Rear axle seals...outer.....or whatisit?

Bob Carriere · #1 18-08-05, 03:27

I have been very lucky so far finding bearing and seals either from Forum referrals or Forum members. A store in Ottawa called Bearing Solutions on Industrial as also been of great help but now I am stumped......

The rear axle has a special seal....made like a large flat washer... has a tab that fits in the key way that keeps it from rotating... is held in place between the two large bearing nuts...... and usually have no parts number.???? except for one I found that reads....VICTOR...... 49850...... which of course DOESN't cross reference to anything...... on the outside of that large seal is a fabric coated in rubber and glued (vulcanized) to the outside perimetre of the seal... that rubber part rubs against the inner surface of the rear axle brake drum... at least the small center part where the the axle shaft is bolted in.......

Include is a picture.......

Can anybody help me source the little suckers?????

Phil.... did you replace yours?????

I have found a similar.....same design in neoprene... at the Weare truck show intended for a 5 ton army truck..... which tells me the design is not outdated and still used...... you guessed it... just a 1/4 inch two big to fit the CMP........

Stefan Leegwater · #2 18-08-05, 07:38

Hi Bob,

Dirk got loads of those, by the way, the FOX also has those but are a little wee bigger, because the end of the axle is a bit larger then a regular cmp axle.

Cheers,

Stefan

Col Tigwell · #3 18-08-05, 14:50

The Victor company until at least 20 years ago, were still in business.

They used to manufacture gaskets for diesel and petrol engines.

When I worked for Kenworth down here, we used to buy lots of kits from them.

I suspect they would still be in business.

Regards

Col Tigwell
Downunder

Stewart Loy · #4 18-08-05, 16:28

Bob,

I hope that you are keeping track of where to get all of these parts for CMP trucks - I will be calling you with many foolish questions as my truck goes back together.

That seal looks very much like the one in the back of a U'Carrier axle - just bigger.

I should get up that way to see your collection before the snow flies again.

Stewart

rob love · #5 18-08-05, 19:05

I usually see that seal in leather; first I heard of it in rubber. I tried about 10 years ago to find that seal for my UC and as well as for a Chev 15cwt I was restoring. The Chev CMPs used it while the Fords had normal oil seals located on the inside of the axle housing next to the diff.
I usually throw them back in to the axle in whatever condition they happen to be in, but really, they aren't neccessary. If you are using a modern inner bearing seal, it will be able to contain what little oil will mix in with the grease. Most trucks today are designed that way. Besides, none of our vehicles are really going that fast or that far anyway, especially not with gas now at over $1 a litre.

The Cdn Forces MLVW (M35Cdn) fleet usues a similar outer seal as well and in that case, it and the little corks that seal the keyway are very critical. In that case the inner seal is a very poorly designed seal that runs against the inner bearings outer race. And since most of the guys use a hammer punch combination to install the race, you can guess what it's surface looks like.

Victor is still in business (as Victor Reinz) but that number doesn't work anymore. The same seal was used in old studebaker trucks, so if your heart is really set on them, you could try a studebaker restoration dealer perhaps.

Bob Carriere · #6 19-08-05, 20:20

Stefan..... I jusy sent an order to Dirk and have listed the part number for the outer seal as listed in the parts manual #5802270
I am awaiting Dirk's reply....

Stewart.... Yes please you are welcome anytime.... all my parts number are recorded and will share with Phil Waterman who is working on a massive spread sheet of up to date numbers and source. Meanwhile if you need numbers quickly drop me a line.

Parts are not cheap.... costing over $550 for seals and bearings on the transfer case..... but all were available as equivalents.

Will check on Victor Reinz on the web.... not sure if a large company will have the time of day for one part from a private individual...... I have had better chance dealing with a broker...called Industrial Solutions here in Ottawa... they even got bearings/seals from California for me.

Rob...... the newer seal I got at the Weare show for $3 was for a larger 5 ton truck.... must be similar to the M35 series.... proves the design is still available and in neoprene rubber. Might not be really needed for the limited driving we do but while I have it apart I might as well look for it......

Will keep you all posted of what I find.....

Col Tigwell · #7 20-08-05, 00:57

Victor unless they have changed their attitude, will bend over backwards.

Their chief came down to Australia, when Kenworth was buying from them, to see if we had interest in representing them. We did not as it conflicted with Head Offices policy.

However their chief sat in my office and said, "we never throw anything away" and reached into his case and brought out a complete gasket set for a model T.

Never found out how he knew I had a model T, but when the Vice President of Gates visited, he reached into his bag, and out came two Model T fan belts, were even the right colour.

I would suggest that you write to Victor, with some colour photos of your unit, and explain the situation, I would be very surprised if your contact creates great interest at their end.

