Cab 11 C15 and 2A1 body - Page 2

cletrac (RIP) · #31 19-05-07, 04:16

I crawled under the C15 today to check the engine casting number on the block. There's a GM and under that is 839180. Is this the number that indicates the manufacturing date? The # off the Maple Leaf engine I got for my C8 is 839132. Behind the starter on this block is CON3 A212. Tomorrow I'll check the #s on the one out of the C8. Any help on dates would be appreciated.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #32 19-05-07, 11:02

The # 839180 is the casting number, and is that allcoated to around the 1940-41 period. Near it is the the date code. The other Block # is 839132, which is the 1940-41 216 Block number, and A 21 2 indicates January 21st 1942. That would suggest that it was ex-military.

cletrac (RIP) · #33 19-05-07, 21:36

David, here's a few more numbers for you. The motor I took out of my C8 has casting # 839253 with a build code of K 11 1 which I gather is Nov 11, 1041, so this won't be original in a Cab 11.
My HUP has the original motor with casting # 839253 and date code B 3 3 which is Feb 3, 1943. The serial # is FR 3889179 and the truck date of manufacture is Feb 25, 1943. I guess it didn't take very long to get the motors from the engine plant to the truck plant.
I'll have to take the starter off the C15 one of these days so I can see the date code on that one too, but with no serial # on the engine I'd say it's not the original engine.

cletrac (RIP) · #34 22-05-07, 01:37

The adjustable mirror arm in this photo is off the C15. My Cab 11 C8 uses the same type arms. The yellow one is off a Cab 11 C15A. I looked at my picture collection and very few Cab 11s had the solid arms. When would this change have been made?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #35 22-05-07, 08:58

Spot on with the numbers David!

As to shifting these engines..if you think about it The McKinnon Industries Ltd in St Catherines, Ontario which had then to be railed to Windsor, and then built up, and finally railed on to Oshawa for assembly into chassis. My information has it that 5604 engines were assembled in Windsor in February 1943, with over 6000 in March 1943. I have seen a photo of hundreds of engines stored at Windsor awaiting shipping...the one that you referred to must have shifted very quickly otherwise it could just be a replacement I suppose (without knowing what the build plate states was the original).

We know that human nature being what it is, the guys on the floor reached for the nearest parts to use and so sometimes they were installed quicker than other parts that were at the back of the pile or store. Hence the disparity in engine numbers versus chassis numbers. I have often wondered whether there were any missives from management in auto plants to use up the old stock at the back of the storage area, or bottom of the stacked crates.

cletrac (RIP) · #36 22-05-07, 14:57

David, on that HUP the engine serial # matches the # on the data plate..

David_Hayward (RIP) · #37 22-05-07, 15:05

That's pretty good going then! As i said you can imagine that a partilcular engine is placed down at the front of a huge are of similar units, and then taken away and railed off, and then chosen again, so that the factors align.

On the other hand there were serious out-of-sequence numbers where engines presumably stuck at the back, or perhaps had a problem than needed rectifying, and so were used much later. However it gives us some idea of dating engines by their number. Thanks very much for the input; more is needed!

Bob Carriere · #38 22-05-07, 20:24

....... read with interest the old messages you included in your email David....... but all of that information "seems" to be referring to trucks that were shipped overseas for assembly......

In the case of Cletrac and my C15a cab 11.... those must have been fully assembled in Canada..... and suffered from parts availability such as a Ford grill on my Chev, etc.......

I have to check back on my early, 3 years ago, emails that we exchanged on the origin of my truck.....

Is it possible that those trucks assembled in Canada for use in Canada may have been somewhat erratically built with earlier changes to design......... for example....... if memory serves me right my cab 11 tags related to May 1940.....yet I have the vent holes and the second fender bar brace..... and the front axle contained the R-Zeppa inner shafts...???

My seat backs are also one piece....????

Now I must add that I cannot prove that any parts on my truck are original to the initial assembly....what with all field repairs and parts switching based on what was available ......

So what do we know about the trucks built in Canada for use in Canada.....????

Bob

David_Hayward (RIP) · #39 22-05-07, 21:48

Bob, interesting points there! Who can say whether cabs with no holes or vents were mixed on the line with those with ventilation? There must have been a period when cabs (from Fords) were being delivered and then stored in the changeover period and some mixing-up occurred.

The only differences that I know of in these early trucks btween Canadian D.N.D. and British orders was from the DND papers:

Quote:

Another concern in Ottawa was that the British orders varied slightly from the Canadian vehicles. The D.M.A. [Director of Munitions and Artillery] had to reprove [British] Col. Butler through Lieut.-Colonel J.H. Smith of the British Supply Board in Canada because a request had been made for tyre chains etc. to be shipped without rust protection which demonstrated lack of ignorance of Canadian practice. Butler had given the D.N.D. to understand that the vehicles purchased for the “British account” as they were officially called, were to be of the same specifications as those for the C.A.S.F. , and thus in theory to W.D. specifications. Experience had shown that metal corroded rapidly without the application of the Degas coating which was applied on C.A.S.F. vehicles. There were slight differences between what were supposed to be identical vehicles, e.g. gas tank filler necks, but it would be advantageous to share information for mutual benefit: could any changes in specification please be routed through his office in future?

