Argyll or Blackwatch?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Here's one for you more eclectic types.

My mother was born Margaret MacKenzie Clow in St. Andrews Scotland in 1922, and emigrated here in 1930 with her immediate family. The following picture came to me with her effects after her death in 1983... it is someone in her family (whom I'll never be able to identify), but I can tell you that he has my ears and my son's face. This young officer is photographed in service dress, I'm suspecting circa WW1, but I don't know enough to identify the exact era and regiment. We've looked and looked, and all I can narrow it down to is Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders or Black Watch (I suspect the latter). Can anyone help? I'm sorry the pic isn't better, but it's all I have. I tried this a few years ago, with no luck... maybe this time...

Thanks,

G.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Geoff;

The 2Lt. is Black Watch, the cap badge is the give away, if he were A&SH, the cap badge would be oval in shape and the 'Glen' would be diced. Also, if he were A&SH, his 'collar dogs' would appear as two joined circles.

Also, this photo is from the early war years judging by the position of his 'pip'

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Geoff;

For comparison, the cap badge of the Argylls on the left and that of the Black Watch on the right.

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thanks Mark... Karmen spent quite a while today online and came to the same conclusions, albeit without reference to the collar dogs. I agree ref the pips.

Hmmm... so I have an unknown relative in the Black Watch. Now I'm going to have to find out who he was.... dammit! I wish the photo was duly marked, but it is not.



G.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Geoff;

The 2Lt. is Black Watch, the cap badge is the give away, if he were A&SH, the cap badge would be oval in shape and the 'Glen' would be diced. Also, if he were A&SH, his 'collar dogs' would appear as two joined circles.

Also, this photo is from the early war years judging by the position of his 'pip'

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Thanks Mark... Karmen spent quite a while today online and came to the same conclusions, albeit without reference to the collar dogs. I agree ref the pips.

Hmmm... so I have an unknown relative in the Black Watch. Now I'm going to have to find out who he was.... dammit! I wish the photo was duly marked, but it is not.



G.

Geoff;

Looking at the photo again, I would say he's from the 'K1' era (1915) and it was taken before he saw any active service (he looks to bright and fresh, to have been to the trenches yet).

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Hmmm... so I have an unknown relative in the Black Watch. Now I'm going to have to find out who he was.... dammit! I wish the photo was duly marked, but it is not.



G.

....time for a trip to the Registrar of Fife County in Scotland to start to research... K & I definitely agree on the direct bloodline... there are too many similarities for him to be any other than a close relative. I really do want to know who this man is...

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

I agree with Mark.No diced glen,a hallmark of the A&SH.Also,if I'm not mistaken,the inner black horsehair on the hair sporran were bobbed(short black shaped bells-I think there were five-two above and three below.We also have a photo of my wife's grandfather,Sgt Archibald Harfield,from 1915,He was in the original 13th Batallion Black Watch-Royal Highlanders of Canada.The photo was taken in 1915.Comparing the photos,the hat badge is the same,although he is wearing a purse sporran,and his spats appear to be dark khaki,for field service,as compared to white ceremonial.The photo was taken in England at a photo studio,and the back is like a postcard.He was apparently on a Gas Attack course at the time.Great photo Geoff!!

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
.........the inner black horsehair on the hair sporran were bobbed(short black shaped bells-I think there were five-two above and three below.

Hi Garry,

It's GREAT that you have a photo of your wife's grandfather These keepsakes are so priceless to have!

Regards Geoff's "relative" ... I tried a number of different kinds of searches, one was to try and recognize any "cap badge" of similiar size and shape, and that's how I figured it was probably "Black Watch". I'm tickled to know I came up with the Black Watch as my best guess (such a clever Little Miss MA I am ;;whuh whuh )

Regard's the "sporran" I also did a search on sporrans (gazillions from different sites) and did NOT find one that looked like G's relative's particular sporran. I was hoping to find a photo of some soldier dressed the same and with information regards who/when he srerved with etc. Nice try, no cigar! THAT sporran, it's very unique then, I would guess?

Questions arise for me What is the symbolism behind the "differences" between sporrans, or the idea of the sporran itself? THAT is something that tweaks my curiosity. I've been told that one PURPOSE of the sporran was to carry things, but there MUST be other reasons/purposes for a sporran?