Regards

Col Tigwell
Downunder

Col Tigwell · #8 20-08-05, 01:00

Ooops old age catching up.

Last sentance should read

I would be very surprised, if your contact does not create greate interest their end.

Col

Bob Carriere · #9 20-08-05, 01:50

I have found the Victor site..... and will contact with a photo pfhte part and the ugly duckling..... what is there to lose... and if it works the whole CMP forum can benefit form another source.

Meanwhile, thanks to Forum postings, I was contacted by Brian Ashbury who has a few seals left in stock..... so I can move ahead with finishing the rear axle.....

Wait until you see the nightmare I discovered on the front axle bearings....... in a future seperate illustrated posting......

Thanks for all your help an encouraging response.

Phil Waterman · #10 20-08-05, 23:44

Bob- To your question of what have I done about these seals, not much. I've looked for replacements even talked with Victor and CR representatives basically what they have told me is that the outer-ward sealing seal is an obsolete seal concept as it increase the speed across the seal face. I have encountered two designs of seals on similar to what you are showing and the second is a felt seal between two washers.

I’ve been running my HUP without the outer rear seals for thirty years with no rear axle gear oil making it through to the brakes. If the rear bearings are well packed with bearing grease and the inner axle seal is good there should not be a leakage problem. Add to this the angle that you need to tilt the truck to get the gear oil to start traveling down the axle tubes something like 10 degrees right tilt and 12 left tilt. (see picture)

Checking the 39 and 40 civi Chevrolet truck manuals, they don’t show or list an out-axle seal. I suspect that the outer seal was added as part of increasing the resistance to water infiltration in fording situations. The other advantage of the outer seal is that the axle shaft can be removed without worry of dirt getting into the wheel bearings.

What is important of course is the locking key and pins to keep the nuts from walking off.

Bob Carriere · #11 22-08-05, 04:12

Phil.... you should be on the Discovery channel.......

Good answer...... makes sense...... and Brian Ashbury has some NOS....... so I will install them ....... guess I like the accountant that wears a belt on his pants and suspenders... just to be sure....

BUT... while I got you..... I have been looking at your 300+ pictures and will write back with specific question for clarification... the first one where did you get that hand held spotwelder????.....

Thanks for all you help.... have a look at the T-case tread for another stumper...

Bob C.

rob love · #12 22-08-05, 14:55

I've seen a couple of guys mention about the angles on the rear diffs to make the oil go to one side or the other. Seems to me, with the diff gears spinning and the oil nicely warmed up, the oil is going to splash out to the bearings eventually anyway. The inner seal is the real barrier to stopping the oil from reaching the drums.
The Cdn Forces old chev 5/4 ton rear wheel bearings were oil fed, although you would pack them with grease initially. I remember some of the guys would jack up each end of the axle after having the hubs off to try and prelube the bearings, but I also remember seeing one of those guys siezing up the rear bearings on a road test because they didn't pack some amount of grease into the bearings first.

Phil Waterman · #13 22-08-05, 15:02

Over the years I've ended buying most of welding equipment from http://usaweld.com/ good line of equipment good teck support.

So far I've bought a mig welder, spot welder, and plasma cutter from them.

The plasma cutter is the real gem under a thousand and works great.

Bob Carriere · #14 23-08-05, 03:44

Thanks for the reminder Rob.... I usually make use of a handy little tool that allows me to place the bearing between two discs that screw together ... the central shaft is adapted to take a grease gun..... now with a air powered grease gun it is quite easy.... messy... but easy.

Phil thanks for the tip...found the site..... much better that anything else I have seen so far at the local BOC store..... another toy to sneak in the barn without the wife knowing.....

Phil Waterman · #15 23-08-05, 14:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Thanks for the reminder Rob.... I usually make use of a handy little tool that allows me to place the bearing between two discs that screw together ... the central shaft is adapted to take a grease gun..... now with a air powered grease gun it is quite easy.... messy... but easy.

Phil thanks for the tip...found the site..... much better that anything else I have seen so far at the local BOC store..... another toy to sneak in the barn without the wife knowing.....

Here is a picture of what I first made that tool for, regreasing permantly lubricated bearings.

Bob Carriere · #16 26-08-05, 03:54

UYou must be the most imaginative and creative backyard mechanic that I know..... thanks for sharing.

I was very lucky to get a set of four NOS from Chris Vickery.... save my bacon he did..... they came in neat little sardine cans full of oil... fully lubricated since 1940.....

According to the shop manual they are not to be immersed in cleaning fluid since they are difficult to re-lubricate... of course they did not know about you when the book was written..

Keep creating and sharing.....

Bob