MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Softskin Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 31-03-19, 17:11
Philippe Jeanneau's Avatar
Philippe Jeanneau Philippe Jeanneau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 90
Default 16" 8 bolt Split Rims for 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet Trucks

Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945. The posting below is from February 4th. Thank you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/66266488488/

Last edited by Philippe Jeanneau; 31-03-19 at 17:31.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31-03-19, 21:47
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

I know you've already asked these questions repeatedly before, so I'm not sure what further information you are expecting..

The 30Cwt CMP , MCP and 1533X2 trucks are all standard Canadian designs and the 16" rim is the the common 16x6.0 design used by the WD/DND (ie Universal to Ford, Chev, Morris, Bedford), not just Australian trucks.
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31-03-19, 21:59
Philippe Jeanneau's Avatar
Philippe Jeanneau Philippe Jeanneau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 90
Default 16" 8 bolt Split Rims for 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet Trucks 1940-1945

Indeed I have, but I have only obtained some of the information, so I hope that if I keep asking someone else might pick up the fact that the backspace on these wheels is still a mystery... Mind you, I have asked for the backspace and not the offset...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-04-19, 22:11
Andrew H. Andrew H. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 200
Default

What do you mean by "back space" and "off-set"? These are not terms I am familiar with.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-04-19, 23:27
Lang Lang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 1,650
Default

Here is the definition explained

https://www.tyresizecalculator.com/w...el-backspacing
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-04-19, 21:48
Andrew H. Andrew H. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 200
Default

Does this photo help? These are the 16-inch split-rim wheels on our LRDG 1533X2 truck.
Attached Thumbnails
Split rims (1R).jpg  
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Andrew H.; 11-04-19 at 07:52.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-04-19, 02:57
Philippe Jeanneau's Avatar
Philippe Jeanneau Philippe Jeanneau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 90
Default 16" 8 bolt Split Rims for 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet Trucks

It sure does... I imagine that the wider half of the wheel fits against the hub? and if you were to place a straight edge on that side and measure the distance to the center it would be about 4.00"? Are they original to your vehicle? if not, what do they fit originally?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-04-19, 08:26
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
VMVC
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Victoria Australia
Posts: 858
Default Back space- Ford 16" CMP wheel

Hi Philippe,

Using Lang's link definition on my Ford Kelsey 16" CMP wheels the setback is 4-1/4" (108 mm) as measured.

A bit of parallax in the photo but when I got down to the level to the wheel the measurement to the bottom of the angle iron from the mounting flange is 4-1/4"

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_0139.JPG  
__________________
F15-A 1942 Battery Staff

Jacques Reed
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-04-19, 11:36
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 547
Default

Philippe,
You may not know this but ALL these British style MOD split rim 16" wheels, whether British, Canadian or Australian (though I think they were made in Canada?) have exactly the same dimensions and are fully interchangeable between vehicles regardless of tire size. The same with the 20" ones except that there were two styles of them - 8 stud dished centre ( used on 3 ton trucks) and 10 stud flat centre (used on Scammells and Matadors etc)

The British ones have BSW threaded studs vs the American threads on the Canadian ones and for some strange reason the valve cut out is in a slightly different position which prevents mixing front and back halves but as assemblies they are the same.

The only exception to this that I know of is the six stud version used on Dodge D212 and Chevy Heavy Utilities. I believe but am not certain that these used the same pressings as the 8 stud ones. Could someone confirm or correct that please.

David
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-04-19, 14:00
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
Philippe,
You may not know this but ALL these British style MOD split rim 16" wheels, whether British, Canadian or Australian (though I think they were made in Canada?) have exactly the same dimensions and are fully interchangeable between vehicles regardless of tire size. The same with the 20" ones except that there were two styles of them - 8 stud dished centre ( used on 3 ton trucks) and 10 stud flat centre (used on Scammells and Matadors etc)

The British ones have BSW threaded studs vs the American threads on the Canadian ones and for some strange reason the valve cut out is in a slightly different position which prevents mixing front and back halves but as assemblies they are the same. (No, even the Canadian made wheels have the wheel-half studs as 7/8"-11 BSF, same as the British wheels. It is the actual wheels studs in the hubs (and corresponding nuts) that are BS, SAE, etc as to suit the vehicle.)

