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  #1  
Old 20-06-10, 07:51
antonio antonio is offline
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Default Iltis Alternator Problems

Hey guys, I have 4 Iltis jeeps, 2 for parts and 2 that runs. Well at least they ran long enough to get off the transporting trailer....

One of them has an over voltage production that i can get to lower. I've bought a new alternator (at a great expense) but even the new one over charges the batteries at 32+ volts (I've shut down the engine at 32 volts) The batteries are fully charged with a battery charger so the alternator shouldn't have to work so hard. I have the service manual in which it just says to "turn the adjusting screw counter-clock wise to reduce the voltage" but all that does is buying me a few more seconds before the voltage reaches 32v. I've cleaned up the battery terminal and even redid some of cable ends, but still no change.

And i'm out of ideas. Reading through this forum i saw a lot of people here with extensive knowledge on Iltis so maybe someone has seen this type of problem before.

The other one has a constant idling voltage of 24 volt (23.5 when fully loaded) so I'll try one of those "full-fielded output voltage test" tomorrow...

Thanks for any help
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  #2  
Old 20-06-10, 08:53
matthewq4b matthewq4b is offline
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I Had a similar issue the alt would occasionally over charge. I also had a faulty head lamp light switch it worked but would drop out on over load when the headlights were turned on. The Alt Over load had no corelation at all to whether the head lights were on or off. When I changed the switch the Alt over charge issue vanished.


Matthew
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  #3  
Old 20-06-10, 09:54
rob love rob love is offline
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90% of the over voltage problems that I experienced on the Iltis were due to poor connections. Loose terminals at the batteries would cause the alternator to over compensate and in the end would boil the batteries and fry the alternator. Make sure the cables are clean and tight at the batteries. Another potential problem area is the main connection at the starter. It acts as a junction for a number of wires. If this is loose, it also results in an over voltage problem. You can also check the connections at the master switch. Also, a bad battery (or two) can cause the over voltage problem. Check the batteries cell condition with a hydrometer; all cells should be equal within 20 points of each other. A single bad cell can cause the problems you are describing. Hydrometers are available at Cdn tire for under $10. If a cell is bad, the battery must be replaced, and on a 24 volt system, both batteries should be of relatively equal condition.

As an aside, there was a small bridge on the replacement alternators that also cause a bit of a problem. It was found that the vehicles could be started without the master switch if this bridge was allowed to remain. The bridge ran from the positive stud on the alternator over to the field (IIRC).
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  #4  
Old 20-06-10, 17:21
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Yeo.NT Yeo.NT is offline
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The alternator is not your problem, If i can produce voltage 32v it because the regulator is telling it to produce that much. Your regulator is the problem, try a different regulator and set it to charge at 27-28v
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  #5  
Old 20-06-10, 17:47
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeo.NT View Post
The alternator is not your problem, If i can produce voltage 32v it because the regulator is telling it to produce that much. Your regulator is the problem, try a different regulator and set it to charge at 27-28v
Agreed that if it's charging, just the regulator portion can be changed, but if two different alternators are doing the same thing, and the adjustment won't work, then one should be looking for an external problem. Mind you, it would not be the first time someone installed a red herring (a bad alternator to replace a bad alternator).
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  #6  
Old 20-06-10, 21:25
Rpoolie Rpoolie is offline
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I just went through the same troubles (sporadic overcharging).
After checking all the grounds, finally removed the alternator and regulator and asked a local alt/gen repair shop to test.
Bottom line, after testing the reg was found to be faulty and was replaced, with no troubles since.
Cost was $140.00 taxes in.
The best advice to offer you is to send the unit to a repair shop for testing.
Would have saved me some time and frustration!
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  #7  
Old 21-06-10, 06:58
antonio antonio is offline
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So here's the update: as I've said in my first post, i have 2 iltis that should run, so I'll call them iltis 1 and 2.

Iltis 1

Problem: Alternator 1 is overcharging to 32 volts and more within 15-30 seconds of engine start (not sporadic).

-I've tried cleaning the battery terminals, the connection at the starter, the ground next to the master key and every connection on the alternator. -No change Haven't touched the split connection of the positive cable or the connection at the master switch.