Karmen

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

The sporran was originally a purse.In the military,a Heeland regiment was observed as to their worth.Generally a wealthy Laird would equip his regiment from his own pocket.In the beginning,they would cover the purse(sporran)with whatever fur they could afford.Through evolution,it came to horsehair for ceremonial reasons and cost.If a regiment was 1100 strong,the cost of a sporran would go down.Cheap,durable,and it was elegant looking and cheap.Voila the horse sporran.And to be distinctive,the black middle part would distinguish the regiment.The Argyll and Sutherlaand Highlanders also have a distinctive white sporran made of leather.When one sees a white sporran on a Sutherland kilt,you know the lad is from the A&SH

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
The sporran was originally a purse.In the military,a Heeland regiment was observed as to their worth.Generally a wealthy Laird would equip his regiment from his own pocket.In the beginning,they would cover the purse(sporran)with whatever fur they could afford.Through evolution,it came to horsehair for ceremonial reasons and cost.If a regiment was 1100 strong,the cost of a sporran would go down.Cheap,durable,and it was elegant looking and cheap.Voila the horse sporran.And to be distinctive,the black middle part would distinguish the regiment.The Argyll and Sutherlaand Highlanders also have a distinctive white sporran made of leather.When one sees a white sporran on a Sutherland kilt,you know the lad is from the A&SH

Thanks a lot for the little Sporran History Garry me bay
Interesting stuff ...

I've been having great fun searching regards G's Black Watch-man ... come across all sorts of tidbits (I refuse to call this history "trivia" )

K.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Here's one for you more eclectic types.

My mother was born Margaret MacKenzie Clow in St. Andrews Scotland in 1922, ... it is someone in her family (whom I'll never be able to identify), but I can tell you that he has my ears and my son's face. This young officer is photographed in service dress, I'm suspecting circa WW1,

Hi Geoff;

Did a little digging, don't know if this will help, but the following Battalions of The Black Watch were formed or mobilized at St. Andrews:

1/7th (Fife) Battalion, T.F. - mobilized at St. Andrews - 4 Aug 1914
2/7th (Fife) Battalion, T.F. - formed at St. Andrews - Sep 1914
3/7th Battalion, T.F. - formed at St. Andrews - Apr 1915.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
the inner black horsehair on the hair sporran were bobbed(short black shaped bells-I think there were five-two above and three below.

Hi Garry;

The 2Lt in Geoff's photo is wearing a Black Watch sporran - two above and three below, you can just make it out.

By the way Garry, the 2LT. in the photo is an Imperial (RHR) not RHC.

Cheers

[Bill Alexander]

The rank pips started on the epaulettes in 1914, but were moved to the cuff by 1915. Snipers had a bit tougher job with the move.

I came across this interesting read from a 1915 diary online:

http://www.battlefrontbooks.com/gene...blackwatch.htm

Black Watch Diary 1915 Private John Morris Paterson (2887) kia 1915 edited by Robert Pike

A brief pencil-written diary tells in sparse prose the short span of an infantry man; a 'Jock' on the Western Front in 1915. An unremarkable record of menial tasks, days of boredom, fatigue and discomfort, moments of humour punctuated by the exhilaration, the naked terror of being under-fire. Unremarkable, it may be, but it conveys the real essence of the experience and the brevity of existence, It spans a mere thirty-nine days of comment and observation; its writer's life in France lasted only a paltry forty-five days, but its veracity, its realism, its lack of self-pity give us an insight into how a typical, young volunteer soldier lived, and died.
Private John Morris Paterson (2887) from Broxburn, Linlithgowshire enlisted in the 7th. (Fife) Battalion, the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) at Kinghorn, Fifeshire on September 10th. 1914. In his regulation issue New Testament on the back page he carefully inscribed in ink this inscription, which is followed by the signatures of five others (1)
Enlisted in the
7th. R.H.
10th. Sept. 1914
John M Paterson
W Jas. Robertson
D L Horne
James Shepherd
Robert Douglas Burt
Cpl. H Duthie

Since mobilisation, the 7th. Battalion, the Black Watch had been detailed for Coastal Defence at Kinghorn and Burntisland, but during these early days of war, the Battalion had gradually increased, until mid-September 1914, when John joined, orders were received to recruit for overseas service,
Then there came such a rush of recruits of the finest quality that at the end of the week no more could be taken, as it was impossible to cope with the numbers…..by September 20th. three fresh companies were formed and the strength of the Battalion was 1,582. (2)
The frontispiece of John's New Testament confirms this, "Private J M Paterson, 'K' Coy., 7th. Black Watch, Kinghorn, 8th. October 1914."

