Suspension dismantling - balls and shafts

[cantankrs]

Hi,

My Dad is restoring an Australian LP2a Carrier and we like to try and save as much as we can rather than pinch bits from another restorable hull and thus deprive anyone else. So he's been doing everything he can to entice the balls to seperate from the shafts that run thru the suspension springs. After 60 years or so they've 'grown' together with rust

The only other thread that I've found so far mentioning this is David Ellery's terrific resto starting c.2006.

Just wondering if anyone else would mind sharing their struggles with this specific aspect of restoring carriers. I'll also post some pics of my Dad (Bruce's) efforts shortly.

Regards

Alex

[Lynn Eades]

Put the rod assy in a press, on a plate with a hole it, and push against the spring. be careful. I,ve fought and struggled with mine, but it was a while ago, and at that time I had access to some good gear, like the 100 ton press.
The plates between the springs sit against a collar on the rod, so each comes off their own end. If your rods are rusted to the balls, then they cant have been too badly worn
David started with not much. He told me that he had all his springs made.

It would be good if you can run a few photos of the process. no doubt it will help a few people who havent done theirs yet.

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

It would be good if you can run a few photos of the process. no doubt it will help a few people who havent done theirs yet.

Thanks Lynn,

Bruce pressed a bogie assy apart which was a a tough job and required plenty of heat too. Then he soaked a spring assy in citric acid bath for about 3 days and that cleaned up everything except where the balls were rusted to the rod. So then he tried pressing and also resorted to a lot of Oxy to heat the ball up trying to not get much heat into the rod or springs. Heating and cooling didn't seem to break the 'hold' of the rusted interface but finally his press got it moving and apart. He repeated for the ball on the other end of the rod. So this method got one spring assy dismantled and I'll post the job in two lots. The sandblasted and primed pics I'll put up soon.

Regards

Alex

[cantankrs]

Here's the remaining pics prior to sandblasting and priming. Pic one looks like a fair bit of an angle. Edit: The rod did bend.

Alex

[cantankrs]

per attached:

[cantankrs]

Second style of clamp plate for press. Didn't have a bought bearing clamp so made one to suit. Edit: Mk2 was unsuccessful at freeing the balls and he thinks that's because they were the lower ones and had rusted together worse than the top ball/cones. This Mk2 plate was in Bruce's opionion far superior to the original as it prevented the spring from being a factor where the Mk1 clamp gripped the outer sping and caused the ball and rod to lean in the press.

[cantankrs]

Rest of pics. Unfortunately this plate didn't result in a ball being released so Dad made the decision to cut the rod and mount each end stub in the lathe and drill out most of the rod before driving the remains out to free up the balls.

[JackM]

Alex,

I had the same problem when I restored a couple of carriers for the Museum in Fremantle.

I tried almost everything to remove the shaft from the ball/cone, but all I did in the end was to bend the shaft by applying too much pressure while trying to separate the two, in a press.

They are often rusted in very tightly, as you have found.

My solution was to find some spare suspension bogeys and cut the pieces I needed from them, ie I cut the springs off one set to get decent shafts and the shafts off another, to get the springs.

Wasteful I know, but there is often no viable alternative.


Jack

[Ron Pier]

Fortunately I haven't had to attempt this yet. But just reading these problems and wondering how I would procede. I like the sound of Bruce's idea to cut and bore out the shaft. I think it would be simpler and cheaper to make new shafts rather than getting new springs made. Ron

[cantankrs]

Hi Ron,

Bruce found the taper of the ball/cone made it difficult to chuck them securely in the lathe especially so that they'd run true the full length. Consequently the morse taper drill he was finishing with snagged when in deep and twisted off part of the drill thus stuffing it. Maybe boring a taper or step-boring into a length of round or square bar stock and tacking the ball into it might help but one is trying not to tool up for mass production where it can be avoided

He is looking into making new shafts but hasn't decided yet.
Jack, appreciate your experiences. I think by compressing the springs Bruce managed to cut the shaft without damaging the springs (or is that one of the things you also did) but I'll get him to verify that to me and let you know.

Regards

Alex

[Lynn Eades]

If you can push the ball down the rod against the spring, and get som oil, or clean up the rod, the spring will push the ball the other way. So I found that by compressing against the sping enough times that eventually the spring pushed the ball back, and freed up. Obviously yours are in a worse state to start with. Some are so worn, that they will never rust up.
Keep in mind that, that ball runs in a fibre cup in the bogie casting, and if the ball is not in fairly reasonable condition , it will destroy that bearing. There tend to be more suspension bits around than carriers now, so throwing stuffed bits away (when you have others) is not such a crime.
I have been lucky enough to be able to pick the best from a pile of bits.

