Sherman IC T-269916

[Maurice Donckers]

I am almost ready with the restauration of my Sherman IC with T number 269916. All markings came out from the side, but i only found on the rear left hand. Side the number 51.
Is there anybody who would know the divisional markings for this tank? And did it have a name on the rear of the turret

[Tim Bell]

Maurice

Hopefully someone has seen the number already.

If no answer on here, then on facebook I recommend you ask on the "Elgin Regt" group. The researchers there have tracked a lot of T numbers and maybe someone has found it already.

Considering where your vehicle ended up, like mine, it is very likely it was moved by the Elgins 25th Canadian Armoured Delivery Regt, and if so, issue to "51" would likely be the Governor General Foot Guards (though of course there were other regts deliveries were made to).

I was lucky - these (and other) pages exist for mine:



I havent looked for your T number (yet) - sorry.

Good Luck

Tim

[Jakko Westerbeke]

A white 51 on a red rectangle (it’s not quite square: 8.5 inches or 21.5 cm wide and 9.5 inches or 24 cm high) on the right front and right rear is the arm-of-service (AoS) marking, and indicates the senior regiment in the brigade, without saying which regiment that actually is. You would need to know the regiment you’re dealing with to be able to look up the division emblem to go with it — or alternatively, if you have the division emblem then you can look up the regiment from the number. Both depend on time and place, though.

A name is probably unlikely on the rear of the turret, those generally appeared on the hull sides.

Also: please don’t use a modern typeface like Helvetica, or even worse, Arial, for vehicle markings

[Tim Bell]

With respect a name on the rear of the turret - mine didnt, instead this shipping number exists. Unsure exactly what the number means, but think likely it relates to the convoy the vehicle crossed the channel on since there are other images about which show Sherman and other tanks with very similar numbers. If anyone knows what these numbers are, would love to know please.

My Firefly




Tanks awaiting shipping at Dover in 1944




Comet at Gravelines France 1944/45




Firefly Apeldoorn 1945




And another in Utrecht 1945... NOTE - THIS IS 269921, only 2 away from yours!




Probable yours will have had a similar number on the rear.

Tim

[tankbarrell]

The Elgin Regt were the Armoured Delivery Regiment for all of 21st AG, as far as I know so being listed with them at some point doesn't mean it served with a Canadian unit.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Maurice,

Maybe the thread WW2 database of tank, carrier and vehicle names used by various regiments contains some useful info.

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

The Elgin Regt were the Armoured Delivery Regiment for all of 21st AG, as far as I know so being listed with them at some point doesn't mean it served with a Canadian unit.

True... Firefly in Nijmegen in 1944, 51 would likely indicate Grenadier Guards



No name at rear of turret - also lacking the shipping code seen on later vehicles.

I think a case of looking through the Elgin diaries to see if your number comes up and then hoping it shows which unit they issued it to or receipted from.

[Maurice Donckers]

Thanks all for the replys , under the 51 was also a bit of white paint, so maybe it had a white stripe underneath . Shipping msu triangle was also on it with code ord3 ll 606
4-g-4730
And of course link I ofI

[Colin Alford]

Maurice,

I looked through the approx 1000 images that cover the turn-in of armoured vehicles from Canadian units at the end of the war.

I did find 269916, 269917, 269920, and 269921 as vehicles turned in by various units but I did not notice 269919. While your vehicle certainly fits into the right WD number block, it might not have been issued to a Canadian Unit (or could have been with a Canadian unit for a period of time, then spent time in Workshops prior to reissue to a different unit).

The records related to the turn-in start here: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t12742/431

Here are the links for the turn-in of 269920, and 269921:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t12742/620
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...el_t12742/1055

There are other groups of records within the various 25 CADR War Diaries (Squadron and Regimental) where your vehicle might appear.

Colin

[Maurice Donckers]

big mistake !!!!! the T number is 269916 sorry sorry
.
I was writing it from memory , and went now outside to check it and i wrote down the wrong number in this forum this morning ,can i still change the tread?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

big mistake !!!!! the T number is 269916 sorry sorry
.
I was writing it from memory , and went now outside to check it and i wrote down the wrong number in this forum this morning ,can i still change the tread?

Hi Maurice, I have edited your first post and the header of the thread.

PS: any member can edit their own posts: click the edit button, change the text and then click save

[Colin Alford]

Maurice,

Please see the attached images.

The front of the form is blurry but it appears to me that 269916 was turned in by 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards)

If this is correct then I presume your vehicle must have passed through more than one unit as the tactical marking for 22CAR was 52.

Link to record: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...el_t12742/1101

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Wow Colin, that’s a great find!

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

big mistake !!!!! the T number is 269916 sorry sorry
.
I was writing it from memory , and went now outside to check it and i wrote down the wrong number in this forum this morning ,can i still change the tread?

