 1 and 0 I guess), 2030, 2036???
I’ve also tinkered with the colours, contrast, levels etc. a bit and didn’t really have much success yet. I may need to try again … I think the fourth digit is a 0, though: there seems to be nothing in the middle of the number that would indicate a 6 or a 9, and the left side isn’t pinched in like you would expect for an 8.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 03-08-21, 13:05
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 12,959
Default

Scan from a German language magazine showing two of the Sherman Crabs lined up in the Zuidstraat, Westkapelle, ca.1945-1946.

Closest to the camera is Sherman V Crab, "DANDY DINMONT" Turret no. 15 of 1LBY, "A" Sqn., No.1 Troop. Behind it is Sherman V Crab T-148656 which survived to this day.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Bramble002.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	216.8 KB
ID:	123952
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 03-08-21, 13:41
MicS MicS is offline
(Michel Sabarly)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: France
Posts: 92
Default

Ahem, Hanno, Jakko alreary posted this photo in this very thread and so did you
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 03-08-21, 15:28
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Heh, I got a notification of a new reply to this thread, read it, and thought: ďIs this something that got held up for quite some time, or a new photo we havenít seen yet?Ē
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 03-08-21, 21:24
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 12,959
Default

Sorry chaps, forgot about that!

As for something new, here are some pics lifted off the FB page of Bevrijdingsmuseum Zeeland showing progress is being made on the restoration of the Sherman V:

Click image for larger version

Name:	180456065_3878257542210006_7282347059330099604_n.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	98.5 KB
ID:	123955 Click image for larger version

Name:	225961615_4137567382945686_4724152889658363330_n.jpg
Views:	6
Size:	103.1 KB
ID:	123956
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 04-08-21, 10:50
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Maybe I should go back for another visit before they put it all back together again

By the way: note the front mudguards. I gave them a drawing of what they’re supposed to be like, explained the shape some more on one of my visits to the workshop, and they even made them with the strengthening rib that I didn’t actually expect to see.
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 30-08-21, 20:01
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Some new photos of two of the tanks at Westkapelle just surfaced:

Name:  FO186802.jpg
Views: 83
Size:  49.5 KB
source

Name:  FO186803.jpg
Views: 86
Size:  36.3 KB
source

(With thanks to Hans Houterman, who mailed me to ask if these were indeed taken there.)
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 30-08-21, 21:25
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 12,959
Default

Wow, great to see some new pictures!

Have you gone back to the museum to look at the restoration progress, Jakko?
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 31-08-21, 10:37
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Wow, great to see some new pictures!
From another source, Iíve also recently seen a ďnewĒ picture of Wolf of Badenoch, and thereís a chance there may be more ó though at best, Iíll only find that out next week. With a bit of luck, though, Iíll get permission to use it in the upcoming book the Polderhuis will publish soon Ö

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Have you gone back to the museum to look at the restoration progress, Jakko?
Unfortunately I havenít had the chance to yet
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 11-09-21, 19:58
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Okay, I went back today, partly because two days ago I got a phone call from Kees Traas about there being some confusion over the locations of the markings I had told them to put on. In the end it turned out they fit after all, but I still think it helped a lot to be able to explain in person how and where they should go.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7902.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	168.8 KB
ID:	124606

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7911.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	239.8 KB
ID:	124608

Note the replacement mudguards, which look quite good up close. The bow machine gun is a fake, made on a CNC machine, welded securely into the ball mount, whose shield has also been put back on (it rusted off a few years back). I didn’t really want to tell the guy who was obviously proud of his work that it shouldn’t be on this tank at all

Most of the wheels are the ones the tank had before, but some are replacements, including the front wheels on both sides, which are now the spoked, welded type. They both have blanking plates installed between the spokes, but are not the later “big hub” types that had plates like these from the factory. On the re-used wheels, the holes in the tyres were patched up with black rubber-like putty. I was somewhat amazed that the wheels actually rotate when I pushed them with my foot.

Here’s an interesting thing for the Shermanophiles:

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7903.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	207.8 KB
ID:	124607

The sprocket rings have been replaced, with an FMC one on the inside on the left-hand side. The other three are simple, plain types much more commonly seen.

The turret was indoors, and will be fitted soon, though it depends a bit on whether they can lift it high enough with a forklift, or if they need to get a crane in.

As for the tracks, they will be replaced by a second-hand set of T48 rubber-chevron type, that has just been sandblasted to get the rust off (Kees showed me a picture), so they await spraying black for protection. One thing is that the rubber on the outside is very (very!) worn, but the inner faces are still good.

It’s currently the intention to have the tank back at Westkapelle in mid-October or so, depending on how well the rest of the work goes and availability of the Army for transportation.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 11-09-21, 20:07
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

While I was there, I also visited the Bevrijdingsmuseum itself, as I had only been there once a few years ago, and that was when the current buildings were still under construction. First of all, I would say itís definitely worth a visit if you happen to be in the area and have an interest in military history and/or WWII equipment.

Second, Kees took me up to the offices and storeroom, as he had some photographs he thought might interest me. After a fair while looking for them in vain, it turned out they had already been sent to the NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust and Genocide Studies for digitisation and to be entered into their collection (the originals will come back to the Bevrijdingsmuseum), so I didnít get to see them yet. However, I did come across the following couple of pictures that I thought might be of interest here (quality is not great, as I took photos of them with my iPad and then had to push and pull them to straighten them out a bit).

