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  #1  
Old 13-11-18, 05:51
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Default Centurion Fuel Filter

Hi,
I'm looking for some parts help. Our Mk 5/2 Centurion has a fuel filter mounted on the front bulkhead of the engine compartment, differing from the Mk3 and Mk5 parts manuals I have, which show the filter integral with the fuel tank switchover valve in the fighting compartment. The switchover valve we have is for the left, right, and long range tank in the rear but the valve is just a plain valve and does not include the filter assembly like the parts manuals show. So I think this was an official modification, especially as the filter has the British BSPP fittings on the inlet and outlet.

I just have the top housing, no filter element. There is no manufacturers name on it but it has a catalogue number stamped in tiny numbers, FD2189. The recommended replacement element also stamped on it is FG2398/2??.
Is this still available or does anyone have any spare elements? Or any suggestions for a replacement?
I searched the forums and the part numbers but no luck.

Thanks,
Malcolm
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Old 13-11-18, 11:57
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is online now
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googling your element number FG2398/2 suggests a crossover to NSN 2940998812191 which lead to several listings for filter elements. One on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRITISH-F...-/202204661217 has photo. The photo shows FG2398/203 on the element, I don't know enough about the relevant numbering system to know if this represents a minor variant or a completely different filter. I suggest more research.....
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  #3  
Old 13-11-18, 13:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie View Post
Hi,
I'm looking for some parts help. Our Mk 5/2 Centurion has a fuel filter mounted on the front bulkhead of the engine compartment, differing from the Mk3 and Mk5 parts manuals I have, which show the filter integral with the fuel tank switchover valve in the fighting compartment. The switchover valve we have is for the left, right, and long range tank in the rear but the valve is just a plain valve and does not include the filter assembly like the parts manuals show. So I think this was an official modification, especially as the filter has the British BSPP fittings on the inlet and outlet.

I just have the top housing, no filter element. There is no manufacturers name on it but it has a catalogue number stamped in tiny numbers, FD2189. The recommended replacement element also stamped on it is FG2398/2??.
Is this still available or does anyone have any spare elements? Or any suggestions for a replacement?
I searched the forums and the part numbers but no luck.

Thanks,
Malcolm
Try Tim Vibert in Australia for Centurion parts.

http://www.timvibert.com.au/

Tim
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  #4  
Old 14-11-18, 06:19
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Thanks, Grant. I need to hone my Googling skills obviously. Yes, the part number stamped on the filter looks like FG2398/203. Now I realize that I'm missing the canister for the filter element you found. We have parts scattered all over the site and a gate guard Centurion. I need to go looking for the canister.

Tim, yes, I've been in contact with Tim Vibert for other obscure parts. If it's that difficult to get a filter, I think I might switch to a generic filter so I can buy the element locally.

Malcolm
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  #5  
Old 14-11-18, 11:39
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Malcolm,

Good to see you on the weekend.

I believe most strongly that is the same element as used in the fuel filter for the Ferrets. It goes by the name of a Vokes fuel filter.

They are available from the UK from Marcus Glenn as well as Australia however Khaki Imports in the US may have stock also.

The link to Marcus Glenn here https://marcusglenn.com/parts/daimle...ilter-element- shows the element without the cage assembly around it and one can re use the old cage but it is a pain.

According to Allan Duffy you have tons of Ferret spares on site so maybe you have them already.
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Old 15-11-18, 03:31
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Robin,
I cleaned some more paint of the filter and found it was made by Tecalemit. It's very similar to a Vokes. But I assume it would have a much higher flow rating for the Meteor engine.
Malcolm
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Old 18-09-19, 01:22
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Hi Malcolm

did you ever solve your filter hunt? Perhaps with a locally sourced element? I am in the same boat as you, our Mk5 has the filter on the RH firewall just inside the engine compartment, not as pictured in the manual as adjacent to the fuel tap which is not anywhere near the filter. Made a rookie mistake and ran our Centurion out of fuel, and in process of checking the system decided we best look at the filter and it needs replacing about 100 years ago. Also I discovered the kigass pump on the rear wall of the fighting compartment is only to atomize fuel from the filter and shoot it into the carbs to aid starting, we had assumed it was like the primer on a CAT diesel and it would pressure up the entire system..evidently not! There are actually priming levers on each fuel pump though again I am unclear if they are simply from the filter on or they would allow the fuel to be drawn from the tank...any ideas?

