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  #1  
Old 14-09-21, 22:45
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Default Multiple SMOKE grenade projector: Sherman, Wasp carrier?

The subject is a 8 "barrel" Smoke projector that can be seen in some 1945 pictures of Canadian Shermans, and also Wasp carriers.
I don't even know what the proper name is for this piece of kit....but after speaking with Tim and Hanno, we thought at least it deserves a thread of it's own to gather info and learn more about it.

According to a quote from a war diary posted by Steve Guthrie on another forum, the projector was developed by the RCEME.

Attached are some period pictures of Wasps showing the projector, as well as a Sherman Firefly Ic with the projector fitted to the mantlet.

1st picture; Wasps in Beilen 1945, source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl
2nd and 3rd picture; Wasps in Zutphen 1945, source: https://erfgoedcentrumzutphen.nl
4th picture: Wasp in Zwolle 1945; source: https://historischcentrumoverijssel.nl/
5th picture; Sherman Ic; source: https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...hermantank.htm

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Old 14-09-21, 22:49
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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The Dutch Army museum has a Wasp carrier in their collection. After spending years in depots away from view, it's currently on display for the general public in the NMM, the National Army myseum in Soesterberg. It seems it was repainted recently, but more important.....it is still fitted with the smoke projector.

pictures taken last saterday.

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  #3  
Old 14-09-21, 23:01
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Attached is a picture of a row is Staghounds, waiting for the parade in Amsterdam, may 1945. A smoke projector can be seen in the distance; were they also fitted to some Staghounds (Marco??)....or could it be a different vehicle?

source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl

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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 16-09-21 at 00:51. Reason: different.....not difficult!
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Old 15-09-21, 05:03
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Alex,

While the Multi-barrelled Smoke Discharger is not mentioned in the 2 March 1945, Handbook for the Flame Thrower Transportable, No. 2, Mark 2c, images of the mount can be found in the 11 May 1945 Addendum No. 1 to the above handbook (which is the fitting instructions for the supplementary armour).

The Multi-Barrelled Smoke Discharger is described in detail in the 1950 Canadian Army Flame Training Manual, for the Flame Thrower, Transportable, No. 2, Mark 2c (Wasp 2).

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  #5  
Old 15-09-21, 05:07
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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The description:

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  #6  
Old 15-09-21, 05:12
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Wiring diagram:

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  #7  
Old 15-09-21, 12:29
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Alex,

While the Multi-barrelled Smoke Discharger is not mentioned in the 2 March 1945, Handbook for the Flame Thrower Transportable, No. 2, Mark 2c, images of the mount can be found in the 11 May 1945 Addendum No. 1 to the above handbook (which is the fitting instructions for the supplementary armour).
Thanks Colin; that's very interesting. Nigel Watson gave me some copies from the Wasp handbook years ago, but I am guessing those are the earlier issues as indeed these do not include anything about the smoke discharger.
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Old 15-09-21, 17:19
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Jordan Baker Jordan Baker is offline
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Fantastic post with pictures from Alex and research with the manual from Colin.

Alex, by chance were you able to get pictures of the backside of the launcher base? It appears to have wires. Also any chance that this carrier still has its firing switches inside?

Link for the No80 Smoke Grenade WP
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30020161
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Old 15-09-21, 18:12
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Alex, by chance were you able to get pictures of the backside of the launcher base? It appears to have wires. Also any chance that this carrier still has its firing switches inside?
Tim asked the same thing.....but sadly I don't have pictures from the rear of the unit or the wiring. The Wasp is behind a barrier, and when I visited the museum, the volunteer on duty didn't allow me to step over the barrier for a few pictures. I might have another go in the future though. I wouldn't be surprised if the wiring is still there as the Wasp spent most of it's life in storage. Attached is a picture of what it looked like before the recent fresh-up.
Maybe Nigel Watson has pictures of the inside....as he visited the Wasp for his book series when it was still in storage in Grave.
Attached Thumbnails
Wasp Delft.jpg  
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Old 15-09-21, 23:14
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Wow, great info - thanks everyone.

This started for me about a month ago with the photo of the Governor General Foot Guards Sherman Firefly in Germany 45 and the obvious "what's that on the Mantlet" question.

Digging on the Canadian Military Model Maker's forum on Facebook led to the info from Steve Guthrie and I have since found relevant pages in the 4th Canadian Armoured Brigade war diary for the demo to units.

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In addition to the war diary data, I have found some other photos of GGFG Sherman with this mounted on the Mantlet which I will find and post.

Also, I am advised that the Ferret Armoured Car had a 66mm Launcher which used the F013 electric fuse (very similar to the No 14 electric fuse) which also launched the no80 smoke grenade.