[cantankrs]

Hi Lynn,

Thanks. You mention that the cup lining/insulator is fibre - do you have any thoughts on whether the cup linings could be replicated? Are they leather? Apparently some of these linings are in a bad way already. They're riveted to the cup aren't they?

I've taken note about what you wrote re the ball heads should be pretty smooth to protect the cups - do you know what the balls are made of? Since they've been heated so far already, perhaps the heads could be bronzed up and smoothed off to restore their surface?

Thanks

Alex

[Lynn Eades]

The balls are quite hard. The cups are like a brake lining - may even be ferodo.
Yes they are riveted in. I put mine in with Araldite - not yet proven
Alex if the balls are nbg, why dont you put the word out, and ask about the cups at the same time.
I think the cups would be hard to make, because of the shape, unless you found a modern material, in a sheet form, that could be pushed into shape. I think thats a big ask.

[motto]

I would suggest that durathane for the cups might be a practical material. It makes excellent suspension bushes and is machineable. May cost a bit though.
David

[mkc2862]

Hi,

I'm new here so please forgive me if I sound stupid...I wonder if you couldn't have new ball ends and rods made instead of going through the drama of trying to re-use rusted ones? I'd imagine you would have thought of this though and I suppose it might be expensive. A CNC would spit them out quite quickly...

I'm also curious if you have thought to make up drawings of these and other components so that spares might be made.

I am interested in carriers, but my finances would only support a tamiya 1/35th scale. It has crossed my mind however to obtain drawings and maybe - as a long term project - build a carrier.

Michael

[cantankrs]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your input. Welcome to MLU, and all the best with any future projects.

You are quite right in that trying to free up rusted bits is a questionable route. With the cost of Oxy these days, and the amount that we and a lot of readers probably go thru, and the amount of time making special tools to hold or disassemble parts, whether to salvage or manufacture is a valid question.

On the other hand making a part involves money (in materials if you do it yourself, and in the cost of labour as well if you farm it out). Also it requires some thought and research into the particular materials required.
We've gathered over the years more machine tools and equipment than the average enthusiast so we figure we might as well use it. Also turning and welding (especially stick welding) if we do it ourselves, are very time consuming tasks. We tend to do 99% of jobs with the 4 jaw chucks rather than swap the not particularly accurate 3 jaws into position, so setting up in the lathes takes time not to mention getting things right for thread cutting. Setting up in the mill takes time too. So we try and rescue what we can.

Having said that Bruce has bought some hi-tensile rod with the view to making some rods up. I'll keep you all posted on that.

Scratch building something is a big job. Making something to be identical to the original without detailed, accurate, drawings or at least loaned parts to copy from is pretty impossible. If you want a carrier then gradually tracking down bits or buying them if you come across them (if the price is acceptable) is the most practical way to go.

Regards

Alex

[cantankrs]

Dad cut the rods with the oxy after finding a spot he could get between the springs. He slipped some RHS over each end leaving just the spot to cut visible and did the deed and the ends flew off in opposite directions with a LOT of energy. David Ellery mentioned in his thread that the springs were a real handful (dangerous) to reassemble until he rigged up a suitable tool to contain them. Bruce'll be doing something similar.

He also cut and shut a pair of return roller axle lugs from a rusted out bogie onto a bogie he's restoring, then blasted and primed them. Also since his sandblasting gear is located over a hundred miles away he took the early opportunity to blast one of the cut rod w/ rusted ball before he'll get time to drill out the rod remains. Pics below. The first pic was the bogie doner! Note the floor is in two sections - inspection of the floor shows it wasn't cut apart - it cracked right across. Happened sometime between about 1992 and 2007 because when I first tracked these remains down it was cut down to the same extent but the floor was still together. Mike Cecil commented in Keith's Year of the Carrier DVD that cracking of aged ABP-3 in Aust built carriers was a problem for restorers. Also on a further side note I've read in 'The Role of Science and Industry' (Mellor, I think) that the steel used in the Australian Cruiser tank (Sentinel) hulls that were cast by Bradford Kendall were derived from the ABP-3 formula, along with special heat treatment as well, to achieve the resulting acceptable ballistic properties. A fantastic achievement by BK.

Alex

[David Ellery]

Alex go carefully with the reassembly of the guide rod and springs as once compressed there is a hell of alot of force waiting to let go and you have to lift the whole lot into position with the bogie frames before letting of the tension. I used a builders sash cramp and ended up welding it to both balls as I had 2 attempts initially without welding and the sash slipped off with explosive results If you can get hold of the spring dismantling tool (Australian) that will make the job so much easier, as I was offered one to use after I had done the job and wished it had shown up earlier ! Good Luck and thanks for posting the pics. Look forward to them ! David.