John
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  #8  
Old 18-09-19, 02:42
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John,
Yes, I bought the filter element Grant found for me on eBay in the post above.

I was also missing the canister for the element so I had to make one, but it sounds like you have the complete filter assembly.

Yes, the priming levers on the two mechanical fuel pumps work quite well. If you can't feel any resistance on the lever, crank the engine over a bit to get the pump arm off the lobe of the cam and try again. Usually one of them is off the lobe and will pump. You can hear the fuel sloshing into the carbs when they are pumping.

They're are a diaphragm pump so they should easily lift fuel from the tanks but only if the check valves in them are in reasonable condition. I had to remove the pumps and clean them so I dismantled the check valves and cleaned them as well.

I noticed after a test run where the engine got up to full temp, and was then not run for a while, it would take a lot of priming to get the carbs filled up again ( to avoid prolonged cranking). I wonder if the hot location of the carbs down in the valley evaporates the fuel quickly after shutdown.

I fitted a fuel pressure gauge in the common supply to the two carbs so I could see when the carbs were full and the lines were pressurized while priming. Good troubleshooting tool for fuel supply and fuel pump problems as well.

I'm using the long range fuel tank hanging off the back of the tank as the main tank, which is rather a long way away and may require much pumping of the hard-to-access priming levers, so I'm considering installing a priming tee connection through the bulkhead where I can hook up a Mityvac hand pump for filling the lines at least up to the filters after prolonged storage.

Regards,
Malcolm
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Old 18-09-19, 07:07
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Malcolm can you please post a picture of as much of the fuel filter head as you can please.

I really deeply suspect there is some commonality from elsewhere.
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Old 19-09-19, 00:53
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john the ki gas puts atomized fuel through jets into the inlet manifold. pump it 3 times and press the small brass button underneath to operate when it's really cold.
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  #11  
Old 19-09-19, 05:47
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
Malcolm can you please post a picture of as much of the fuel filter head as you can please.

I really deeply suspect there is some commonality from elsewhere.
Robin, I agree. As long as the fuel filter can handle the flow of about 250 litres per hour associated with max power of 650 HP and a horribly rich AFR of about 11:1, it wil do the job.

For any Cent with the original 1/2" tubing (which is a reasonable size to supply 650 HP), it would be good if it had 1/2" tubing connections, and even better if it had the option of the male half of the original vintage UNN BSP fittings used, which had a nut and a nipple soldered to the end of the 1/2" tubing.

I'll post some photos of the filter and the fittings.
Malcolm
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  #12  
Old 19-09-19, 07:02
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Thanks Rick, initially I thought that pump would be for priming the entire system but know I now better.

Malcolm my filter is also a Tecalemit, so I will track a few down. My LH fuel pump has some resistance so it feels like it will pump up, any idea how long that should take? I had the filter canister off and was hoping to have fuel beginning to drip from the filter head, but I quit before this occurred.

The manual states to start the APU and then it will fill the filters, but as we have never had the APU running yet, I was hoping for another angle to get fuel to the filters. Our Centurion only has the rear LR tank, all others have been removed. We had success before putting air to the filler on the LR tank and it seemed to push the fuel to the carbs easily, but this time the trick did not work, maybe now with a clean filter we will have success.

Perhaps the one way valves in the fuel pumps are faulty and allowing the fuel to leak back to the tank and lose it's prime. Be nice to mount a pair of spin on filters on the engine compartment firewall, primary with a water separator and a secondary to the engine
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Old 20-09-19, 02:54
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John
Since you emptied the carbs, the filter, and the line to the LR tank, it will take a while to fill the carbs again even if the pump check valves are good, I'm guessing 50 strokes?

The pumps suck fuel from the tank so you won't get any fuel flowing with the filter canister off because you have a huge vacuum leak!

I suggest installing a tee in the fuel line downstream of the filter so you can temporarily connect a handheld vacuum pump like a Mityvac to suck fuel from the tank into the filter. Or you could remove one of those nice brass knurled vent plugs from the top of the filter, drill it, and solder on a connection there.

