ethanol......is it bad?

elvis3006 · #1 29-12-10, 22:23

is it safe to run ethanol based fuels in our MV's? i have a 43 GPW and a 44 WC51. thanks

chris vickery · #2 30-12-10, 00:23

Ethanol is corrosive in contact with rubber components like fuel lines, gaskets seals etc. Most modern vehs overcome this as they are manufactured using synthentics in the fuel lines which are resistant to modern fuel and fuel additives.

Personally I would not sweat it much but would avoid using fuel from the farm stores etc or ones advertsied as ethanol. The percentage of ethanol in most unleaded gasoline is less than 10%. Considering that you have mostly steel lines on mvs, the small bit of rubber is hardly woth the worry. If it bothers you, go to the auto supply store and get some neoprene fuel line and put your worries to rest...

elvis3006 · #3 30-12-10, 00:29

thanks Chris.....i guess the alternative is to run premium through it. do you use ethanol based gas?

Phil Waterman · #4 30-12-10, 00:46

With in weeks of its introduction in the States (in particular our MV club area) we started having reports of fuel leaks, gas lines, and fuel pump diaphragms leaks and complete failures. Then later we started getting reports of plugged fuel filters and trash in carbs. Then came tank leaks on fuel tanks that had been sealed with the old yellow tank sealant. Dissolving the sealant also caused problems with plugged fuel filters. They introduced it over the winter and so when spring came the first parade everybody tanked up and the fun began.

So if they are introducing E10 in your area replace all the rubber fuel lines, do not use NOS parts, be sure that the replacement rubber parts actually rated for Ethanol. Do not buy cheap "rubber" fuel lines at the local auto parts, buy Gates or some other top line company.

I can post pictures of what this stuff does to MV fuel system parts I can post some.

They are now talking about let or making the gas companies in the US make E15 which will be even worse. US environmental agency doesn't even take into consideration vehicles made prior to 1990 even those they call legacy vehicles.

E10 goes bad in the carb within a few weeks, will last longer in the tank many MV drivers around here have gone to using marine grade fuel stabilizer.

Strangely the best way to avoid hard starting with CMPs is to drive them more and or replace the manual fuel pump with a electric pump. The electric pumps really help starting as they pump a small amount of fresh gas into the carb before you even try to start it.

Cheers and have fun Phil

elvis3006 · #5 30-12-10, 00:54

is there an alternative fuel here in Canada that can be found at any gas station? or are we in our hobby forced to replace/modify fuel systems to accomodate this stuff?

chris vickery · #6 30-12-10, 03:20

Just use regular unleaded fuel and you will be fine. All mvers that I know do that without a problem, I do too.

I only stated to stay away from the UPI farm stations and others that promote ethanol in the fuel. Typically there is more added in winter »(gas line antifreeze)

Do not use premium in your vintage vehicle as they were not intended to run on high octane levels. Of course the experts will chime in here, there is an exception to every rule, that being situations where an engine has been rebuilt to modern standards or suped up etc.
As far as changinging things to accomodate modern fuel in the system, neoprene fuel line from the auto parts store, modern fuel pump rebuild kits etc are a minimal investment and not really a big deal, if, and should you feel the need to go that way.

What mv do you have?

elvis3006 · #7 30-12-10, 05:03

hi Chris i have a 43 GPW and a 44 WC51 3/4 ton truck. Rob

Robin Craig · #8 30-12-10, 05:51

Speaking from harsh experience, ethanol will cause "issues" long term.

There is a marine targeted fuel stabiliser the name of which escapes me but then its been a long day, may be Stabil brand, that specifically targets ethanol fuel stabilisation. USE IT.

My 2 cents worth

Robin

Ron Pier · #9 30-12-10, 09:03

Yes Robin I have heard of this brand STA-BIL. It is being imported here to the UK. Unfortunately there is a 6 week delay. Does anyone know another brand in UK? At the moment our fuel has only a 5% Ethanol content, but soon to be 10% then 15%. And zen ven all your vehicles are kaput! Vee vill attack.