Tim
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  #11  
Old 15-09-21, 23:26
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Sherman of GGFG in Germany 45 (sorry cannot recall where I found it) You can see the rear of the smoke units on the turrets of the first two tanks.

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Tim
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  #12  
Old 16-09-21, 00:45
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bell View Post
Sherman of GGFG in Germany 45 (sorry cannot recall where I found it) You can see the rear of the smoke units on the turrets of the first two tanks.
Tim, It's funny that I did see the picture before, but I was too focussed on the cupola that I completely missed the Smoke discharger!
It's also featured here on the forum in the thread on the cupola:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26791

it's a picture from the Canadian Public Archives, pa159252
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/Collec...98654514850861

Steve also published it in the book "Camouflage & Markings of Canadian Armored Vehicles in World War Two: Part 2", along with the picture of the Firefly Hybrid posted earlier, which is credited as "DND Army S-49827"

Also attached is a picture from the Amsterdam city archives of a Sherman V with Smoke discharger on the way to the liberation parade.
source:https://archief.amsterdam/beeldbank/

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Old 16-09-21, 03:09
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Pictures from Nigel Watson Universal Carrier Vol2 book. The carrier is the Wasp mk2 that Alex photographed.

This is the push button switch for the launcher.

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  #14  
Old 16-09-21, 04:54
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Gents,

CMHQ file 55/4070/1/2 Army Smoke Weapons contains many documents regarding these Canadian Dischargers.

The file starts at: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...6/4755?r=0&s=1

I haven’t found the end of the file yet, but there is lots of reading for interested parties.

Attached are a couple of images to wet your appetite.
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Old 16-09-21, 05:48
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Thanks Colin for finding the CMHQ files

Here is the materials list required for making one.
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1EA0EC51-9D6C-4440-9EC1-5FF5640EEFC3.jpeg   A6B9491F-DF0B-4960-9D5D-6673B25DE30B.jpeg   CED1BDAA-6AE3-4ED3-AFEA-224467725025.jpeg   18C7C8B9-5776-40A2-8842-2F3DF89CFE96.jpeg  
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Old 16-09-21, 05:49
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A few drawings
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Old 16-09-21, 06:01
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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An update:

Documents can be found in both CMHQ files 55/4070/1 and 55/4070/1/2 both files are titled “Army Smoke Weapons”.

The start of 55/4070/1 is at https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...6/4487?r=0&s=3

The documents extend from image 4487 to image 4522.

55/4070/1/2 extends from image 4755 to 4955.

While not all of the documents relate to these Multi Barrelled Smoke Dischargers, a very large portion of them do, so there is likely a couple of hundred pages to read.

Don’t stay up too late!

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Old 16-09-21, 11:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Alford View Post
An update:

Documents can be found in both CMHQ files 55/4070/1 and 55/4070/1/2 both files are titled “Army Smoke Weapons”.

The start of 55/4070/1 is at https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...6/4487?r=0&s=3

The documents extend from image 4487 to image 4522.

55/4070/1/2 extends from image 4755 to 4955.

While not all of the documents relate to these Multi Barrelled Smoke Dischargers, a very large portion of them do, so there is likely a couple of hundred pages to read.

Don’t stay up too late!

Colin
Colin

Excellent - thanks!

I suspect it will be a late night tonight.

The online archives are great - if you know where to find stuff (which you clearly do!).

Cheers

Tim
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Old 16-09-21, 11:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Baker View Post
Pictures from Nigel Watson Universal Carrier Vol2 book. The carrier is the Wasp mk2 that Alex photographed.

This is the push button switch for the launcher.
Same push buttons as the unit for the rear smoke generator (No8) for the Sherman (On that the buttons are in a box with the convoy light switch above the driver's dash board).

Cheers

Tim
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Old 16-09-21, 12:08
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Interesting to see the trials extended to Daimler Armoured Cars...

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These images are from the Daimler Fighting Vehicle Website http://daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/ , courtesy of Singe Ager...

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Old 16-09-21, 12:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
Tim, It's funny that I did see the picture before, but I was too focussed on the cupola that I completely missed the Smoke discharger!
Yep - nice photo of the ARV cupola - I have one of these for the Firefly already.

Cheers

Tim
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Old 16-09-21, 12:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
According to a quote from a war diary posted by Steve Guthrie on another forum, the projector was developed by the RCEME.
For the sake of completeness of this very interesing and thorough topic, here's the war diary entry Steve Guthrie dug up:

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  #23  
Old 17-09-21, 16:36
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Colin, Jordan, thanks for the terrific additions!

Here is another Wasp during a liberation parade in Utrecht 1945.
source:https://hetutrechtsarchief.nl/
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