Putting air pressure to the tank to push fuel to the filter may not be working now because there in a vent on the LR tank, that strange rhomboid shaped block sitting at the rear of the tank cover. It has small vent holes on the underside. I managed to get the tiny Allen screws out (I think I used heat) and remove the vent and found the air passage underneath completely blocked by sand and dust. When you applied air, maybe you blew a similar blockage out.

I don't think bad check valves in the fuel pumps will allow flow back into the tank because the tank outlet is it at top of the tank and the carbs can't drain and the fuel pumps are much lower so the fuel won't gravity flow to the tank.

Did you take the tank top cover off? The standpipe going down into the tank had rusted away about 6" from the bottom on ours. I soldered a new section on to get the pipe extended back down so it fitted inside the fine mesh screen at the bottom of the tank. The screen is accessed by removing the smaller cover on the underside of the tank. The bolts on the tank are all SAE, not BSF, in case you hadn't noticed!


Malcolm
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  #14  
Old 23-09-19, 02:48
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
Malcolm can you please post a picture of as much of the fuel filter head as you can please.

I really deeply suspect there is some commonality from elsewhere.
Robin,
Photo attached. Let me know if you need more.

Malcolm

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  #15  
Old 23-09-19, 12:02
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Malcolm that is a new beast to me. Let me digest that for a day or so.
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Old 23-09-19, 23:45
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john i also ran it dry and it was a real to get it primed again. trouble is i can't remember how we did but i'm fairly sure we cracked a pipe union before the pump and sucked it through
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  #17  
Old 24-09-19, 23:57
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Thanks Gentlemen, I am going to spend some time on it this weekend. Malcolm it looks to me like someone has gone through the trouble of installing a hose barb in the fuel line then plugging it off, could this be what you were planning to do with a fitting for a vacuum pump? I will open up the tank and make sure we do not have any problems in the pickup as well.

I think I will make sure the line is clear, and I am contemplating adapting a spin on fuel filter between the tank and the pump and eliminating the old canister one entirely. As well I may bypass the aux engine for now until we get it running and running reliably.

John
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Old 26-09-19, 02:05
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Ok so had a good look at it today, removed the line from the LR tank to the hull, blew it back through with air, all clear, had a good look in tank with remote camera and flashlight and eyeballs, Rick you must have cleaned that tank because its clean! Pickup tube intact and the air flowed easy. So removed the feed line on the inlet side of the filter and blew that line back toward the tank (still unhooked so no debris blown into the tank), seems clear. I think the only problem is getting the fuel to and filling the filter. Someone has already plumbed in a union which had a hose barb attached on the line between the filter outlet and before the line splits to go to each pump. So my next move is to do as Malcolm suggested and use a might vac to draw the fuel from the tank, into the filters and then I can use the fuel pump levers to send the fuel up to the carbs...oh but first I am waiting on Canada post to deliver my filter...no domestic sources that I can find...I think replacing the filter with a spin on with locally available replacements is still on the horizon. The original filter was not in good shape and had about an inch of "mud" in the bottom of the canister.
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Old 26-09-19, 04:22
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John, I've been experimenting with the Mity-vac. We don't have the engine in yet and I redid all the tubing from the tank to the selector valve (rebuilt) to the filter (rebuilt) to the block on the bulkhead used to supply the Ki-gass hand pump. So I expected leaks. Sure enough the Mity-vac didn't pull any fuel so I hooked up one of those tools Princess's Auto sells for sucking oil out of engine sumps. It's a really neat tool. Basically it's a massive hand vacuum pump. That generated enough vacuum I could hear the leaks and fix them. Then back to the Mity-vac. Now it worked but it really doesn't like gasoline so when it sucks some in, it "delubricates" the internal rubber piston seals and gets tight to operate.

But usually with a Mity-vac, you get a little canister which acts like a catch can - you pull a vacuum on it and the fluid gets sucked into the canister and not into the Mity-vac. I'll check the canister out tomorrow and see if it works.

That hose barb you have between the filter and the fuel pumps sounds perfect for pulling a vacuum to at least fill the filter and get fuel to the pumps. It only takes around 2" Hg of vacuum to pull the fuel from the tank.

