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  #1  
Old 05-08-08, 08:44
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Default Aussie Sentinel tanks

Hi all,
As a follow on to Phoenix's thread on Aussie Vickers tanks http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=11489 which has been great I'd like to start one on Australia's Sentinel tanks produced in 1942-3.
Much is already written on the development and production of them but what do we know of their survival post war.
How many and where do they still exist?
Go into as much detail as you please. The more the merrier.

I'll start off by what I (think I) know off the top of my head.

Bovington has an AC1
AWM has/had an AC3 (?)
Pucka tank museum has an AC1
John Belfield had an AC1, a hybrid (?) AC3 and an AC1 hull. These of course were sold in 2006. The buyers and where-abouts since I do not know of.

I would really like to know more. Much more.
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Old 05-08-08, 12:14
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Default Sentinel



Some stuff on this MLU thread.
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  #3  
Old 05-08-08, 12:35
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Good luck with your quest, Ryan. I have a bit of 2nd hand info for you.

I was up at Walhalla Vic. on the weekend of 28th and 29th June 2008,
was talking to the owner of a veteran car who recounted this story.

His father, in 1946/47 (?) went to Bandiana for an auction. He placed a sealed bid for Ninety pounds for 1 Sentinel tank. His bid was rejected, but he was advised that if he increased his bid to 100 pounds, then he would be successful. This he did and he chose his tank. From Melbourne they took a Diamond T tray truck loaded with fuel to Bandiana and then drove the tank back to Melbourne. There were many problems both before starting home and along the way. One of the 3 Cadillac engines was US but they fitted another. The turrent was removed at the family farm at ?? Upper Beaconsfield?? and the tank used around the property.

Eventually the tank was donated to the Pucka Armoured Museum.

Not long after picking up this tank, the chap was contacted by Army Disposals who wanted to know when he was picking up the other tanks that he had purchased. Seems his 100pounds was for the line of tanks. 3 or 4 Sentinels. He went into panic and off loaded them to someone else as he only wanted one.

I will look up the name of the chap I was talking to, it is out at our new house and you can contact him for the full story. This is just a precis of his story.
regards Rick
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Old 05-08-08, 12:56
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Ryan, have sent you a PM with all the contact details. Rick
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Old 05-08-08, 19:47
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What a great story, Rick

Sort of thing I'd love to record!
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  #6  
Old 06-08-08, 01:11
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PM on the way to you too. Rick
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  #7  
Old 06-08-08, 01:42
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Thank you Rick,
I'll be following that lead. All I can say is wow, 3-4 Sentinels for 100 pounds. There has to be Sentinels or their remains out there still to see the light.
Of 66 made we only know of 6 remaining? Surely not.
AC Sentinels are pretty under-rated I believe.
Thanks too Keith,
Your work previously has been great.
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  #8  
Old 10-08-08, 02:28
Ian Fawbert Ian Fawbert is offline
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Hi Ryan,

I dont see him very often, but when ever i see him next time, i`ll see what i can find out if he'll agree to it!

Cheers,
Ian.
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  #9  
Old 10-08-08, 05:21
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Default movie

Bit of useless trivia . Years ago, I was looking at a wartime era movie , made here in Aust. It was depicting a desert battle, maybe Tobruk or something. Anyway, the tanks in some scenes were the Sentinals .. no doubt in my mind . I think Chips Rafferty was in the film .

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Old 10-08-08, 06:02
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Default Serial numbers?

Where do I look for the serial numbers guys.
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  #11  
Old 10-08-08, 09:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kelly View Post
Bit of useless trivia . Years ago, I was looking at a wartime era movie , made here in Aust. It was depicting a desert battle, maybe Tobruk or something. Anyway, the tanks in some scenes were the Sentinals .. no doubt in my mind . I think Chips Rafferty was in the film .

Mike
That's got to be "The Rats of Tobruk" (1944)

It's a long time since I saw that movie, sure they weren't just Grants?
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Old 10-08-08, 09:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynoki View Post

I'll start off by what I (think I) know off the top of my head.

Bovington has an AC1
AWM has/had an AC3 (?)
Pucka tank museum has an AC1
John Belfield had an AC1, a hybrid (?) AC3 and an AC1 hull. These of course were sold in 2006. The buyers and where-abouts since I do not know of.

