MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23-02-05, 17:04
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Re: Sherman Ic

Does anyone have any evidence of welded hull Sherman Ic's serving in Cdn service in Northwest Europe? I'm not referring to the Hybrid Ic, as photos of those abound. I'm having difficulty putting my hands on a definitive photo of a welded hull Ic though. If you can point me towards a photo in a book, I might well have on my shelf but have forgotten about, I would be most appreciative.

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-03-05, 22:20
HaroldLukas HaroldLukas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11
Default yes

Steve Guthrie mentions Sherman Ic's in "The Sherman in Canadian service". On page 5 there is a picture (taken from the rear) of a Sherman Ic with the Fort Garry Horse. Picture was taken on April 25 1945 near Dingstede

Hope this helps
Harold
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-03-05, 02:32
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Sherman Ic

The problem with this photo in Steve's book is that as it's taken from the rear and the hull sides are obscured by sapling trees, it's impossible to tell whether this is a welded hull Ic or a Hybrid Ic. As it was taken on 25Apr45, I'm betting that it's a Hybrid Ic.

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-03-05, 17:59
servicepub (RIP)'s Avatar
servicepub (RIP) servicepub (RIP) is offline
RIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,734
Default

Chris,

I'll check at archives to see if there were multiple photos taken. This is often the case and I would choose one that meets the needs of the book and ignore another that may show exactly the detail you seek.

Clive
__________________
Those who live by the sword will be shot by those of us who have progressed.
- M38A1, 67-07800, ex LETE
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-03-05, 01:15
Larry Hayward Larry Hayward is offline
MVT Member 11001
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Middlesex
Posts: 401
Default Sherman Firefly

Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.

Apart from its own tracks it has Churchill tracks for side protection and another unidentified type to protect the driver.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Larry Hayward
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-03-05, 02:25
HaroldLukas HaroldLukas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11
Default here is one

Here is a picture of a Ic Firefly or so the caption said.
I forgot were I got this picture from. So I do apologize for not giving credit to the person who put it on the internet.

With the picture being taken in Zeeland I think its most likely a canadian tank
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-03-05, 10:49
tankbarrell tankbarrell is offline
Adrian Barrell
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 854
Default

The unspecified tracks are also Churchill tracks, they are just the other way up and we are looking at the inside surface.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-03-05, 21:16
gcrossley's Avatar
gcrossley gcrossley is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Winnipeg MB
Posts: 41
Default FGH Sherman

Hi Harold,

That Sherman is from the Fort Garry Horse. In better quality copies you can clearly see the badges on the crew members.

The photo is from the National Archives of Canada, PA 166849 (old number 42128). It is the sister of photo PA 114460 (old number 42127) which shows other tanks of the unit at the same location.

The photos were taken by Ken Bell on 29 October 1944. In 2000, we were able to find the actual location just NW of Reimerswaal at the intersection of A58 and N289 on the attached map.

Gord
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-03-05, 12:36
HaroldLukas HaroldLukas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11
Default Hi Gord

Hi Gord,
Another Fort Garry Horse tank!
On the center of the transmissioncover there seems to be a square. Does that make it a B-squadron tank?
Do you happen to know the census-number?

Kind regards
Harold
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15-03-05, 04:04
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Sherman Ic - Welded Hull

That's the photo I was looking for, and couldn't find! Ken Bell's name sent me looking through his books and the photo appears on page 201 of "The Way We Were". It's also mis-identified as a "tank destroyer Sherman". It's the one photo of a Firefly in Cdn service with a one piece tranny cover and this makes me think it's a Sherman Ic. Knowing that it's a FGH tank is icing on the cake.

Thanks fellows!

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18-03-05, 17:12
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,701
Default Re: Sherman Ic - Welded Hull

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson
It's the one photo of a Firefly in Cdn service with a one piece tranny cover and this makes me think it's a Sherman Ic.
Chris, that´s correct. Many if not most Sherman IC Fireflies were fitted with one piece transmission assemblies. Most have direct vision slots welded over with appliqué armour. The Sherman Is used to built Fireflies were among the last Shermans with 75-mm guns delivered to the British, most of which were early examples. These were rebuilt in the US after having been used for training extensively.

Attached goes another picture of a Sherman IC. Can anyone identify the unit it belongs to? I think it's Czech.