The only exception to this that I know of is the six stud version used on Dodge D212 and Chevy Heavy Utilities (and F8A and Lynx I Scout Car). I believe but am not certain that these used the same pressings as the 8 stud ones. Could someone confirm or correct that please. (Not the same, the 6 stud wheels have bead dimensions to accept 16" taper bead US tires, the 8 stud accept flat-bead British-style tyres.)

David
Also, with the thickness of the steel used in the wheel discs, the offset is "0" on the 16" rims.
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-04-19, 14:48
Mike Kelly's Avatar
Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is offline
Fan of Lord Nuffield
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Posts: 5,605
Default 18

Australian 30 cwt MCP Chevys were fitted with 900-18 not 900-16 .
__________________
1940 cab 11 C8
1940 Morris-Commercial PU
1941 Morris-Commercial CS8
1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.)
1942-45 Jeep salad
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-04-19, 15:24
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe Jeanneau View Post
Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945. The posting below is from February 4th. Thank you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/66266488488/
Here are Philippe's pictures:
Click image for larger version

Name:	51412413_10213615338878336_2937104907104157696_n.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	70.7 KB
ID:	106413 Click image for larger version

Name:	51407547_10213615344998489_523306550580740096_o.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	517.0 KB
ID:	106414 Click image for larger version

Name:	51228093_10213615380239370_2322467148284297216_o.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	594.6 KB
ID:	106415 Click image for larger version

Name:	51116992_10213615383999464_4417937531148959744_o.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	115.0 KB
ID:	106416
Click image for larger version

Name:	51558868_10213615361758908_2431539492033658880_n.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	44.8 KB
ID:	106417

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6626...7100302738489/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-04-19, 18:38
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hammond, Ontario
Posts: 5,191
Default Answer to David Herbert.

Regarding the 6 stud wheels used by the HUP and now I learn also by the Dodge axles of RHD drive Canadian made trucks.

There are some slight differences wed have observed..... the six stud wheels MUST have a different taper than a regular CMP 8 bolts version......as the 900x16 tires do slip down easier than the 5 degree C15a rims.

The six stud wheels/rims I have seen all have the Kelsey-Hayes stamping which includes the date of manufacturing.

It also seems from comparing GM parts listing that the early first 200 Lynx Mk I also shared the six stud brake drum on the front axle.

Comments????
__________________
Bob Carriere....B.T.B
C15a Cab 11
Hammond, Ontario
Canada
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-04-19, 18:40
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hammond, Ontario
Posts: 5,191
Default Tony has the answers......

Thanks Tony for clearly highlighting the differences of the six bolt rim.
__________________
Bob Carriere....B.T.B
C15a Cab 11
Hammond, Ontario
Canada
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-04-19, 18:51
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hammond, Ontario
Posts: 5,191
Default following up on Hanno's pictures and Philippe question....

The famous Australian rim was therefore an 18 inch rim of similar concept/design made by stamping two halves in 1/4 inch steel plate.
Do we know who made them??? and probably sourced in Australia. Were they stamped by the maker like the Kelsey-Hayse rims.

Second question.... concerning the origin of the brake drum posted last in Hanno's posting........... I have a similar picture taken from the wrecks of North Africa...... attached...... from the picture I have concluded that it is a Chevrolet chassis from the cleanly sand blasted sheet metal, indentation on the frame for locating a LHD steering box and the spring layout. The fender seems to indicate an earlier version of LRDG using a 38-39 or 1940 round fender model.......

Does any one have a larger picture depicting that same vehicle but in larger format showing the cab style. So far I have not been able to find any references in GM part manuals for that elusive riveted brake drum and I have many.......