It's getting close. Should have the engine in and aligned, and the old girl driving by the end of October. I checked out the gear ratios in the transmission as the track pins are rusted up and it will take some oomph to get the tank to move initially. I definitely don't want to stress the clutch. The low reverse gear ratio is 22:1 - I've never heard of such a low gear ratio in a vehicle! (Car reverse gear ratios are usually about 4:1.) That should get her moving. There's only about 10' between the tank and the back wall but with that gear ratio, the wall shouldn't be a problem.
Malcolm
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Old 27-09-19, 01:15
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Hi Malcolm

that sounds like a good plan, I will hook up the Mighty vac and catch the fuel in the canister, I was wondering about the fuel effect on the pump internals. We didn't appear to have any leaks before so hopefully we are close to a solution. I think the hose barb fitting has been installed for this very reason and if Rick's experience and ours is any indication, it is a common problem in this system. I was looking at the picture of your filter canister assembly you posted for Robin and it appears that the can on this tank is about twice as long as the one you have...but it seems to take the same filter...odd. I am going to replace the filter head in future and use a CAT fuel filter head, this will provide much better filtration, give the tank a water separator and no restriction like an inline filter may. Even though guys around here are running inline Holley filters on their performance cars right up to 8-900hp. One suggestion was an inline electric lift pump that could be switched on after protracted static periods or after maintenance. But again, I don't want to do anything to help restrict fuel flow. Even though my wallet $$$ would thank me if I could figure out a way to make this thing more fuel efficient...We honestly keep running out of fuel because of the sheer disbelief we could have consumed 100 gallons so quickly...mileage must be in the range of 6-8 gallons to the mile!

It is the first tank I have had that actually has a low and high reverse gear...and trust me...low is low...barely a walking pace. But once she is going it steers like a toy, super responsive, neutral turns, fantastic.
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Old 27-09-19, 03:02
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John, I rummaged around in the random spares we have here and found a new fuel/water separator for a Diesel engine. It makes a perfect Mityvac canister with an inlet, outlet, drain valve, and opaque bowl so you can see the level. I have attached a couple of photos. I'll mount it on the fighting compartment side of the bulkhead.

The filter head is original but there was no canister or element support hardware for it so I made a new canister from a auxiliary engine oil filter. It was heavily modified to get it to work, including shortening it. A spin on element is definitely the way to go.

6-8 mpg? That's fantastic! The manual says 1/4 mpg off road and 1/2 mpg on road so you're doing well! I did a quick calculation. Making 650 hp continuously for an hour burns 50 UK gallons. At top speed, the tank would travel 25 miles in an hour. So fuel consumption would be 1/2 mpg. So the manual numbers are based on continuous WOT operation, which is a bit unrealistic if you're just driving around a tank arena like we'll be doing.

So she's nice to drive. That's good to hear. What about the dreaded gearshifting I've heard so many bad stories about?

Malcolm
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Old 27-09-19, 09:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
We honestly keep running out of fuel because of the sheer disbelief we could have consumed 100 gallons so quickly...mileage must be in the range of 6-8 gallons to the mile!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie
6-8 mpg? That's fantastic! The manual says 1/4 mpg off road and 1/2 mpg on road so you're doing well!
Not miles per gallon, gallons per mile. I've been told by a Cent owner that 4 Gallons to the mile is typical, ie one Jerry Can for 1.5Km, and that's premium petrol. A 205L drum (aka 44Gal or 55 US Gal) of AVGAS is the price for a 15Km burst around the paddocks. I can't complain about the CMP, positively frugal in comparison.
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Old 27-09-19, 18:21
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Malcolm that is a good setup! I am jealous of the amount of space in there with no engine installed! The gear shifting is something to get used to for sure, we don't have much space so if I can get into third I feel like I am going 100mph! Gear changes require double clutching but unlike a normal highway truck as soon as you push in the clutch and move the stick to neutral the tank instantly loses momentum and if you aren't quick you are stopping, starting in the basement and trying again. Normally you can start out on flat ground in second gear which really helps, the upshift from 1-2 i find quite difficult but 2-3 is a snap now...Tony you have burst my fuel mileage pipe dream, but what you say makes sense and explains why we are in this mess...disbelief! Perhaps I will have to start including a fuel level check on first parade!
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Old 28-09-19, 02:20
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Boy, did I misread that! Wishful thinking.

