Lynx II, hull # 4225

[Peter Duggan]

I have just brought home a Lynx II with a build date of November 44. The Lynx will be a long term restoration project and I will be seeking lots of advice and potential sources of parts from fellow MLU members.

The machine was cut in half when it was "demilitarized" and is missing both fuel tanks and the armoured sponsons that contain them. Well weathered and rusty, but other than that it is relatively intact.

I wish to thank all the members of MLU who encouraged my dream to find a CMP project and Giorgio for making it happen.

Peter Duggan, Cherry Valley, ON

[super dave]

Will be looking forward to your rebuild

[lynx42]

Peter, Congratulations on your Lynx and welcome to the Lynx Owners Club.

There are not too many of us out there. In fact I would like to know just how many belong to MLU members ( or others as well.)

You have listed the hull number as 4225. There has been a bit of discussion lately as to the actual number built and the answer seems to be 3255.

So I am interested in coming to the correct number made and how your hull is 970 above the suggested number.

My Lynx is a Canadian Scout Car Lynx I MkIII* Hull number 1726 built April 1943. It was the last registered of the 170 which came to Australia during WWII. ARN 123980.We have just about finished the restoration and I am about to put up a thread on the restoration.

Regards Rick

[Doug Lavoie]

Pete,
Great to see you have the Lynx safely tucked away. You are among a great group of people. Hope the project brings you many hours of fun and enjoyment.
Doug

[rob love]

A very nice piece. I am envious. Congrats.

[Rob Fast]

All I can say is beautiful. Cheers Rob Fast

[David Dunlop]

Nice find, Peter.

Was the frame cut as well, or just the hull and how wide of a slice did they take out of it?


David

[Peter Duggan]

Dave,

The frame was cut as well as the hull. Doesn't appear to be much missing material. I've started to remove and tag all the exterior items. Surprisingly a fair number of the bolts yield without too much effort. Once the frame is stripped, I'll be able to decide to repair or perhaps replace. Long ways to go yet.

Peter

[rob love]

I did a fair bit of work on the Lynx in the Shilo collection. For the most part, the Lynx is not that different from working on a truck of that vintage. It is one of my favorite vehicles to drive out of the collection, and that says a lot. Hopefully a Lynx is in my future, but then again I have so many projects underway now I don't know in which decade I would fit it in.

Unless you happen to find a frame somewhere, I would suggest removing the hull and fishplating/welding the frame. I think the hull will add a lot of structural integrity to the frame, even if it wasn't 100% up to scratch.

[Michael R.]

Regards the hull number 4225, and the published images showing what some suggest is the highest production number of 3255: does anyone know if the number 3255 shown in the Milestone image is a production number, not related to a hull or serial number?

Where did the serial numbers start, i.e.: 1000? Are there any existing original, unaltered data plates that display a hull number, serial number and engine number with a month and year of production? Could a hull have a number 4225, but was actually produced as the 3225th vehicle off the line?

I ask, as about the same time the last of the Ford Canada built MK-II* Universal Carriers were in production. Although the Milestone image of the last Universal Carrier is displayed as being in the 28,9XX range, there are multiple examples of original data plates of Ford Canada MK-II* Universal Carriers for a British contract with serial numbers well above the Milestone 28,9XX 'last U.C.' produced number.

Do not confuse Ford Canada Universal Carrier production with Ford Canada Windsor Carriers, the latter being produced through April, 1945.

IIRC, years earlier an MLU contributor wrote that T-16 U.C.'s started their serial numbers at 1,000. Was that Rod S. in AZ? Could the same practice have existed for the Lynx? We know it did not for the Ford Canada Universal Carriers MK-I*.

[lynx42]

Micheal R. here is the parts book which confirms that the numbers started at Number 0001.


The earliest Lynx I. that Australia received seems to be Hull No.240 with (Army Registration Number) ARN 123833. The first 15 are listed with just the engine number.(The first ARN. No123810 to ARN No.123824) and the latest Hull No.2025. ARN.123970. The hull numbers are all over the place. Just as they drove in the gate off the ship I think.

The last one listed in the ARN. books is Hull No. 1726 Serial No. 1726 and ARN.123980. That one is mine. There are another 30 spaces unfilled as if they were waiting for a further shipment. Maybe Mike C. can answer that one.