Thanks

Bob C.
Attached Thumbnails
1939 10 bolt Hub.jpg  
__________________
Bob Carriere....B.T.B
C15a Cab 11
Hammond, Ontario
Canada
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-04-19, 23:52
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
Regarding the 6 stud wheels used by the HUP and now I learn also by the Dodge axles of RHD drive Canadian made trucks.
Dodge T-212 8-cwt truck only. The MCP 15-cwt’s have the same 8-bolt WD split rim as CMP 15-cwt trucks.

Quote:
here are some slight differences wed have observed..... the six stud wheels MUST have a different taper than a regular CMP 8 bolts version......as the 900x16 tires do slip down easier than the 5 degree C15a rims.

The six stud wheels/rims I have seen all have the Kelsey-Hayes stamping which includes the date of manufacturing.

It also seems from comparing GM parts listing that the early first 200 Lynx Mk I also shared the six stud brake drum on the front axle.

Comments????
The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter as explained in Mike’s thread here:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1594

HTH,
Hanno
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-04-19, 02:23
Mike Kelly's Avatar
Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is offline
Fan of Lord Nuffield
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Posts: 5,605
Default rims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
The famous Australian rim was therefore an 18 inch rim of similar concept/design made by stamping two halves in 1/4 inch steel plate.
Do we know who made them??? and probably sourced in Australia. Were they stamped by the maker like the Kelsey-Hayse rims.

Bob C.
The manufacture of the Chev 18" split rims is mentioned in the GMH 'War Record' book. My understanding is, GMH made the rims themselves , GMH had a huge press for the job . Don't know where Ford Australia got theirs from . Anybody know ?
__________________
1940 cab 11 C8
1940 Morris-Commercial PU
1941 Morris-Commercial CS8
1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.)
1942-45 Jeep salad
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-04-19, 03:40
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hammond, Ontario
Posts: 5,191
Default Thanks everyone....

GM did make the wheel stamping initially but was later taken over by Kelsey-Hayse.......

In view of the link of the six bolt rim to the 8 cwt, I am surprised they were used on the early Lynx armored vehicle...... unless they had more than one version of the six bolt brake drum / rim ....... or it explains why they went for the standard 8 bolt set up later in production.

Bob C.
__________________
Bob Carriere....B.T.B
C15a Cab 11
Hammond, Ontario
Canada
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-04-19, 10:27
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 547
Default

Remember guys that the six bolt 16" rim was used on 8cwt trucks that had 9.25 - 16 tires not 9.00 - 16 (although I am not so sure about Lynx I ). 9.25 - 16 are lower profile and rather lighter construction than WD 9.00 - 16. They have not been available for a very long time. I don't think that there were any British WD vehicles that used 9.25 - 16 on the heavy style split rims so it is quite possible that they didn't fit. The main British user were the Humber 4x4 range and they had their own much lighter design of split rim with five studs.

David
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-04-19, 10:37
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
In view of the link of the six bolt rim to the 8 cwt, I am surprised they were used on the early Lynx armored vehicle...... unless they had more than one version of the six bolt brake drum / rim ....... or it explains why they went for the standard 8 bolt set up later in production.
... it explains why they went for the 8-bolt 15-cwt split rim later in production!

H.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-04-19, 11:27
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,285
Default

Hanno,
I haven't measured the two types of Canadian 16" rims to confirm actual size and shape but what you are saying ("The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter") is in conflict with the AEDB design record that states the rim for use with 9.25-16 tires has a 5 degree rim base taper and the rim for use with 9.00-16 and 10.50-16 tires has a 1-1/2 degree taper. The AEDB record doesn't give a diameter at the bead seat other than the nominal 16".

Mike's measurements (taken from tires) show both a smaller diameter and a greater taper (assuming the tire wall was of similar thickness at the bead seat) for tires intended for use with the "American" rim.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-04-19, 13:46
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
The six-stud CMP wheel ....... doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter ...[/url]
It actually HAS BOTH.
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-04-19, 13:49
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe Jeanneau View Post
Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945.
But all of these are 10 bolt rims?
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-04-19, 13:54
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
GM did make the wheel stamping initially but was later taken over by Kelsey-Hayes.......
GM Canada made them for Chevrolet vehicles, while Kelsey Hayes made them for Ford Canada and Dodge Canada. English WD wheels for Morris, Bedford and Austin are made by Dunlop.
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-04-19, 13:59
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
Second question.... concerning the origin of the brake drum posted last in Hanno's posting........... I have a similar picture taken from the wrecks of North Africa...... attached...... from the picture I have concluded that it is a Chevrolet chassis from the cleanly sand blasted sheet metal, indentation on the frame for locating a LHD steering box and the spring layout. The fender seems to indicate an earlier version of LRDG using a 38-39 or 1940 round fender model.......
This is not necessarily a LHD vehicle, in fact it is more likely not to be.