H.
Attached Thumbnails
cz27.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 18-03-05, 18:28
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
Senior Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 3,027
Post Re: Re: Sherman Ic - Welded Hull

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Attached goes another picture of a Sherman IC. Can anyone identify the unit it belongs to? I think it's Czech.
Hanno;

It looks like it belongs to the 1st Czech Independent Armoured Brigade (1st Czech Armd Regt - '51' serial on the AoS marking). The Formation sign of the Czech Armd Bde was a blue shield, with a red cross and white lion (see attached black & white image).

Cheers
Attached Images
 
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 18-03-05, 19:24
gcrossley's Avatar
gcrossley gcrossley is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Winnipeg MB
Posts: 41
Default The other Zeeland pic

Hi all,

Here is the other picture taken at the crossroads. Note the two transmission cover types.

The National Archives reference is PA 114460 (old number 42127).

Gord
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 18-03-05, 19:38
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Temple, New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 3,927
Default Forceful II Camp Bordon 1984

Not sure if this is Sherman Version you are looking for but by the plaque it served in North Europe into Germany I took the picture at Camp Borden about twenty years ago. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Friends.html
Attached Images
 
__________________
Phil Waterman
`41 C60L Pattern 12
`42 C60S Radio Pattern 13
`45 HUP
http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/
New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19-03-05, 00:06
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Fireflys

Gord,

Although it's only a guess, without being able to see the suspension spread, I'd say that the lead Firefly is a Vc based on the three piece transmission cover. The second one is the Ic as evidenced by the sharp nosed transmission cover.

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 19-03-05, 01:11
gcrossley's Avatar
gcrossley gcrossley is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Winnipeg MB
Posts: 41
Default Ic and Vc

Hi Chris,

I think the second tank is the same one that is in the photo posted earlier. Note the spare links and track tools on the glacis.

The old picture numbers are sequential as well.

Cheers,

Gord
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 19-03-05, 09:39
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,701
Default Re: Fireflys

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson
Although it's only a guess, without being able to see the suspension spread, I'd say that the lead Firefly is a Vc based on the three piece transmission cover. The second one is the Ic as evidenced by the sharp nosed transmission cover.
I'd say the same. Also, the lead Firefly does not have appliqué armour, which all Sherman IC Fireflies had.

H.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 19-03-05, 09:40
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,701
Default Re: Re: Re: Sherman Ic - Welded Hull

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
It looks like it belongs to the 1st Czech Independent Armoured Brigade (1st Czech Armd Regt - '51' serial on the AoS marking).
Thanks Mark, all I could remember was that it was Czech.

H.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 23-03-05, 03:34
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Sherman Ic Identifying Features

In looking at the FGH Sherman Ic image in this thread, would I be correct in thinking that the turret is a low bustle example? I see what I think is the loader's hatch stop mounted on the turret roof, which wouldn't appear on a high bustle turret fitted with the oval loader's hatch.

Can anyone take a guess as to whether the bogey trucks have raised return roller arms? I think they are from what I can see but ...

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 23-03-05, 11:07
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,701
Default Re: Sherman Ic Identifying Features

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In looking at the FGH Sherman Ic image in this thread, would I be correct in thinking that the turret is a low bustle example? I see what I think is the loader's hatch stop mounted on the turret roof, which wouldn't appear on a high bustle turret fitted with the oval loader's hatch.

Can anyone take a guess as to whether the bogey trucks have raised return roller arms? I think they are from what I can see but ...
Chris, the Sherman IC most likely had a low bustle turret, as it's quite an early Sherman (note the direct vision slots). Unless the return roller arms were badly damaged and had to be replaced upon remanufacturing by raised return roller arms, they would be of the straight type for the same reason.

H.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 23-03-05, 14:26
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Return Rollers

In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find, I tend to agree with you that the return roller brackets are level but when you look at that first bogey truck, it does make one wonder if it's a raised return roller. However, it could be just the angle of the camera too. At any rate, I've satisfied myself that I'm seeing a low bustle turret and I'll go with straight return roller arm brackets. I may even take a flyer on it having open spoked road wheels too.

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 26-03-05, 22:28
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,701
Default Re: Sherman Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.
This photo is from the National Archives of Canada It is no. PA-131043 and is captioned "Canadian tanks moving through Putten, [Holland, on way to Zuider Zee, 18 April 1945.]" Peter Brown noted it has been identified as 8th Princess Louise (New Brunswick) Hussars (5th Armoured Regiment).

H.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 29-03-05, 12:59
Crewman's Avatar
Crewman Crewman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 210
Default Re: Return Rollers

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find...
Chris,

If you are looking for various data on the subject of Polish Shermans IC I may recommend you three books published in Poland. The first of them is double-language Polish-English so you will have the same information as the Polish readers of this book. This is the monograph of the Polish 4th Armoured Regiment belonged to Polish 2nd Armoured Brigade of Polish 2nd Corps in Italy.