The identification Plate gives the Model. - Serial ID No.- Hull No.- Engine No. and build date with the month and year.



Above are 3 of my Lynx plates. The Identification Plate, The gear Change and info plate and the WARNING plate. The Warning plate is fixed on the drivers hatch immediately next to his right eye.

Peters Lynx may not have this plate as it has the later diffs with the 8 stud wheels and no armoured roof. the earlier 6 stud axles were a problem as they were too weak.

The 4th one, not pictured, is the Publication plate afixed to the book holder near to the drivers right knee.

The Hulls were built by International Harvester and fitted to Ford chassis. There will be an IHC stamp on the flat horizontal piece immediately in front of the armoured vertical windscreen on the right hand side, right near the outer edge. The Serial Number, Ford Stamp and build date is right near the edge on the LEFT side of the horizontal plate.


Hope that this helps although it does not explain how Peter has a Lynx with the Hull No 4225 if there were only 3255 built.

Regards Rick.

[Lynn Eades]

The cover of the parts book identifies a MkIII and a MkIII* What is the difference? Were the MkIII's built in the U.K.?..... or for the Brits?
Were there only 3255 MkI's built, but did MkIIIs run into higher numbers?
I know nothing about them, but with carriers and firearms the "*" denotes Canadian built, so what does a a MkIII with no * denote?

[Michael R.]

Thank-you Rick. As I know SFA about the Lynx, I wonder if there are any indications of serial number ranges in the parts book showing a part used to a certain serial number..... perhaps showing numbers greater than 3255?

By way of example, the FUC-03 parts book for Universal Carriers has an indication where a part is used for a MK-I* U.C. to serial number 240XX, suggesting the MK-I* had a production range that may have reached that serial number range. I have no exposure to the Lynx, so please bear with my musings.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Peter,

Nice find, good luck with the restoration

PS: for those who would wonder where it came from, see the CMPs for sale in Italy thread

Hanno

[Peter Duggan]

Guys,

Great discussion. Here is a picture of the hull number which was on the LF corner of the horizontal plate, in front of the observers position

.

[lynx42]

Peter, Here are my numbers before the restoration started.


Lynn, No Lynx's were built in the UK only Daimler Dingos of which the Lynx is the Canadian version.

Michael R. I do not have the later books. There are a few anomalies in my books and some numbers between 0 to roughly 400 are mentioned as changes.

The some of the differences between the Lynx I and Lynx II are the axles and wheels, the different open section to the top, no roof, placement of the air cleaner into the crew compartment, shielded ignition system, placement of the sand channels to the rear, and who knows what else.

If you look at my parts book, you will see that it is for a Lynx I. Mk.III and Mk.III* not a Lynx II.

Confused? I am.

Regards Rick.

[Lynn Eades]

Rick, I have edited my post deleting ref. to a MkII.
So What is the difference between a MkIII and a MkIII*

[David Dunlop]

The model numbers and marks for the Ford Lynx can be a bit confusing if one tries to cross reference them to other production scenarios. It is best to look at the history of the Lynx Scout Car on its own.

This design came to Canada during the war as the Daimler Dingo, a British design, which it was hoped could be manufactured in Canada. To make it work on Canadian production lines, it morphed into something similar, but very different to the original Dingo. This was the Lynx I and it went through two 'Marks' to reach a vehicle which could go into production. So basically, the first batch of these scout cars to roll off the Ford lines was the Lynx I Mark III and it had some serious problems, the most significant of which were bad axles and a very heavy, difficult to use, folding armoured cover for the crew compartment. At about the 200th vehicle mark in production, Ford actually stopped production, to introduce improved axles and a lighter weight folding armoured hatch. Ford also took advantage of this break to introduce a number of smaller changes to the Lynx like improved rad cooling/protection, better engine cover hinges and latches, etc. etc. These changes were important to the vehicle (but did not solve all the serious problems), but they collectively did not drastically alter the basic look or design of the Lynx MkIII. As a result, Ford simply added the '*' to the existing ID for the vehicle while they continued to sort out the issues at hand. When Ford finally had a solution to everything that needed to be done to improve the Lynx I, it had changed enough in design, it warranted the Lynx II designation, which overall was an excellent vehicle.

Hope this helps.