Ron

Howard · #10 31-12-10, 08:03

Here in Aus our regular unleaded petrol is incorrectly labeled. It should be called "Sh*t that will burn". I should also point out that it will only burn if used within a few weeks of purchase.
My old F15 gets driven maybe 3 times a year, so for that reason I use a fuel stabiliser. It is made by Lucas in the US so should be readily available in North America. It is as dear as poison but has stopped the fuel from going off (and stinking), and stops the carburetor seals from drying out too. I have also noticed that the fuel drain-back is reduced, too. In my previous job I sold it to people who were putting boats into storage over winter, etc. I recommend it.

sapper740 · #11 31-12-10, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvis3006

is it safe to run ethanol based fuels in our MV's? i have a 43 GPW and a 44 WC51. thanks

A good friend of mine who owns and operates a Mohawk gas station in B.C. had to retro-fit large filters to all his pumps years ago when Mohawk started blending ethanol with their gasoline. The reason as explained to me was that the Ethanol will remove any scale from the underground storage tanks and lines. Of course, it was critically important to filter the fuel before selling it. It's important to ensure that your vehicles have good fuel filters to prevent any scale in your fuel system being loosened by the ethanol from clogging the jets in your carbs. Another alternative is to run 100LL (Avgas) which not only doesn't attack rubber seals and fuel lines, but helps prevent vapour lock much better than Autogas. Further, your valves will love you for it. It can be purchased at any General Aviation airport, just tell the seller that it's for your boat. We used to buy it all the time for the high compression Rats in our Flat-bottoms and Pickle-forks. You can be fined here in the U.S. for running it in your daily commuter, but you are allowed to use it in "Specialty Vehicles" such as race cars etc. I'm not sure about the laws elsewhere. If your conscience will let you burn gas that doesn't have Road Taxes included in the price, go for it.

Regards, Derek.

Ron Pier · #12 31-12-10, 09:58

Cor blimey! you Muricans. Blokes are still festering in the dungeons in the Tower of London for putting red diesel in their trucks to save a few bob! Ron

sapper740 · #13 31-12-10, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

Cor blimey! you Muricans. Blokes are still festering in the dungeons in the Tower of London for putting red diesel in their trucks to save a few bob! Ron

Well, you know, I am a member of the T.E.A. Party here in the U.S. ;>)

Of course, I'm not suggesting that anyone burn 100LL in their daily commuter, asides from ruining your catalytic converter and dumping more lead into the environment, you can face fines up to $10,000.00 which would quickly eat up any savings...even at European fuel prices!
I did fill up my 1942 GPW once with Avgas when I ran out at an event at the Delta Air Park in B.C. She purred like a kitten all the way home that day.

Derek.

charlie fitton · #14 31-12-10, 13:50

I think avgas is considerably more expensive her in Ontario...

Alex Blair (RIP) · #15 31-12-10, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapper740

Well, you know, I am a member of the T.E.A. Party here in the U.S. ;>)

Of course, I'm not suggesting that anyone burn 100LL in their daily commuter, asides from ruining your catalytic converter and dumping more lead into the environment, you can face fines up to $10,000.00 which would quickly eat up any savings...even at European fuel prices!
I did fill up my 1942 GPW once with Avgas when I ran out at an event at the Delta Air Park in B.C. She purred like a kitten all the way home that day.

Derek.

Derek,,
Back in my old Flat head Ford stock car days we ran Av gas 130..which had a higher lead content than todays AV LL1oo..
The octane remains the same a minimum of 99..but the power was certainly there..
Aviation Gasoline 100LL, which is dyed blue for easy identification, the product replaces Aviation Gasoline 100/130. Except for the content of lead (tetraethyl lead), all specifications for both products are the same. AvGas 100/130 (which has been dyed green) can have up to 1.28 grams per liter. AvGas 100LL is limited to 0.56 grams per liter, "LL" meaning "low lead". (Although this level of lead is only half that of AvGas 100/130, it is still twice the lead content of leaded gasoline automobile allowed in the 1980s.) PetroValue AvGas 100LL meets the specifications of CAN / CGSB ASTM D910 3.25.