-I've also played musical chair with 4 batteries, 3 originals for the iltis and one random one. -No change I havent tested the batteries with a hydrometer yet.

-I took the alternator 2 from Iltis 2 and pluged it in Iltis 1, (although it was after it burned up... i'll explain below) This was interesting, the voltage stabilized at around 30.4-30.5 for a bit and then dropped down to 24... my guess is it is now completly fried but the voltage regulator may still work?

-I plugged in again the brand new (or its supposed to be) alternator, and it still overcharges to 32v

Iltis 2

Problem: A constant voltage of 24v accross the batteries and (as i later found out) smoking of the alternator

-I thought it was ok to use even if the alternator didnt charge the batteries, left of about a minute, came back and the alternator 2 was smoking like crazy

-I used the alternator 1 from Iltis 1 and there was still no change in the voltage. I suspect a bad connection/wire from the alternator to the rest of the system.

Rob you mentioned that a bad connection somewhere could cause the buildup of voltage, but since i can successfully and easily start the engine, wouldn't that mean that the connecitons are good? Also, unless there's another power generation equipment other than the alternator, how could the voltage increase? The alternator is behind the voltage regulator, so technically it shouldn't be able to raise the voltage beyond what the regulator dictates?

Also, when the alternator recharges the battery, is the voltage supposed to go up to as much as 30v? Or does it stay constant at 28?

My guess is that both Alternator 1 and the new alternator have defective regulators, and that theres a bad connection from the alternator to the electrical system on Iltis 2. I'll try changing the regulator from Alt 2 to Alt 1 and see what happens. Unless, is there a way to check if the regulator works or not? Maybe with the ohm meter?

I'm open to any suggestions and thought.
Thanks for your help!
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  #8  
Old 21-06-10, 14:54
rob love rob love is offline
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Most of the failures I saw were not from an overload, but rather from an open. The alternator needs feedback from the system to regulate the voltage. This is called the field. If it is not getting it's feedback then it tries to put out more voltage to get the necessary feedback. It will continue to climb the voltage until it self destructs.

The regulator should charge at 26 to 28 volt. I always found that once they do their climb above 32, they are gone. You will have to change the regulator.

Rpoolie's advice about taking your alt for a test is a good one. They can change the regulator if needed, and test the unit on a bench tester. If all connections are OK, and the batteries test out OK with the hydrometer, then you should be good to go.
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  #9  
Old 22-06-10, 06:40
antonio antonio is offline
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I'll be bringing the alternators to a shop tomorrow. Thanks for all the help!

One last question, is it possible and if so how can i use the iltis on short distances without the alternator? Removing it would stop the water pump, and unplugging all of the wires and securing them causes the alternator to smoke... Is there a configuration that will allow me to use the jeep without the use of the alternator?

Thanks
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  #10  
Old 22-06-10, 16:18
rob love rob love is offline
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Not without some fancy jury rigging. You could stick a different brand alternator on there as a temporary and not hook it up. There are also other 24V alternators out there off of highway tractors that could be made to fit and might be more reliable than the Leece Neville thats on there now.

The installation of this particular alternator was a Cdn change from the original German alternator. They were always a weak point, both for the lack of reliability of the alternator and for the poor mounting system, which was also prone to failures. Mind you, it wasn't so much the alternator that was at fault as the hidden location of the batteries, making it difficult for the operators to properly secure the terminals or service the batteries.
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  #11  
Old 25-06-10, 01:27
antonio antonio is offline
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Hey i just got a new Leece Neville alternator, but it has a metal connection between the (+) and the #1D... since such a connection is not on any of my previous alternator, is that supposed to be there or was that used during the testing or something and it was forgotten?
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  #12  
Old 25-06-10, 06:02
markcos markcos is offline
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is it a 100 amp or a 60 amp alt
??? they have differant regulators .
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  #13  
Old 25-06-10, 15:21
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonio View Post
Hey i just got a new Leece Neville alternator, but it has a metal connection between the (+) and the #1D... since such a connection is not on any of my previous alternator, is that supposed to be there or was that used during the testing or something and it was forgotten?
That is likely the bridge I was talking about earlier that was supposed to be removed. With it in place, the master battery switch is defeated and the vehicle will have power even with the key removed.
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  #14  
Old 26-07-10, 03:33
antonio antonio is offline
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Default Update

Hey Stuart,

Yes removing the bridge as rob said did make the new alternator work perfect. I seems like i tried originally to replace a bad alternator with another bad one!