Two wrecks of Weasels at (almost certainly) Westkapelle:

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7969.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	54.8 KB
ID:	124609

Two Terrapins somewhere on Walcheren:

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7970.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	227.4 KB
ID:	124610

LVTs on the Markt square in Middelburg, two of them carrying Weasels in the cargo bay:

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7971.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	80.1 KB
ID:	124611
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 12-09-21, 16:57
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 12,959
Default

Thanks for the update Jakko! I am excited to learn about the marking scheme you have designed for this tank.


On a related note: another Infatuate relic was unearthed last week when a German bunker was rediscovered after digging for a new building had started. An LVT sprocket was one of the artefacts dug up, surprisingly. The other artefacts were all related to the bunker itself.

Click image for larger version

Name:	241666484_573638027014580_5453753327806486314_n.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	140.0 KB
ID:	124647 Click image for larger version

Name:	241637473_573639287014454_7077154286132049263_n.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	102.8 KB
ID:	124648
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1032...21590037916682
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 12-09-21, 19:43
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
I am excited to learn about the marking scheme you have designed for this tank.
Some months ago, I made the following instructions for them to use, as well as 1:1 size drawings of the markings:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Markeringen T148656 1.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	80.6 KB
ID:	124658Click image for larger version

Name:	Markeringen T148656 2.png
Views:	2
Size:	61.9 KB
ID:	124660

Those 1:1 drawings went to a company that makes adhesive stencils, some of which I also saw yesterday and which seem to look good (as far as I could tell, with them still on the backing paper )

As for accuracy, there is, of course, a bit of a problem. The markings on the glacis are not those of T148656, as it had both the AoS and division markings on the front of the right flail jib, which is missing. However, they are correct most of the other 1 Lothians tanks, so I felt it would be best to copy those. The positions on the rear are as they appear in the few available photographs of the back of the tank.

The census number on the side is in the position it was in before T148656 was converted to a Crab. I chose this because else the one on the left would have been at the front while that on the right would be nearly at the back, and that will have some people wondering without being able to get an explanation. Using the pre-Crab position seemed better.

I debated over including the hand-painted CHERRY 6 on front and/or rear, as well as the 148-over-656 on the bow, and decided against them. The main reason is that this is a tank on public display, and text that appears hand-painted will look too much like graffiti ó which invites more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
An LVT sprocket was one of the artefacts dug up, surprisingly.
I had read about the sprocket, yes. I know of at least two LVT wrecks in Vlissingen (of the twenty deployed there in all), but not near this bunker, so perhaps one was lost here too?
Reply With Quote
  #201  
Old 24-09-21, 17:22
MicS MicS is offline
(Michel Sabarly)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: France
Posts: 92
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
While I was there, I also visited the Bevrijdingsmuseum itself, as I had only been there once a few years ago, and that was when the current buildings were still under construction. First of all, I would say itís definitely worth a visit if you happen to be in the area and have an interest in military history and/or WWII equipment.

Second, Kees took me up to the offices and storeroom, as he had some photographs he thought might interest me. After a fair while looking for them in vain, it turned out they had already been sent to the NIOD Institute for War, Holocaust and Genocide Studies for digitisation and to be entered into their collection (the originals will come back to the Bevrijdingsmuseum), so I didnít get to see them yet. However, I did come across the following couple of pictures that I thought might be of interest here (quality is not great, as I took photos of them with my iPad and then had to push and pull them to straighten them out a bit).

Two wrecks of Weasels at (almost certainly) Westkapelle:

Attachment 124609

Two Terrapins somewhere on Walcheren:

Attachment 124610

LVTs on the Markt square in Middelburg, two of them carrying Weasels in the cargo bay:

Attachment 124611

Nice finds Jakko.


First photo probably shows the same two Weasels as on this shot:

Click image for larger version

Name:	NL-HaNA_2.24.01.03_0_900-7400 - Overturned Weasels.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	765.6 KB
ID:	124895
Source


Last photo is the same as BBZ 66478, but less cropped on the left side (and more on the right):
Click image for larger version

Name:	LVT4 1B 'STOAT', 1C 'SABLE' USA{89xx36} - Middelburg 6 Nov 44 - FO066478.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	92.5 KB
ID:	124896
Source
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 24-09-21, 19:33
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS View Post
First photo probably shows the same two Weasels as on this shot:
It does look like that, yes. Now to try and find the exact spot they were in Ö

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS View Post
Last photo is the same as BBZ 66478, but less cropped on the left side (and more on the right):
This one was actually a postcard. Or maybe I should say, a photo printed on paper that has postcard markings (lines for the address etc.) printed on the back.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted: To trade (N Z only) a pair of LP2 fuel tanks for riveted carrier tanks. Lynn Eades For Sale Or Wanted 3 01-10-16 00:56
A definitive book on sherman Tanks? Gordon Kibble The Armour Forum 6 14-08-16 10:58
Sherman C Tanks - CES Tim Bell The Armour Forum 7 09-08-16 10:12
Westkapelle Museum Opening, Walcheren, 1November2004 Colin Williams Military Shows & Events 0 13-10-04 05:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016