Was running at $1.30/liter up till July this year but haven't checked lately..Regular this morning in Ottawa is running $1.16/liter..
I would imagine AV gas is close to two bucks a liter here now..
Happy New Year

elvis3006 · #16 31-12-10, 15:29

to everyone thank you for this info,and experiences regarding ethanol. i also like to take this moment and wish all a Happy New Year!!

lynx42 · #17 01-01-11, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

Cor blimey! you Muricans. Blokes are still festering in the dungeons in the Tower of London for putting red diesel in their trucks to save a few bob! Ron

Happy New Year All!!

Ron, we hired a motor home in England last year and were pulled up twice to have the contents of the fuel tank checked for RED DIESEL. The first time I didn't know what they were talking about. So it seems that it is a common(?) practice in the UK to run on farmers fuel.

Regards Rick.

Richard Farrant · #18 01-01-11, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynx42

Happy New Year All!!

Ron, we hired a motor home in England last year and were pulled up twice to have the contents of the fuel tank checked for RED DIESEL. The first time I didn't know what they were talking about. So it seems that it is a common(?) practice in the UK to run on farmers fuel.

Regards Rick.

Hi Rick,

The Excise men must have thought you were suspicious........I've never been checked !

Happy New Year to you and Jill.

regards, Richard

Bob Carriere · #19 01-01-11, 03:06

Ssshhhttttt !!!!

It occurs in Canada once in a while to run the Ford diesel on red..... seems to like the brew..... at elast $10 cheaper per refill.....

A. NoKneemuss

Dave Page · #20 01-01-11, 05:31

Hi Guys,
This gasahol thing has caused a lot of confusion, I run standard low grade fuel with an octane booster ("Blendzall", a top end lubricant of castor oil) in my Indian and my Daimler, and they both run fine. I also add stabil to the mix over winter.
There are some very intelligent articles on-line and some very misleading ones, the latter will have you buying stainless valve seats and etc.
The truth is the older engines that we run are - low-compression - so do not generate the pressures and heat that would cause valve problems in a high-compression engine. It wasn't that many years before our ww2-engined vehicles that cars were running on an alcohol and castor oil mix.
During the war both unleaded and leaded fuels were used by the military, the lead being added in very high doses to boost the octane of lower grade fuels to eliminate engine knock, this saved a lot of money and time over actually making high quality fuel for everything to run on.
OK, so you need to understand that while lead does boost the octane level it does so at a cost, that being deterioration of the valve stems from the lead salts, and other issues. Let's not even go into the health issues.

By boosting the octane level of low grade fuel you are actually - slowing - the burn rate. Low octane fuel actually burns a lot faster and tend to produce
engine knock. To put this in layman's terms, low octane produces a fast explosion, whereas high octane produces a slower explosion, the latter being
much better for your engine. Think of the piston being hammered downward with low octane rather than progressively shoved downward as with high
octane. Not everyone has access to avgas so if you use the low octane and add a booster (unleaded) and tune your engine well, she will run fine

Also, methanol has been added to petrol tanks for years to absorb condensation, it readily mixed with the petrol, and while the engine may have
coughed a bit, that nasty rusty water was eventually removed from your tank. Having to clean or replace filters was cheaper than replacing the petrol tank.

Cheers,
Dave

Hanno Spoelstra · #21 01-01-11, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Page

There are some very intelligent articles on-line and some very misleading ones, the latter will have you buying stainless valve seats and etc.
The truth is the older engines that we run are - low-compression - so do not generate the pressures and heat that would cause valve problems in a high-compression engine. It wasn't that many years before our ww2-engined vehicles that cars were running on an alcohol and castor oil mix.
During the war both unleaded and leaded fuels were used by the military, the lead being added in very high doses to boost the octane of lower grade fuels to eliminate engine knock, this saved a lot of money and time over actually making high quality fuel for everything to run on.