I would really like to know more. Much more.
I spoke to John Belfield yesterday, Jacques Littlefield bought 1, 1 went to a collector in QLD & John retains the AC1 Hull, Who got the other models, I can't remember.
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  #13  
Old 21-10-08, 08:28
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Default Photo on ebay

Interesting picture showing a partially completed Sentinel with a large group of LP2A carriers. You'll have to scroll down a bit through a bunch of oversized text to get to it.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NSW-RAILWAYS-...3286.m20.l1116

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Old 26-10-08, 17:24
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Default Australian AC IV?

Question for our Aussie compatriots: While perusing pictures for sale on ebay I came across a picture of what appears to be an Australian Sentinel tank mounting the 17pdr. A quick trip to Wikipedia tells me that only a few had that gun mounted, so this might be a rare picture of the tank. Derek.
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File Type: jpg sentinel tank.jpg (43.0 KB, 94 views)
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  #15  
Old 28-10-08, 05:22
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That's a pretty common pic found across many websites.
It may be originally a AWM photo so I don't know how authentic the ad may be. A copy perhaps.
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Old 07-02-11, 09:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kelly View Post
Bit of useless trivia . Years ago, I was looking at a wartime era movie , made here in Aust. It was depicting a desert battle, maybe Tobruk or something. Anyway, the tanks in some scenes were the Sentinals .. no doubt in my mind . I think Chips Rafferty was in the film .

Mike
Yes they were Sentinals, the Sentinals were a technical advancement for their time as they were the first production tank to use both cast hull and turret together.

Here are some recent photos of the AC1 at Puckapunyal.






Regards Easo
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  #17  
Old 07-02-11, 10:42
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Default Sentinel

Thanks for the pics Easo.
It's a shame the project was abandoned in 1943 when it was just really gearing up for AC3 and AC4 production. Even new tank shops were being readied at Ford Geelong. The 80+ AC3 hulls that had been cast I guess were then just scrapped.
In a different world Australia may have soldiered on into the 1950s with AC4's with 17pdrs instead of M3 Grants with 75mms.
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  #18  
Old 07-02-11, 12:15
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It is certainly a shame as it would have been a awsome tank in combat with the 17pdr.

This is the only shot I have of the Bovington tank I took a heap on my visit in 2008. But this is all I can find,



This week I'll get more detailed images.

Easo
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  #19  
Old 23-11-11, 18:53
Roger Lucy Roger Lucy is offline
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Default Cast Armour tanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by easo View Post
the Sentinals were a technical advancement for their time as they were the first production tank to use both cast hull and turret together.
I think the Ram may have beaten-out the Sentinel as the first production tank with a cast turret and hull. The first Ram prototype was completed on 30 June 1941 and they were in full production by the end of the year. Actually the pre-war French Hotchkiss and Souma tanks had cast hulls and turrets, but their hulls were not cast in one piece.

Did the later Sentinels (AC3 and AC4) with the 25 pounder and 17-pounder guns use the same 54-inch turret ring as the AC1. A 60-inch ring was considered necessary for the Ram's 6-pounder and a three-man crew (although 40 were up-gunned to 75mm).
Roger
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Old 23-11-11, 19:42
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I think what Easo meant to say was that the Sentinel was the first tank to utilise a single casting for the entire hull.

The 'AC4' was, of course, a 'drawing board' tank: it was not actually built. The images that purport to show the AC4 are actually an E series (I think E-3?) test bed hull with a turret casting mounting a 17pdr: it was a concept mock-up only. Note, in the image, the 'stub' of the hull MG mount in the centre front of the hull: a feature of the AC1 deleted in the AC3, and would have been deleted in the AC4 as well, if it had reached prototype stage.

Not sure what the projected turret ring diameter was: will have to check.

Mike C
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  #21  
Old 20-11-11, 11:53
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Default Did James Swan have a sentinal

G'day all
I was speaking to a young local bloke at the James swan clearing sale and he told me about the time he and james removed the turret off a sherman tank.
At the time I just thought he ment Lee/Grant or Stuart until he started to talk to me about the 3 v8 engines in it.
I didnt get the young blokes name and had to get back to the auction.