I am still on the look out for the possibility to buy just the regulator tho, but the common places like Napa and midwest auto don't have such things.... After talking to a mechanic, he mentionned i could, if i'm desperate, buy an external 24v regulator and mount is externally... but i'll need to research that a bit more before doing it.

Thanks for all the help!
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  #15  
Old 26-07-10, 07:21
antonio antonio is offline
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Default Iltis Alternator Bridge removal.

I only removed the bridge between the (+) and the 1D bolt, just to make it like the other alternators we have. Although I assumed its a 60 amps, I'll have to look again at the serial number. I do remember that it is a Leece-Neville. I'll check next time, but it has been running fine since I removed that 1 bridge.

Thanks for those links! Thats was I was looking for! And as for those brush springs... hehe i did take one regulator out to see what it looked like, but i haven't figured out a way to put it back with those dam brush springs! But I'm sure i'll figure it out sooner or later!
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  #16  
Old 12-04-12, 19:32
rob love rob love is offline
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You flashed generators: I have yet to run across an alternator that ever needed it. Best bet is to scrap the entire Iltis and buy a M38A1.
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  #17  
Old 13-04-12, 01:38
rob love rob love is offline
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Yep, there it is in black and white. However, as I said, I never, ever had to flash an alternator, whether it was NOS, rebuilt, from long term storage, or just assembled from spare parts.

I know I said it earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again for emphasis: the alternators on the Iltis were not that bad. What was bad was the connection at the starter, and in particular, the connections on the batteries. When one of these worked loose, the driver would eventually stop his truck because of the very strong acid smell, and wait for us to catch up to the convoy. We were the last vehicle, behind the ambulance, and would usually be somewhat free running to every McDonalds or truck stop within a mile or two of the convoy route. Changin the alternator of course, was not enough. And usually, simply fixing the lose connections was not enough either, as the damage to the regulator was already done.

Why the army did not re-design the battery compartments on the Iltis to open from the top, or relocate them altogether under the hood in those storage compartments, is beyond me. Their location was a constant point of frustration over the 20 years that I worked on them. Operators just could not get it right: the number one rule about batteries (and one night stands) : clean and tight..
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  #18  
Old 13-04-12, 03:30
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default Alternators..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
Yep, there it is in black and white. However, as I said, I never, ever had to flash an alternator, whether it was NOS, rebuilt, from long term storage, or just assembled from spare parts.

I know I said it earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again for emphasis: the alternators on the Iltis were not that bad. What was bad was the connection at the starter, and in particular, the connections on the batteries. When one of these worked loose, the driver would eventually stop his truck because of the very strong acid smell, and wait for us to catch up to the convoy. We were the last vehicle, behind the ambulance, and would usually be somewhat free running to every McDonalds or truck stop within a mile or two of the convoy route. Changin the alternator of course, was not enough. And usually, simply fixing the lose connections was not enough either, as the damage to the regulator was already done.

Why the army did not re-design the battery compartments on the Iltis to open from the top, or relocate them altogether under the hood in those storage compartments, is beyond me. Their location was a constant point of frustration over the 20 years that I worked on them. Operators just could not get it right: the number one rule about batteries (and one night stands) : clean and tight..
Rob..
Of course you are right..alternators produce AC current which is rectified through the diodes to produce DC voltage..they don't require polarization....'flashing"...
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  #19  
Old 07-03-21, 01:41
BCA BCA is offline
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Default Intermittent overcharging