So who knows if there were any other differences in these early days?

cletrac (RIP) · #40 22-08-07, 05:38

Today I took the rear end carrier assembly out of my Maple Leaf 2 ton parts truck to compare it to the C15 and F15A rear ends. It's the same as the C15 (same ratio too) but the Chev rear ends in the F15A are about two or three inches more in diameter. They must come from the civvy three tons. It makes me wonder which civvy models they sourced the C60 units from.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #41 22-08-07, 06:25

The McKinnonn Industries Ltd of St Catherines were aksed by the DND to produce 4-wheel drive equipment, and I have always believed that they had some form of licence from the US counterparts, namely Chevrolet Axle plant in Flint I think it was, and also Timken-Detroit. If we are talking three-ton, then basically whatever GMC heavies used in the States is my suggestion. I think that then means Timken....but with the local adaptation etc.

cletrac (RIP) · #42 23-08-07, 05:48

Here's some factory pix of the 2A1 body.

cletrac (RIP) · #43 23-08-07, 06:01

Just about there.

Last one. The only problem is they're Fords but they'll have to do. That's a 1940 Ontario license plate.
This isn't the 2A1. It's likely the 2B1.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #44 23-08-07, 09:58

..Canadian Top & Body Company Limited, [of Brantford, Ontario] I think.

cletrac (RIP) · #45 25-08-07, 05:13

Looking at these pictures I noticed that the last two aren't the 2A1 body. It looks like they're the 2B1 and they're on an 11 cab.

cletrac (RIP) · #46 27-08-07, 04:40

I noticed this catch on the 2A1 box that holds the fold down side in the raised position. It looks like it just uses gravity to hold it in the latched position. In Mike Kellys Morris drawings he doesn't show anything like it on the British boxes but they had to have something.
I did the yellow highlighting with a program called Black Magic. You can colourize a black and white photo fairly easily with the program.

cletrac (RIP) · #47 29-08-07, 04:26

I started drawing the 2A1 in my AutoSketch program so decided to post this one to see how it works. I converted it to a jpg image to post it. When I make any changes I'll edit the post and update it.

cliff · #48 29-08-07, 07:26

that is a nice drawing. What program did you use? Is it called AutoSketch or something else as I am looking for a simple drawing program myself.

When I had Applemac I used a simple program called Claris Draw and it was easy enough to learn in an afternoon whereas Auto Cad is too complicated for what I want now.

cletrac (RIP) · #49 29-08-07, 09:11

Cliff, it's called Auto Sketch and it's a real simple program to use. My version is 2.1 and it's from 1995. I'm sure they've made some improvements by now. It's a 2D CAD program from Auto Desk. Auto Sketch

cliff · #50 29-08-07, 11:34

Thanks David. I want it to draw scale model plans so I will see if I can get it locally.

cletrac (RIP) · #51 29-08-07, 16:08

Cliff, the buy it now price on Ebay is $29.95 for the latest version. I just bid on one under Hayseeddave username.

Mike Kelly · #52 30-08-07, 06:27

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
I noticed this catch on the 2A1 box that holds the fold down side in the raised position. It looks like it just uses gravity to hold it in the latched position. In Mike Kellys Morris drawings he doesn't show anything like it on the British boxes but they had to have something.
I did the yellow highlighting with a program called Black Magic. You can colourize a black and white photo fairly easily with the program.

David ,

The yellow hold down device you highlighted is the same as used on the Morris CS8 GS body , looks like the early Canadian body is really a copy of the British version, in many respects . It just sits there by gravity as you said .

Mike

Mike Kelly · #53 30-08-07, 06:32

I scanned these parts ages ago

Mike Kelly · #54 30-08-07, 06:42

pics 16 and 17

Mike Kelly · #55 30-08-07, 06:50

Plate from a late production Morris CS8 cab , with the doors etc.

Nearly all of the CS8's I have seen here , are from this contract .

cletrac (RIP) · #56 30-08-07, 17:11

Mike, thanks for the drawings. I compared the 2A1 pix with your drawings on the Morris site and thay're almost the same. The 2A1 is longer in the wheel wells and the Canucks used 1" boards on the sides and endgate and 1 1/2" on the floor. That's the only differences I've noticed so far. Your Morris drawings will work for the front and the endgate. The sides are the same except for the overall length.so feel free to post more of those drawings.
I'm not quite sure of the construction of the wheel wells. What thickness lumber would they have used there and were they completely framed with angle iron?
Two more questions. What size lumber were the cross sills made of and did they use any lengthwise sills under them?
The 2A1 uses a long shaft for the tailgate hinge.

Mike Kelly · #57 31-08-07, 10:50

The wheel wells don't have angle iron , they used wooden supports inside the corners , its all held together with wood screws .

I did take some pics of the wells on a original GS body > but I cannot find the disc ....

This may help , but I cannot say if this is 100% correct .