Does anyone else know anything about it or was he feeding me bulls*@t

Luke
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Old 20-11-11, 20:20
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Many years ago James did have 1 or 2 Sentinals, they may have been bought from the Melb Tank Museum when John had his sale.
Where they went I am unsure.
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  #23  
Old 20-11-11, 23:37
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Default sentinels

The 3 Sentinels at the 2006 auction as far as I have been able to find went as follows:
E1 hull stayed with John
AC1 went to the United States
AC3 went (?) to collector in QLD.
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Old 20-11-11, 23:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
The 3 Sentinels at the 2006 auction as far as I have been able to find went as follows:
E1 hull stayed with John
AC1 went to the United States
AC3 went (?) to collector in QLD.
Ryan,

I think AC1 went to the Jacques Littlefield collection in California.
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Old 21-11-11, 07:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
Ryan,

I think AC1 went to the Jacques Littlefield collection in California.
Thanks Rich, I thought so.

Luke, you and me will just have to uncover some more with some thorough digging.
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  #26  
Old 11-04-12, 19:24
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Quote from Mike Cecil

Quote:
Ahh, it was good to see an article on the Australian Cruiser tank by David Fletcher in the recent (no 131) issue of CMV. Readability was excellent in David's usual style, and he always seems to be able to encapsulate the history of a vehicle so well in just a few pages.

Of course, the majority of information about the AC series is resident in Australian archives, rather than the UK, so it is perhaps not surprising that there are a few statements that are a little astray of the mark.

The heading asks 'where did the name Sentinel come from?' and David spends a long paragraph debating this point, concluding ('in the absence of any firm evidence') that it was adopted AFTER the war as a collective name for the type. Well, there is solid, documentary evidence that the name was officially adopted in early 1942 for just the AC1 tank. David later comments that the AC3 tank at the AWM, 'now rejoicing in the name Thunderbolt', which seems to imply that this is also a later naming. Again, the AC3 powered by the Perrier-Cadillac triple V8 was officially named Thunderbolt in 1942, and there are documents that prove this, also.

David makes no mention of the AC3 that was to be built in Victoria powered by a Wasp radial, the configuration giving rise to the 'other' AC3 name, the AC3 Scorpion (also an officially promulgated name). Alas, no AC3 Scorpions were built prior to the shut-down of the project in mid-1943.

David also comments that the AC1 at Bovington arriving in 1949, and that it was sent to the UK for 'evaluation'. Documents show that the tank was gifted directly to the tank museum at Bovington via the Australian Army Staff in London as a 'technical example' for display at Bovington, and not for testing or evaluation. The offer was made and accepted before the war's end. The tank, complete with all accessories and documentation, left Australia aboard the SS Nestor in mid-1946, arriving in the UK after a voyage lasting about 8 weeks.

Although there were only 65 AC1, 1 AC3 and 3 'E' series Australian Cruiser tanks built during WW2, and none saw any operational service, the whole process, from concept to design to production, is fascinating. I know there has been a highly detailed manuscript completed about the history of the Aust Cruiser, but alas it seems to be stuck in publisher's limbo for some reason I am yet to fully understand. Such a pity, as the books author turned up some really interesting 'stuff' on the whole program (I was honoured to read and comment on the drafts, and write the Foreword). Hopefully, it will see the light of day sometime soon.

Mike C
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  #27  
Old 23-03-13, 11:33
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Default Australian Cruiser.1.

A very interesting account about the invention and development of the Sentinel AC 1 tank. It took only 22 months from planning to driving.

Enjoy.
Rick.



http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/rec...-vol5-ch14.pdf
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  #28  
Old 25-03-13, 21:49
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Yes, Rick, the Official History account is interesting, but does not provide a complete picture by any means.

For example, the statement that the Cadillac was the 'only engine available with enough Horsepower' does not take into account the preference by Watson for the Guiberson Radial diesel engine above all others. Unfortunately, the high fees and royalties required by Guiberson were unacceptable to the Australian government, so the engine was dropped from contention. The Caddie engine in triplicate, running through a common crank-case, was the next-best available alternative.

DP Mellor's history of the AC tanks is a great starting point and a 'good read'. It's a pity that the unpublished manuscript I referred to remains just that: unpublished, as it provides a far more in-depth analysis of the whole saga.

Mike C
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  #29  
Old 26-03-13, 01:36
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Default new find

I was recently at a farm and saw an AC hull cut off above the tracks. Hull no. BK23.

Sorry, BK AH23
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  #30  
Old 05-04-14, 12:33
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Default tobruk movie

Seems the 1944 movie 'The rats of tobruk' which features Sentinels in action mocked up as Panzers has been remastered and released on DVD.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191124492...49#ht_7wt_1137

hmm
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