The book has two titles -- Polish and English one:

Zbigniew Lalak
Pułk 4. Pancerny "Skorpion"
Regiment 4th Armoured "Scorpion"
Pegaz-bis, Warszawa 2003
Pegaz-bis Publishing House, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-911863-3-4



Review of this book by Peter Brown
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.co...ks/pb/p4ps.htm

Online purchase of this book
http://militarymodeling.com/pages/on...story_cat=Book
http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/showsect...d=260&pageno=4
http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?...9bf9da8dea091f



Next two books are "Polskie Shermany Vol. I" ("Polish Shermans Vol. I") and "Polskie Shermany Vol. II" ("Polish Shermans Vol. II"). These books have English summaries as well as images descriptions.





Online purchase of these books
http://www.helion.co.uk/section.php?xSec=105180
http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/showsect...d=261&pageno=4


Best regards

C.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-04-05, 00:26
Crewman's Avatar
Crewman Crewman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 210
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find...
Well…, I researched it much longer, deeper, better. Certainly the Sherman ICs were used by the following Polish units:

1. Pułk Ułanów Krechowieckich
(1st Krechowiecki Ulans Regiment) -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

4. Pułk Pancerny "Skorpion"
(4th Armoured Regiment "The Scorpion") -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

6. Pułk Pancerny "Dzieci Lwowskich"
(6th Armoured Regiment "The Children of Lwow") -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

1. Pułk Pancerny
(1st Armoured Regiment) -- ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps

2. Pułk Pancerny
(2nd Armoured Regiment) -- ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps

24. Pułk Ułanów
(24th Ulans Regiment) ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps



Sources:

Zbigniew Lalak
Polish Armoured Forces. Organisation and Order of Battle
Pegaz-Bis & O.K. Media, Warsaw 2005
ISBN 83-911863-9-3

Wojciech J. Gawrych, Wojciech Łuczak
Polskie Shermany (Polish Shermans), Vol. I
Wydawnictwo Militaria, Warsaw 2000
ISBN 83-7219-097-6

Janusz Ledwoch
Polskie Shermany (Polish Shermans), Vol. II
Wydawnictwo Militaria, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-7219-173-5

Zbigniew Lalak
Pułk 4. Pancerny "Skorpion" (4th Armoured Regiment "The Scorpion")
Pegaz-bis, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-911863-3-4
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-04-05, 10:09
DaveCox's Avatar
DaveCox DaveCox is offline
Commonwealth NOT Europe
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sussex, England
Posts: 394
Default

As soon as you mention Sherman 1c most modellers think of the hybrid hull so I've been following this thread with interest - and come up with this:
Attached Thumbnails
fgh2.jpg  
__________________
Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion

A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-04-05, 17:35
Chris Johnson's Avatar
Chris Johnson Chris Johnson is offline
Cdn Armd Corps In WWII
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 61
Default Driver's Hatch Spring

Your model of an Ic looks very good Dave.

In looking at the driver's hatch in the image Gord posted above, I see a periscope guard mounted on it. When combined with other features on the tank, I'm of the opinion that this is probably a rebuilt tank.

As the hatch is in the open position and not laying flat, it also indicates to me that it has an external spring. Would that spring lay flat against the hatch in the open position, or would it be at an angle to it?

Cheers,

Chris
__________________
Chris Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-04-05, 19:32
DaveCox's Avatar
DaveCox DaveCox is offline
Commonwealth NOT Europe
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sussex, England
Posts: 394
Default

Chris, in a way all 17pdr equipped tanks were rebuilds in that standard tanks were shipped over from the US and then had the 17pdr fitted over in the UK.
The drivers hatches perhaps should have had periscope guards fitted on my model, but I don't have any left in my spares box at the moment and they're too fiddly to scratchbuild!
The springs, if fitted, would lie flat when closed and stand at an angle when the hatch is open.
__________________
Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion

A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 20-04-05, 12:50
Crewman's Avatar
Crewman Crewman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 210
Default Re: Sherman Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.

Apart from its own tracks it has Churchill tracks for side protection and another unidentified type to protect the driver.

Hi Larry,

The tank at your pic has very interesting barrel. Is it the same tank as can be seen at this modeller link?

Any comments about this interesting barrel? Theoretically I know that the Fireflies barrels were camouflaged in this manner none the less the pics of the tanks with these barrels are rather rare.

Best regards

C.

Last edited by Crewman; 20-04-05 at 13:09.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016