Paterson's diary does not commence until after embarkation for France which took place on May 3rd. 1915, but it is well documented how those intervening months passed. It is probable that John was billeted either in the disused Candle-Works, a large three-storied factory in the High Street, or in a local grain-store. There was, because of the increase in recruits, initial difficulties in obtaining clothing and equipment which was overcome by the end of October, when for the first time in its history the whole Battalion was able to parade in the regulation uniform of the Black Watch, including kilts!
Time was spent training in the ideal, surrounding countryside until in January 1915, the Battalion was organised on a four-Company system. However enjoyable the time here was, all were eager for the great adventure to begin, so it came as a deep relief on April 13th. 1915, that orders were received to hold the Battalion in readiness for a move at twenty-four hours' notice, which conveniently soon came on April 15th.
In view of our knowledge of John Paterson's future, there are poignant echoes of Wilfred Owen's great poem "The Send-Off," and unconscious irony in Wauchope's description of the Battalion's departure,
Never perhaps in its long history had the little town of Kinghorn presented a more animated appearance than when the Battalion headed by the pipers of the 2nd/7th. marched to the station; the houses bright with flags, every window filled and the streets thronged with friend and relatives who had flocked from all parts of Fife to bid a last farewell. For nearly a mile along the railway crowds had collected and continued cheering till the second train steamed off and was lost in the gathering dusk, while the strains of "Sing us a song of Bonnie Scotland," floated back to the watchers lining the Embankment… (3)
How many of those eager young men, off on their great patriotic quest, like John,
never saw their Bonnie Scotland again?

The following day the Battalion reached Bedford becoming part of the 2nd.
Highland Infantry Brigade, Highland Division, which later became the 153rd.
Brigade, 51st. (Highland) Division. Here fifteen days were spent in a 'ceaseless
activity' of preparation until on Sunday May 2nd. the Battalion loaded onto trains for Folkestone, from thence to Boulogne, arriving before midnight.
It is at this point that John's diary begins, optimistically, yet naively entitled. "Diary
of the War," with the first entry dated May 3rd. 1915.
(There is an occasional discrepancy between Paterson's diary and Wauchope's Official History, but this is, I suspect, because John sometimes wrote in pencil the date of writing and described what had happened the previous day. There are a number of pages headed with the date, but with no details of the day's events).
Set forth from Bedford at 2 p.m. by train and arrived in Folkestone about 7 p.m. Embarked and after three hours' sailing we arrived in Boulougne (sic). I spent a very cold night there sleeping in tents (at the Rest Camp) Sent p.c. home.

The following day John, '…rose up about 6 p.m. more of cold, than of necessity,' and was marched to the station where, 'we got into trucks (Cattle trucks : Horses 8, Men 40) and after six hours journey we arrived at Lillers and marched from there about six miles with full pack in the dark. We then got billeted in a barn for the night.'

Perhaps the next entry is a good example of how little the average soldier was told of what was going on, and knew where he was!
The following day entrained for Berguette (7 kilometres north of Lillers)…..from Berguette the Battalion marched six kilometres to La Miquellerie (5 kilometres north-east of Lillers). The billets were of the usual farm-type, after wards so familiar…

The following day's entry is indicative of the long days' of inactivity and boredom the infantryman experienced between the, relatively brief, but intense moments of fear and horror,
5th. May 1915
In the morning we paraded in the garden at the back awaiting word to move. No word came however so we went back to bed about 8 p.m. Sent two letters, one home, et Un a la belle dame.
Who 'la belle dame' was is not known, but a list in the back of the diary
(incomplete) of dates of letters written, twice mentions a 'Betty R' in the space of
two weeks. Was she the,'….lady in the meads, full beautiful - a faery's child.'?