One circuit of our tank arena is about 1/4 mile and we'd normally do about 5 circuits in a show, so about a jerry can. That's not too bad. We don't have the space for an extended drive unfortunately. And the steel tracks prevent us from going off-site.

John, I've found a neat 12V pump for pre-start priming the engine with oil. Puts out about 35 psi and only draws 6 amps. I'll put it to the test when I prime the engine after installation and let you know.

Malcolm
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Old 30-09-19, 22:47
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john you are right we did clean the fuel system from the tank forward, i was conscious of the cost of a dead tank needing transport all the way to your place.
don't over think priming the fuel system, just crack a union after the filter and suck it through with a cheap plastic bulb pump (like the ones you get on an outboard)
you can't really double declutch on the way up the box, only works on the way down due to loosing speed. you need to learn to stick change. it's quite easy and you'll be super slick once it's mastered. engage clucth, move gear lever to neutral, flick any steering tiller back, engage next gear. release clutch. simples
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Old 01-10-19, 00:31
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There are currently 24v fuel pumps at princess auto in the surplus section for about $14.99 each. I believe they are salvaged from some larger piece of equipment, and appear to be brand new. With one of those and an inline check valve, it should be possible to set up a priming system for any 24 volt vehicle.



The pump is the same pump we used on multiple types of equipment back in my days in the military. I bought 3 or 4 for future use.



Just thought I would mention it in case it was of any use to those in Canada.
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Old 01-10-19, 04:09
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Good to know. I'll check it out.
Malcolm
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Old 05-10-19, 00:11
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Excellent suggestions all, appears we may have a bigger problem, I now have fuel on the carb side of the fuel pumps, but so far no start...not enough time at the moment to go further but hopefully next week can steal an afternoon to see what is up. Rick I have been hoping to try that steering trick but one small hurdle first...it has to run! Wondering if possibly we are having an electrical fault and no spark...Is there a test for the booster coil? Cant do a mag drop test from the drivers hole until she is running. Need to pull a sparkplug and check we have spark but currently not enough hands available. I have also read that a low coolant situation can trip the mags and ground them to prevent driving in that event...has anyone encountered this? I am going to grab one of those fuel pumps Rob suggested for future use. Would seem very odd if both mags quit at once would it not? Rick I will be in touch next week to get those parts from you and have them sent off to Carl's...almost brave enough to try sending the container back to Canada...almost
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Old 05-10-19, 04:04
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John, it takes a lot of pumps of the priming lever on whichever fuel pump is pumping to fill both carbs. When the carbs are full enough to close the float needles, you should feel the priming lever stroke doing less work.

You can test the booster coil by unscrewing the booster coil connection from the right hand mag and holding the end about 1/4" from a ground while pressing the starter button. (The booster coil only works while the starter button is pressed.) You should see lots of sparking.
But based on my experience, the booster coil provides very little assist to starting. I bought a NOS one and it bench tested ok. But when I cranked the engine with just the booster coil providing the spark, it just fired occasionally and came no where near starting. As soon as I put the mags in service, she fired right up. I figure I wasted $400.

On our Mk 5/2, there's no shutoff on low coolant. There's no level switch on the header tank, nor on the wiring diagram, and the only thing that grounds the mags and stops sparking is switching the ignition switch to off, or pressing the mag test buttons.

Malcolm
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Old 06-10-19, 06:54
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jdmcm jdmcm is offline
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Well got the old girl fired up today and she is running better than ever! The new fuel filter has made a difference for sure. Took many, many primer strokes to get the fuel pushed up in to the carbs...hundreds before any resistance could be felt, and I hit the old kigass pump about ten times and then got the first sputter from the engine in 3 weeks...so back at it with the priming, and some accelerator pedal action and she is alive...hopefully next week I will get a chance to try the lever flick shift test...just happy that she's back running...unlike a Sherman, moving a dead Centurion is not for the faint of heart or stingy wallet.

1st Parade....CHECK FUEL!!!!!!!
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