David

[Andrew Rowe]

I have a book Ford Illustrated major assembly catalogue , FMA-01 , this shows Lynx axles from serial #1 to #201 and then #201 to #3000 and then the change to the MK2 Lynx using the new 8 - stud axle from #3000 and above.
The book denotes the same for engines and other assemblies , etc.

[Peter Duggan]

Started by removing the soft skin pieces off the RH side. The deeper I dig the better it looks. I've also attached a picture (thanks Bruce) of the missing armoured fuel tank cover and a fuel tank. Should anyone be aware of the location of any of these pieces, please sing out.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Peter,

Congrats on the purchase! Great to see another Lynx coming back from the dead.

Alex

[Peter Duggan]

Folks,

She's slowly sharing her secrets. I have all the exterior soft skin components removed, tagged and stored. Next step will be to access the engine compartment and remove the engine.
It appears that the original paint colour was desert sand before being painted Khaki green. The lettering 13-C was apparently hand painted on the desert sand before the Khaki green.
Did any Canadian units use Lynx's with the desert sand colours? Apparently the New Zealand forces used Lynx's in Italy?

Thanks, Peter

[chris vickery]

Peter,
if you are in need of any nickel welding rod to put that armour back together just let me know. I have several pounds laying around that I may be inclined to donate to such a deserving project.

[Peter Duggan]

Chris,

Thanks for the offer. When it comes to the welding, I'll be entrusting that to someone far more professional than myself.

Peter

[chris vickery]

Well Peter, the offer is open. Even a professional will need rod to weld up that armour and it will be expensive as they will probably want to use Ni-rod. Not sure how general purpose mild steel rod will work with armour plate...
The other issue for sure will probably be the fact they will want to preheat the areas prior to welding to ensure sound welds that will be crack free.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Well Peter, the offer is open. Even a professional will need rod to weld up that armour and it will be expensive as they will probably want to use Ni-rod. Not sure how general purpose mild steel rod will work with armour plate...
The other issue for sure will probably be the fact they will want to preheat the areas prior to welding to ensure sound welds that will be crack free.

There might also be a problem that if the existing weld is not very clean the old weld rod (nickle) may not mix well with whatever new rod is being used.

[chris vickery]

If I was doing this up, I would probably look at sandblasting everything bare even before attempting welding her back up. Another key thing about a reweld job like this is to also take into account the gap or amount of material that was torch cut out or that needs to be removed to facilitate decent welding and to allow for this when welding the frame back as well.
What I am getting at is that you need to keep the mounting holes aligned between frame vs body as it would be quite easy to stretch or shrink the overall dimensions on one or the other.
I would be inclined to make the body fit together really nicely and then the frame can be adjusted to match and be unseen.
Should the weld gap end up being too large to effectively weld in a couple passes, the welder can always affix a backer plate on the inside which can be cut off afterwards. A large gap like this can be filled by "weaving" the weld or layering in multiple passes.
Considering the fact that they left the escape hatch uncut, it provides a great reference for how close the two halfs of the hull should be for welding.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

There is, of course, the well known fact that the Canadian 5th Armoured Division inherited a great deal of ex 8th Army desert vehicles once it deployed in Italy late 1943. Many crapped out sand coloured vehicles found their way into Canadian hands so a desert coloured Lynx attached to a 5th Div. unit (say Lord Strathcona's Horse, 8th Hussars or British Columbia Dragoons) would be out of order.

Originally Posted by Peter Duggan

Folks,

She's slowly sharing her secrets. I have all the exterior soft skin components removed, tagged and stored. Next step will be to access the engine compartment and remove the engine.
It appears that the original paint colour was desert sand before being painted Khaki green. The lettering 13-C was apparently hand painted on the desert sand before the Khaki green.
Did any Canadian units use Lynx's with the desert sand colours? Apparently the New Zealand forces used Lynx's in Italy?

Thanks, PeterAttachment 64718

Attachment 64719


Attachment 64720

[chris vickery]

MMM, desert sand 8th Army. Sexy.

[RichCam]

Peter,

I looked at the picture of the fuel tank. I think I might have one here at the shop. It was in with a bunch of old CMP parts and pieces. Can anyone tell me what the dimensions are? I might even have the fuel tank brackets!
Cheers - Richard