On May 6th., John writes that he was sent to H.Q. with 'full pack,' and received orders to proceed to Lillers to join the A.S.C. (Army Service Corps). Until May 13th. John has to stay with the A.S.C. packing wagons with foodstuff and taking supplies to the Battalion. On May 7th. he records,
It was about 7 p.m. when we set out and before ten we had two waggons in the ditches; we got them out and proceeded arriving at our destination about twelve miles distant from our last place about 4 a.m. This place is five miles from the firing-line - 'Paradise.' (Paradis)
What sarcastic puns were made upon that name!
The country was as flat as a pancake with farmhouses here and there, muddy lanes with streams beside them, long lines of willow trees, mud, swamps, reeds and rushes and the dear old rain which started as soon as we got there.
Fortunately, Paterson missed the 7th. Battalion's first experience of marching with a Division, '….and the long night journey from Busnes will not easily be forgotten by those who took part in it. (4)

These few days of making up the rations and driving them back and forth to the Battalion, usually in the small hours, depressed John,
After one hour's sleep we arose and marched three miles with full pack, then had two hours lifting boxes and bags of oats…. Asked the Company Commander if I could get back to the lines.
He also mentions on May 9th. 1915, a 'great cannonade this morning. Heaviest ever been heard.' This was the whole artillery of the First Army which opened fire at 4 a.m.
The entries for May 10th. 11th. and 12th. sum up John's disillusioned mood, they are short and curt. 'Same as previous day.' 'The usual hard graft….a very warm day made it far more fatiguing than ever. Absolutely fed up with the A.S.C.' Indeed, on Wednesday May 12th. one word stands out, '…ROTTEN,' but John's escape from toil and tedium comes the following day when he is ordered to stay with the 7th. Battalion.

On May 11th. during his absence the Highland Division was renamed the 51st. Division and the Black Watch formed part of the 153rd. Brigade. Leaving Paradis on May 12th. the Battalion returned to its former billets at La Miquellerie, 'two days later moving with the Brigade to the area Caestre-Fletre where it remained until the 17th. (5)
Patterson's diary entry under 15th. May states,
Set out at 8.30 a.m. on a long march arriving in Fletre at 2.30 in afternoon about twenty-one miles. This march was the most fatiguing ever we have accomplished.
He describes Fletre as '…a fairly large village where one could bye (sic) anything eatable…This town is in the direction of Ypres.'

On May 17th. the Brigade met the New Army Brigade of the 9th. Division, one of four Scottish Divisions, including the 8th. Black Watch, with men from Fife, old friends. But for the next two days after leaving, John's diary mentions meeting the army of Kitchener on the long march (some 20 kilometres) to Pont Riquel, and finds they impede their progress. On the 18th and 19th. May. John's diary entries for those dates are most succinct,A very wet morning. Kitchener's army commences to pass at 7.30 a.m. and finishes about 11 a.m. They move in the direction of Ypres. (At least 25 kilometres)

19th. May
Today we got orders to move. Start away about 5 p.m. on a march. This march lasted about eight hours doing seven miles. This being due to Kitchener's army being on the road. We arrived at our destination about three miles from the line.
According to Wauchope by the 21st. the 7th. Battalion were in billets near Le Touret and were needed to be sent up the line in support of the 6th. Battalion, ' ….in the open in the rear of their trenches, where lying in extended order, it came under enemy artillery fire. (6)