Canadian Built Ford, Chev and Dodge vehicles have the mountings for both RHD and LHD steering boxes on the chassis, even the CMP, although no-one has ever forund a LHD steering box that will fit a CMP chassis!
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-04-19, 14:16
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 14,400
Default 16" rim diameter and bead taper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Bowker View Post
I haven't measured the two types of Canadian 16" rims to confirm actual size and shape but what you are saying ("The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter") is in conflict with the AEDB design record that states the rim for use with 9.25-16 tires has a 5 degree rim base taper and the rim for use with 9.00-16 and 10.50-16 tires has a 1-1/2 degree taper. The AEDB record doesn't give a diameter at the bead seat other than the nominal 16".
Grant, thanks for correcting me in that the rim base taper differs between the 6-stud and 8-stud WD split rim. Good to see you quoting the AEDB Design Record, it is those primary sources which we need to refer to more often.

I made that remark as most people think only the rim base taper is different, which isn't true - see Tony's remark below. A 3.5 degree difference in rim base taper would go unnoticed when fitting a tyre. A larger rim diameter does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
It actually HAS BOTH.
Thanks for clearing that up, Tony.

Hanno
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-04-19, 01:49
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kelly View Post
The manufacture of the Chev 18" split rims is mentioned in the GMH 'War Record' book. My understanding is, GMH made the rims themselves , GMH had a huge press for the job . Don't know where Ford Australia got theirs from . Anybody know ?
The GM/H 18" rims look quite different to the WD-Pattern 16" and 20" rims in that they have have quite a few more rim-half bolts in a smaller thread than the British design rims.

Ford Australia's rims seem to be more faithful to the British/Canadian design, so I wonder if they are Canadian supplied?
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_0297-2.JPG  
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-04-19, 02:01
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

And then there were the heavy-duty 5 stud wheels made by GM/H for the Australian Maple Leaf trucks.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_5268.JPG   IMG_5272.JPG   IMG_5291.JPG   IMG_5277.JPG  
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-04-19, 02:21
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 547
Default

Tony,
Are those Maple Leaf 5 stud ones 16" or 18" ? I am guessing 18" as they look very much like the 10 stud GM/H ones and also have twelve studs holding the halves together.

David
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-04-19, 03:09
Mike Kelly's Avatar
Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is offline
Fan of Lord Nuffield
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria Australia
Posts: 5,605
Default Sankey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
GM Canada made them for Chevrolet vehicles, while Kelsey Hayes made them for Ford Canada and Dodge Canada. English WD wheels for Morris, Bedford and Austin are made by Dunlop.
I think at least some of the British rims were made by SANKEY .... Was Sankey owned by Dunlop ? Pretty sure my Morris CS8 rims are marked SANKEY but I will have a look. Also found brass wheel nuts on a CS8 I have ....

BTW that's a nice original Maple Leaf truck . Are those 10.50 x 18 tyres
__________________
1940 cab 11 C8
1940 Morris-Commercial PU
1941 Morris-Commercial CS8
1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.)
1942-45 Jeep salad

Last edited by Mike Kelly; 05-04-19 at 03:20.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tyre Rims Chevrolet MCP Lionelgee The Restoration Forum 13 25-09-13 06:19
Wanted: MLVW bolt together rims / tires MacRae For Sale Or Wanted 9 22-03-13 13:57
13" Split Rim Needed Jim Price The Restoration Forum 6 06-05-09 16:57
13 inch Split Rims Robert For Sale Or Wanted 2 11-05-04 17:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016