I’m trying to solve an intermittent overcharging in my Iltis. Two questions: the pivot bracket is hard to access. I see a nut at the rear end, but do you have to remove the front guard plate to access another bolt at the front end of the alternator bracket? Secondly, having removed the voltage regulator from the alternator, is there a trick to compressing the “Jack-in-the-Box” brush springs in order to replace the regulator?
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  #20  
Old 07-03-21, 11:34
super dave super dave is offline
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In the front timing cover there is a access hole and it you use a 6mm Allen key as its a cap head bolt. as for the brushes there is a small hole in the back of the brush holder so you would install the brushes and the springs then push them down and then you would insert a small piece of wire across both of them to a small hole on the other side to hold the brushes down until you install the regulator than remove the wire once you feel the regulator sitting on top of the wire, See pics. Hope this helps.
Attached Thumbnails
20210307_025224  33.jpg   20210307_031902 34.jpg   20210307_031948 35.jpg  
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  #21  
Old 07-03-21, 15:03
BCA BCA is offline
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Thank you Dave, now clear as a bell. I did check the Iltis maintenance manual and couldn’t find anything that deals with these issues. .... Brian
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  #22  
Old 04-07-21, 15:20
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Iltis Maintenance Manual page 2-5-30

Ref: Iltis Maintenance Manual page 2-5-30

Manual:

25. Installation — To install, proceed as follows:

a. Insert the outer brush and spring
assembly into the housing and compress
the brush spring with a small
screwdriver. While holding the spring
compressed, insert a stiff piece of wire
through the top hole in the rear of the
housing so that the spring will be held
in the compressed position.

b. Install and compress the second brush
and spring and push the wire further
into the brush housing to hold the second
brush in the compressed position
also.

c. Carefully push the regulator into the
brush housing until the regulator contacts
the brushes. Ensure a screw goes
through the negative jumper.

d. Install the lock washers and nuts and
hand tighten.

e. Remove the wire that compresses the
springs and torque the nuts to 125
N•cm (11 in lb).
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  #23  
Old 04-07-21, 15:37
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Iltis Alternator removal maintenance manual

Maintenance Manual page 2-5-12 & 2-5-13

Note: often the "plastic plug cover" is missing.

ALTERNATOR
18. General — The alternator mounting bushings
and bolt should be periodically inspected and
tightened, or replaced when necessary, to prevent
vibration damage to the alternator (refer to Section
6).
19. Removal — To remove, proceed as follows:
a. Disconnect the battery ground cable.
b. Disconnect wire #1 from the alternator
regulator with a 3/8 in. wrench.
c. Disconnect wire #1D from the alternator
regulator with a 1/4 in. wrench.
d. Disconnect both positive wires #2 from
the alternator with a 1/2 in. wrench.
e. Disconnect negative wire #52 from
the alternator with a 1/2 in. wrench.
f. Remove the bolt, lock washer and flat
washer from the adjusting arm and remove
the drive belts.
g. Swing the adjusting arm out of the
way.
h. Remove the plastic plug from the upper
timing belt cover, see Figure 2-5-5,
and insert a 6 mm hex head socket
through the opening and onto the head
of the alternator mounting bolt.

j. Remove the nut from the mounting bolt.
k. Support the alternator and withdraw
the mounting bolt until it is free of the
alternator.
m. Remove the alternator from the mounting
bracket.
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Alternator-bolt-plastic-plug-001.jpg  
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  #24  
Old 04-07-21, 22:30
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Thanks Stuart, Don't know how I missed those details. I'm not a fan of the style of the later Canadian Manuals or for that matter the later US TM's. I always appreciated the clarity of the 1940'-1950's American TM's. ..... Brian
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  #25  
Old 04-07-21, 23:13
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Canadian Bombardier Iltis manuals

Brian, I do not follow all of the posts on MLU, but I do check every few months. If you have any questions on the Iltis, please feel free to send me a P.M. I have about 100 Canadian Bombardier Iltis manuals and modification files and a significant collection of VW German manuals. I have also worked on most parts of the Iltis, with the exception of the transaxle and the rear differential. I have completed complete Iltis restorations.

Cheers!
Stuart
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Conv_CD_096_500_DSC_0402.jpg   Conv_CD_096_500_DSC_0412.jpg   Conv_CD_096_500_DSC_0423.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0531.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0542.jpg  

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  #26  
Old 04-07-21, 23:22
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Alternator bolts.

Alternator bolts. on the Iltis.

Restoration from 2017.
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Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0508.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0509.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0511.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0516.jpg   Conv_CD_096_600_DSC_0518.jpg  

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