It is on May 21st. nineteen days after arriving in France, that Paterson's diary records his first experience of being under fire,
This place was shelled frequently and I was nearly hit, a shell falling about twenty yards from me. We stayed there in readiness all day.
The first experience of trench warfare for Private Paterson, during what is now known as the Battle of Festubert, notes a change of emphasis in his diary. Relieving the 6th. Battalion in the Festubert sector, he writes,
Today we stood in readiness….we relieved the 6th. Battalion at 8.30 p.m. About 9 p.m. we were sent to the second line of trenches with spades and picks. This was the most exciting experience I have had in my life. We started off, and before we had got 100 yards we were being sniped right and left. Then half of us got lost so we got into a trench which had been shelled and kept well down, snipers were firing at us from all sides. We ran across the open for about 100 yards being fired on all the time. I had a miraculous escape, a bullet just passing my right ear.
This part of the operation was characterised by trenches which filled with water at a depth of two or three feet, thus the need for earth breastworks and sandbags, and an uncleared battlefield with arms, tools and unburied bodies from both sides. This, accompanied by incessant heavy rain added specific discomfort to the general strain of battle,
23rd. May
We then remained in the trench and made bomb-proof shelters. At night we ordered to get sandbags, spades and picks and dig a trench between the German and British lines. This act was one of the most daring acts performed I luckily was left on guard but from all accounts I think it must have been a miracle, as there was not one man lost out of our platoon. They came back about 3 a.m. in a very nervous condition.
On May 24th. John mentions an attack by the Canadians who were on the right of the 7th. in the front line, '….we had to be ready to go at any minute, but was unnecessary.'

May 25th.
5 a.m. we went to the firing-line with rations - a very dangerous job. At 2 p.m. we went to relieve a platoon in the advanced trench. This trench was knee-deep in mud and water, we remained there until 20 p.m. (sic). There were snipers popping at us right and left. We never felt so happy as when we were relieved, We then marched to
a village named Lacon (Locon) about three miles away arriving about 5 a.m. We slept there until 5 p.m.
The next day's entry epitomises the soldiers' most urgent needs once delivered safely from the exigencies of the front-line,
After sleeping all day we rose at 5 p.m. and had tea, then went to bed again.

Relieved on May 25th. the Battalion remained four days at Locon until June 1st. when the 153rd. Brigade took over from a Canadian Brigade in a more southerly sector. The 7th. Battalion, the Black Watch were in reserve trenches south of Festubert with H.Q. close to the Quinque River. Here they were set to improve trenches and in strengthening the line continually under enemy shelling and suffering at least, '..two bombardments of great violence.' (7)
Paterson's diary records the mundane routine of, '..physical exercise, washing,' interspersed with an alarm on the 28th., '…ready to start at a moment's notice…no new orders came I went early to bed;' '…sleeping with everything on;' parades, '…a few lessons on the use of the respirator we lay about until night; a '..great French cannonade heard at night,' on the 30th. and on the 31st. the inevitable and ominous, '…blankets taken in. Parade at 8 p.m. Leave parade ground for the trenches.'

From June 1st. 1915, John's diary echoes the Battalion History
After working at the trenches all day making dug outs etc. we were ordered at night to go down the line about 200 yards.
June 1st.
Here again we had to shore up the dug-outs. We were at it all day. At 8.45 we paraded in fighting order and after getting picks and shovels we made a communication trench between the firing line and supports. Working from 9 p.m. until 2 a.m.
June 2nd.
…….cleaning rifles…a great bombardment of the German lines. The Gordons (Gordon Highlanders) take two lines of trenches on our right. Great havoc done by our artillery.
On June 4th. the 7th. Battalion moved into the front-line at Festubert for two days which for Paterson and his comrades meant,
Relieving the 6th. R.H. (Royal Highlanders i.e. Black Watch) in the firing line and supports…. Remaining on Guard…and making dug-outs etc.
On the 5th. June,
After working all day at dug-outs and mending the trench in every way. We proceed at night for sandbags. We got about two miles back along through the communication trench getting a Jack Johnson (8) about you occasionally. We arrived back about 12 p.m. Then we had to stand to until morning.

June 6th. saw the Battalion being relieved and marched to Pacaut where it remained until the 11th. Private John Morris Paterson's diary contains only two more entries, although the date headings he had optimistically filled in continue until June 10th. 1915. Both final notes encapsulate the monotony and discomfort of life out of the line; the uneasy, tedious calm both after, and before, the storm of conflict,
June 7th.
We had breakfast at 8a.m. and then proceeded killing 'Grey Backs' (9) and washing clothes.
June 8th.
Rose up at 7 a.m….we had the usual inspection of ammunition and rifles. About 1 p.m. a great thunder storm, hail falling about the size of a shilling. We were in a bivouac but got washed out.
The last words of an ordinary soldier, uncomplainingly stating an uncomfortable fact - perhaps the words of true heroism; the stoical acceptance of one's commitment to Duty?