I will look again!

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Maurice,

Please see the attached images.

The front of the form is blurry but it appears to me that 269916 was turned in by 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards)

If this is correct then I presume your vehicle must have passed through more than one unit as the tactical marking for 22CAR was 52.

Link to record: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...el_t12742/1101

Nice find... and therefore it will exist elsewhere in the records.

[Tim Bell]

Condition Classes were I to IV, where I was best condition.

[Maurice Donckers]

but Tim, it wasn't in class 1 condition when I found it. It will be on its first outing in 2 weeks , for the liberation of the south over here 80 years ago , a few small interior bits are still missing , but it is 98 % complete again.

[Maurice Donckers]

And Jakko , there are several period pictures where the fireflies have a name on the rear of the turret .
I have a picture here from in geleen , and the whole parked column has a name on the back

[Tim Bell]

269916 - Appears to have been received by F squadron 25 CADR on 27th March 45 from 164 Vehicle Park.

Not sure who/what 164 vehicle park were (hope someone else knows), however this may support the belief the vehicle was transferred from another unit. Presumably the vehicle was issued to 22 CAR shortly after this



Tim

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

but Tim, it wasn't in class 1 condition when I found it. It will be on its first outing in 2 weeks , for the liberation of the south over here 80 years ago , a few small interior bits are still missing , but it is 98 % complete again.

Look forward to seeing it.

Tim

[Tim Bell]

269916 - Transferred from F squadron to E squadron on 13th April 45




Confirmed receipt by E from F... the records read UP from the line identifying the vehicle type (unless there are "" marks under the record - in which case they read down).




From E to D on 24th April 45:

[Colin Alford]

D Sqn 25 CADR supported 4 Cdn Armd Div.

Here are the pages of the D Sqn War Diary for the last week of April ‘45.
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...el_t12748/1460

Using this information combined with the Daily Balance sheets found by Tim, it would appear that D Sqn received 269916 in the early evening of 23 Apr, and the earliest they possibly delivered it to 22 CAR was 28 Apr (the delivery shows a quantity but not the WD number).

[Perry Kitson]

Maurice,
You mention a white stripe under the red rectangle with "51" in it. The white stripe indicates an independent armoured brigade, 51 being the senior regiment in that brigade.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

but Tim, it wasn't in class 1 condition when I found it. It will be on its first outing in 2 weeks , for the liberation of the south over here 80 years ago , a few small interior bits are still missing , but it is 98 % complete again.

Looking forward to see it running, Maurice. No doubt it will be a stunning restoration.

[Maurice Donckers]

yes Hanno, was a long restoration , the interior from a standard Sherman is 10 times easyer,next project humber box .
Some interesting reading on here , Shipping data mentions jan.44 and another data is march 44 , Arrival for conversion?
The was a lot of stenciling on the sides , but difficult to decipher, About battery`s , Fuel drained , etc, also wireless set installed (american code for 19 set )most overpainted again with the same paint color, even the firefly conversions, a bit of red oxide , and then us dark olive drab.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I can’t work out from what you’re saying if you overpainted everything, or if that had been done before you got the tank. However, if you’re the one who overpainted things with:—

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

us dark olive drab.

then I must point out that Dark Olive Drab No. 41 is a USAAF colour, because they found that the standard OD No. 9 (or No. 22 — same colour, different number) was too light for use on aircraft.

[Maurice Donckers]

Jakko, under the postwar paint which easily flaked off , the where the things I discovered , it was the same with the tank from Tim , just his got graffiti on it afterwards.
Don,t start about color, I have none of my vehicles in the same shade , I Examine a non touched part , and gets analyzed by my paint supplier(easy these days), I have a also a lot of new old stock parts , and even these go from very light olive drab to dark olive drab , Jeeps are lighter than what GMC used, also the Canadian brown comes in different shades .

[maple_leaf_eh]

As a Canadian and former member of the Sherbrooke Hussars, which perpetuates the 27th Canadian Armoured, I am impressed by your determination to restore this tank and to be honest to its origins.

[Maurice Donckers]

thank you Terry
, I started with an empty Hull even all the idler wheels where gone, I knew that the turret went to france in the beginning of the 80ies , so when that came up for sale i went back to the hull, to put everything back together . but most time consuming where all the little bins and brackets for the interior , Engine is build up with surplus NOS bits, so is the drive train

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

I Examine a non touched part , and gets analyzed by my paint supplier(easy these days)

Sounds like you’re doing it right, then (Unlike someone I know who paints his vehicles in whatever shade of military green he likes.) It’s just that the way you said it made me think you used the USAAF colour on a ground vehicle, which is something a lot of modellers do because they’re confused about olive drab, and model paint manufacturers are too.