I've been reading up on the subject in the past and a good source, among others, is a chapter on the subject in Dr. Ulrich von Pidoll's book "Kaefer: Ein Auto schreibt Geschichte" (Hamburg: Nikol, 1996, ISBN 3-930656-36-1).

Indeed, lead was not added to car petrol until after WW-2. Also, during the war, when the race for higher power output from aircraft engines was in full swing, it was found that by adding lead to petrol the octane rating could be raised (i.e. petrol became more resistant to spontaneous combustion). Thus higher compression ratios and supercharging became possible.

After WW-2, increased power output for car engines was also solved by raising the compression and the revolutions per minute. Adding lead again solved the pre-detonation problem (although up until the 1960s other additives were also used for this purpose). The advantage of lead additives is that after being burned, they act like a solid lubricant on the exhaust valves and seats, and thus reduce the amount of wear over a given period. (The process is comparable to the use of white metal in engine bearings.)

Now that leaded petrol is banned (for our own health), what can we do?

1) fit induction hardened valve seats and valves when rebuilding the engine. This is recommended by the Dutch Federation of Historic Car Clubs, as the cost of hardened seats and valves is only slightly higher than non-hardened ones, and is simply the most durable solution.

But what if we have an engine which is not yet due for a rebuild?

2) Dr. Von Pidoll quotes a 1986 SAE technical paper. A number of SAE tests (incl. one on Army vehicles) proved that the wear on valve seats and valves with unleaded petrol is not noticeably higher (compared with leaded petrol) if the engine is operated under 3,000 rpm.

My own opinion is that the latter is a good tip, as 1940s and 1950s MV engines are rarely operated above 3,000 rpm. over long periods.

HTH,
Hanno

Richard Farrant · #22 01-01-11, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Indeed, lead was not added to car petrol until after WW-2.

A number of SAE tests (incl. one on Army vehicles) proved that the wear on valve seats and valves with unleaded petrol is not noticeably higher (compared with leaded petrol) if the engine is operated under 3,000 rpm.

My own opinion is that the latter is a good tip, as 1940s and 1950s MV engines are rarely operated above 3,000 rpm. over long periods.

hi Hanno,

I must just comment on the first use of "lead" in car petrol. It was General Motors in the USA who came up with it in the early 1920's and produced the additive with an oil company. It was Tetra ethyl lead, or TEL. It was added to petrol in the UK in the early part of 1930's, I think from memory that you could buy petrol with or without. During WW2, in UK, TEL was added again for military use, in such large quantities, that it actually produced valve problems, and a number of modifications had to be done to engines of military vehicles during the last part of the war.

When leaded was phased out in the UK, a number of lead replacement additive were marketed here and laboratory tests were done at the motor industry research site, using BMC A series engines, the top performer being one called Superblend Zero 2000, which I have used ever since. The fact about engines running below 3000 rpm and not heavily loaded not suffering, was also made during the tests. As it is, I have not come across any noticeable rise in vehicles with valve problems, not like it was in years gone by, when decokes and burnt valves were a common occurance.

elvis3006 · #23 01-01-11, 17:19

ok so lead was bad,but it helped lubricate the engine. we no longer use lead,so what can we do or use to protect and lubricate engines when using ethanol fuel, besides a lead additive? a mixture of stabil and automatic transmission fluid?

Richard Farrant · #24 01-01-11, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvis3006

ok so lead was bad,but it helped lubricate the engine. we no longer use lead,so what can we do or use to protect and lubricate engines when using ethanol fuel, besides a lead additive? a mixture of stabil and automatic transmission fluid?