On June 15th. the Battalion marched to Le Touret in reserve for an attack which was to be made the next day by the 154th. Brigade on the village of Rue d'Ouvert. The front line troops were relieved by the 7th. Black Watch during the night of the 15th. and early on the 16th. Orders were received to attack at 4.45 a.m. Orders received less than one hour before the commencement of the attack.
At some stage during this attack John Paterson was killed in action, whether in leaving the trenches supporting the 8th. Battalion, the King's Liverpool Regiment, or in the main communication trench transmitting messages from the front line by shell-fire, is not known. What is tragically indisputable is that one of the sixteen other ranks and one officer, Lieutenant Alexander C Westwood (10) killed on that Wednesday June 16th. 1915 was the twenty-year old from Dunfermline.
The failure of this attack may be put down to the lack of sufficient artillery preparation and to uncut wire. At that time the number of guns and the allowance of ammunition required to give infantry a reasonable chance of success had not been fully appreciated. (11)

It is a poignant thought that on Monday June 14th., John wrote a letter to his widowed mother; a last letter that may well have arrived at the same time as the feared form from the War Office dropped through the letter-box. What is definite that at some time between June 17th. and July 3rd. 1915, the portentous form B104-82 was delivered to Mrs. Paterson at Methuen Drive, Dunfermline followed some days later
by a letter giving details of John's burial place,
At a point 1020 yards due East of the Rue de l'Epinette (70 yards to the North of its junction with La Quinque Rue) and 310 yards South of La Quinque Rue 16 D 4.7. Reference Illies,Voilaines, Festubert.
French map 10,000.

But as in so many cases, this accuracy of detail was wasted. Mrs. Paterson would never see her beloved son's grave; the war passed on, returned and obliterated every trace and today Private John Morris Paterson (2887) is commemorated on Le Touret Memorial to the Missing, not far from where he fell.
All that is left of his young life is a faded pencil-written diary, a testament, a photograph from the local newspaper's roll of honour, but, most importantly, the knowledge that in his short span, a job well done. Lest We Forget.

NOTES
(1) It has not been possible to definitely identify these men. Soldiers' Died lists the following :-
Pte. William James Robertson 13th. Black Watch kia 4.11.18. Buried in Fontaine-au-Bois Communal Cemetery.
Pte.David Horne 13th. Black Watch kia 4.11.18. His number S/25644 suggests he enlisted in late 1916/early 1917.
Pte.James Shepherd 14th. Black Watch kia Egypt 14.4.17. He enlisted 8.6.15.
Pte. Harry Wood Smith Duthie 9th. Black Watch dow 25.8.17.
There is no trace of a R D Burt.
It suggests that some or all survived, or it is possible (although unlikely, I feel) that after Paterson's death his New Testament passed through other hands.
(2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) & (11) - From A G Wauchope, A History of the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
(8) - Jack Johnson. A Coal-Box. The shell burst of a 5.9 or heavier shell. Because of the black smoke it was named after the famed Negro boxer.
(9) - Grey Backs. Technically the soldier's shirt of regulation grey flannel. In this case, lice.
(10) - Lt. Alexander Cleghorn Westwood aged 21 from Linley, Cupar, Fife. Commemorated on Le Touret Memorial.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Geoff;

I came across this, and thought it might be of interest to you.
There was a 2Lt. G.R. Clow, of the 9th Black Watch (44th Inf Bde, 15th (Scottish) Div) KIA on 17 March 1916 while in the line in the Loos Sector.

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Geoff;

I came across this, and thought it might be of interest to you.
There was a 2Lt. G.R. Clow, of the 9th Black Watch (44th Inf Bde, 15th (Scottish) Div) KIA on 17 March 1916 while in the line in the Loos Sector.

Cheers

Hi Mark ... As ever, AWESOME I'll see if I can find anything on this young man for Geoff. I've been surf-searching lots for info. Amazing bits of history I learn too!

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Hi Mark ... As ever, AWESOME I'll see if I can find anything on this young man for Geoff. I've been surf-searching lots for info. Amazing bits of history I learn too!

Karmen

I have my moments.........

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I have my moments.........

Yes ... you do.