[mkc2862]

Hi Alex, guys,

I appreciate the costs involved Alex and I thought that would be the prohibitive thing. I work in a workshop which has a CNC lathe and as I was reading this post about cutting the rods etc I thought how easy it would be to knock some up on the 'NC at work. Of course doing 'foreigners' is frowned upon at work, but sometimes we get away with it

Having a carrier or any other sort of wartime vehicle is out of the question for me at the moment and the froreseeable future - no money, no room, no time. I keep myself amused by collecting drawings and pictures of things I'd like to have or make. Oneday, I might even do something.

Incidentally, there was a carrier here less than a K away for sale some years ago. At the time the bloke wanted $12K for it. I don't know where it ended up.

Enjoying your photo's and conversations on these restorations.

Cheers,

Michael

[cantankrs]

Hi Michael,

If I won a big Lotto, a CNC lathe would really be somewhere on the list!

Regards

Alex

[cantankrs]

Dad tried to cut one of his oxy'd shafts in the power hacksaw across the collar that the centre spring retainers bear against (to check if it was a sleeve) and it just rubbed back and forth with NO cut progress.

When he tried to part a bit of rod off from one of the ball/cones in the lathe it took the tip off the parting tool.

So he cut through the collar with a cut off wheel and found that it's definitely a sleeve as you can see the join but as to how it's fastened he's not sure. He didn't find a cross pin, nor bronze. He concedes that it was in the dark so possibly he may have ground away the pin with the width of the disc..

He wonders what process they used to heat treat these? The parting tool got under the surface of the rod O. K. but had trouble further in. Maybe some sort of spring steel? They were made of good stuff!

Regards

Alex

[cantankrs]

Hi,

Anyone able to post some pics of the tool mentioned by David in his post above?

Thanks

Alex

[colin jones]

Hello everyone, I asume this is the tool dave is talking about.
Colin.

[David Ellery]

Yep thats the tool, simple and effective. As Rob Beale posted about this tool earlier, if your using Brit/Canadian rods you can machine the inner workings to suit the different threads .Australian part number 317. David.

[John Mackie]

I know how hard rusted bits can be to dismantle.Iwas relitively lucky with my carrier, although I have a bogie axle I cant move!! Regarding replacing the spring units I used a Ford tool which was used instead of the pinion yoke when seting up the diff. It is similar to the one shewn except it has a lefthand thread on the loose nut. it worked ok for me. I have some rods, balls and springs left over that may be helpfull. John.

[cantankrs]

Hi All,

Dad fabricated this radius turning tool for cleaning up the ball/cones in the lathe. Some were too pitted so he built them up with stick welder and rough ground by hand and then radius turned in lathe. The balls that had the remains of oxy'd rods still had hard rust encrustation that the drilling operation didn't get so I think he's found that aiming the sandblaster in there for a while is about the only way to chase it out.

He's got about 3 new rods nearly finished.

Thanks for the info and pics above about the on-carrier suspension spring compression tool, but has anyone got a pic of the repair depot tool that compressed the whole spring assembly in one action?

Thanks

Alex

[T Creighton]

Hi Guys,

I have been watching this discussion with interest. Don't have a carrier but have had to free up lots of rusted up things over the years. There is usually an alternative.
Maybe in this case some replacement bits from:

http://www.tractorlinkageparts.net/

Cheers,
Terry

[BruceMcD]

Hi all,I am Dad!
Re the suspension cushion material,I have found some poly ethylene (High Density)Sheet 6 mm thick black.I have made up a simple drawing tool male and female and the sheet draws in this mold under the press when mold and sheet is around 110Deg ,must not exceed 200 deg damages it .What i have found is that it needs to cool whilst pressed as it draws back a fair bit if the press is withdrawn straight away.When set the lower slotted hole can be milled,then the rectangular residu jig sawed off,then final finish on a off hand grinder.Then align with slot in casting and knock in with press male tool.Remove press tool and give it several hits on the edges of the cup.Its then ready for drilling.countersinking inside the cup then riviting.
Now it looks good and I hope it doesn't squeeze out.Alex will post some photos soon.
Regards,

Bruce.

[Keith Webb]

I have now secured a number of these NOS if anyone is interested, please send me a PM.

[cantankrs]

Thanks Keith, I believe Dad has responded.

For everyone, thought I'd better mention the ID of the carrier Dad is restoring. We'll start another thread later to show the rest of his progress. The hull is only missing the section of side plate shown. But the floor had some pox, and the steering rods, forks, bellcranks were almost rusted away. It has a number of fittings so that was nice.

These two pics were taken on the day of its recovery in early 2008.

Alex