I would not use auto transmission fluid, the burning of it could cause plug fouling, even in small amounts, best to use a lead replacement additive. These additives not only contain a chemical that coats the valve seat, as lead did, but also have anti-corrosion, upper cylinder lubricant and other features.

Ron Pier · #25 01-01-11, 20:40

Richard Like you, I went for Superblend Zero 2000. Mainly because it was the one recommended for our low compression low rev MV's. By now most (but not all) of my vehicles have hardened seats fitted. But I have not been able to find it since my initial 5 litre purchase, which is now very low. I have found also that I can't buy STA-BIL at the moment in the UK. Any information by anyone on these products would be gratefully received. Ron

Richard Farrant · #26 01-01-11, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

Richard Like you, I went for Superblend Zero 2000. Mainly because it was the one recommended for our low compression low rev MV's. By now most (but not all) of my vehicles have hardened seats fitted. But I have not been able to find it since my initial 5 litre purchase, which is now very low. I have found also that I can't buy STA-BIL at the moment in the UK. Any information by anyone on these products would be gratefully received. Ron

Hello Ron,
I always bought Superblend in the dispenser bottles from Morris Lubricants. Had enough to cover me up until now. I see it is still on Morris stock list, see their website, but name changed slightly, not sure of the significance it that, might be worth talking to their Tech Dept. As for STA-BIL, not used it, but did find one made by Briggs & Stratton, supposed to keep petrol for up to 2 years.
I don't know if you suffer from stale petrol problems, but I have had vehicles standing for some months, then go to start them and they will not fire up, only way is to drain the carb and fill float bowl with fresh petrol, once they are hot, they will stop and start without problems, go back the next day and same again. But, I have noticed one thing, a lot of this depends on the type of carburettor fitted. My own Bedford and a friends Ford WOT6, both have the same type Solex military carb, no problems, leave it for a good few months and fire straight up.

Alan Nicholas · #27 01-01-11, 21:43

Gents, if replacing fuel lines or rubber parts needed to run ethanol blended fuels you have to ask for nitrile base rubber. Nitrile is chemical resistant rubber and is reasonably common. Beware though that if nitrile is burnt, one of the by products produced is hydrofluoric acid, which is one of the nastiest acids around. It banned or in very limited use in alot countries around the world because it is so nasty.

Regards
Alan Nicholas

Little Jo · #28 02-01-11, 00:27

Hi All

I asked a question from one of our elder club members regarding changes to fuel as we can only get unleaded fuel now which burns at 90 octane, our older vehicled like my 1942 MB Jeep burns around 72 octane, I asked what I could do and he replied, "Oh just throw a cup full of diesel fuel in the tank when you fill up and she will be sweet." That may be an answer.

Little Jo

elvis3006 · #29 02-01-11, 00:46

i run my MV's regularly,should i still add STA-BIL despite the fact they are not sitting idle for long periods of time? i wonder if a cup of diesel in the tank would work ?

Hanno Spoelstra · #30 02-01-11, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

I must just comment on the first use of "lead" in car petrol. It was General Motors in the USA who came up with it in the early 1920's and produced the additive with an oil company. It was Tetra ethyl lead, or TEL. It was added to petrol in the UK in the early part of 1930's, I think from memory that you could buy petrol with or without. During WW2, in UK, TEL was added again for military use, in such large quantities, that it actually produced valve problems, and a number of modifications had to be done to engines of military vehicles during the last part of the war.

Hi Richard,

My remark was not about the first use of a chemical compound containing lead, rather when its use became commonplace. After WW-2, increased power demand for car engines was (also) solved by raising the compression and the revolutions per minute. This was an ongoing "race" where engine and petrol engineering go hand in hand. After raising compression and revolutions came the exhaust turbo in the 80s and today the race is on to extract even more power from smaller engines because we strive to lower CO2 and other emissions. State of the art: a 1.4 litre engine delivering 170 hp thanks to a compressor plus a turbo.

Regards,
Hanno