Amtracs at Normandy

[Gerry McGinty]

I have just been involved on another site on the subject of the use of Buffaloes/Amtracs at Normandy where I stated that no such vehicles were present (this based on a couple of books in my possession).
there was a swift reply including photographic evidence which to me anyway, seemed to prove that I was wrong.
Can any of the experts on this site help put my mind at rest? What is the answer?
Best regards
Gerry McGinty

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Gerry,

I looked into this subject many years ago after seeing the LVT-2 wrecks in Normandy. There are many AFVs on display in Normandy which are not genuine D-Day relics, but put there as memorials after decades of service with the French Army. Reportedly the LVT-2´s at the Utah Beach Museum (see below, one was recently removed and most likely scrapped) are believed to have been used in 1944 in that area.

I do not have the details at hand now, but IIRC Steve Zaloga found some references in US archives when triggered by questions about the Utah Beach survivors. Common wisdom had it the LVT was not used during D-Day. It transpired LVT-2´s were indeed not used during the June 6 assault, but for ferrying supplies sometime shortly after by a transportation unit (Amphibious Truck Company). They were used for a short period, mainly in the flooded aera/marshes behind Utah Beach.

This French web page reportedly shows wartime pictures?

Please point us to the other site so we can review the (photographic) evidence as brought to bear by others.

Regards,
Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

In the area of operations of 21st Army Group, Buffalos were first used during the Scheldt operations, starting with the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade's amphibious assault across the mouth of the Braakman Inlet on the night of 8/9 October 1944.

Cheers

[Alex van de Wetering]

I don't know about the LVT-2's, but if I remember correctly someone came up with a picture of two LVT-4's on Omaha beach a couple of years ago. I believe it was on missing-lynx forum and it was a picture taken a few days after D-day from the see towards the beach.

Alex

p.s. It seems the LVT-2's at the Omaha beach museum have finally "died". I don't remember seeing them on my last trip to Normandy, last year.

edit: it was this thread..http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/message/1089310983 sadly no picture anymore

[Gunner]

Hi Mark:

Thanks for the info about the Scheldt- I have persistent rumours that the SD&H may have been hauled ashore in Normandy in them. I haven't taken the time to read their official history yet but will get around to it at some point!

The reason for the interest is that we (S&P Museum) are sending an Alligator to Cornwall for use as a gate guard. The fact that Alligators were not used will be pointed out in the signage with an explanation of the differences between an Alligator and a Buffalo but they want something closer to what they crossed the Rhine in then the current M113 1/2 Linx that has no connection to their history at all.

Do you have any further info regarding Buffalos and the SD&G? Photos?

As always, thanks for the careful research you do... we all benefit from it!

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Do you have any further info regarding Buffalos and the SD&G? Photos?

Gunner,

No Canadian units were hauled ashore in Normandy in LVT´s. They did not come into Commonwealth use until well after D-Day - see Mark´s comment.

Re. SD&G, re-read Alligators and Buffaloes.

- Hanno

[Gerry McGinty]

Thanks for the replies chaps.
Here are the links which I picked on on the TMP website - hope they work!:-

http://img120.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_525lo.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80010zb2.jpg
http://www.le-roosevelt.com/utah_1945_5.htm

Best regards
Gerry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I don't know about the LVT-2's, but if I remember correctly someone came up with a picture of two LVT-4's on Omaha beach a couple of years ago. I believe it was on missing-lynx forum and it was a picture taken a few days after D-day from the see towards the beach.
edit: it was this thread..http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/message/1089310983 sadly no picture anymore

I am in contact with Dan Fong, so I asked him for the picture. Although he did not have the picture on his PC anymore, he was kind enough to copy the picture again from his copy of the book 'Kilroy Was There: A GI's War In Photographs'. The only caption with the photo was 'June 8, 1944, Omaha Beach'. Dan has no indication if the caption is accurate or not.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

http://img120.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_525lo.jpg

This pic shows an LVT-1 in the lower left corner. That makes it doubtful it is a June 1944 NWE theatre photo. When and where was this taken?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80010zb2.jpg

The French text mentions these two pictures are the only known ones showing LVT´s in Normandy, underpinning the hypotheses they were used there.

One of the other pictures in that link show the pair of LVT´s at the Utah Beach Museum. I recall seeing this picture in a 1950´s(?) picture postcard booklet.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

http://www.le-roosevelt.com/utah_1945_5.htm

According to the site, this picture is one of a series taken in 1945. I hope they dated the picture accurately.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

p.s. It seems the LVT-2's at the Omaha beach museum have finally "died". I don't remember seeing them on my last trip to Normandy, last year.

Reportedly, the one pictured above was temporarily removed in 2007 for restoration. Let’s hope it wil be back for this year’s commemorations.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

it was this thread..http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/message/1089310983 sadly no picture anymore

Tank Museum historian David Fletcher´s reply is useful to copy here:

Barry Gregory's book AMPHIBIOUS OPERATIONS (Blandford Press UK/Stirling Publishing USA 1988 isbn 0 7137 1547 2) shows (photo 55) what is almost certainly an LVT II on Utah with 4th Infantry Division. I assume these would have been opperated by Amphibious Tractor Companies of the US Army, rather than the Marine Corps yet their history does not mention this. Presumably they operated as supply carrier, alongside the DUKWs, rather than assault craft on D-Day itself?
The two very rusty LVTs now sitting alongside the Museum on Utah should not be offered as evidence. According to local people these were donated by a commercial operator in France who had finsihed with them.

[Gerry McGinty]

Hi Guys
I know that this does not prove anything but LCI(L)-553 (the wrecked ship in the French magazine article) was abandoned on Omaha beach on D-Day having succumbed to 88mm fire and there she sits with an LTV nearby (could be after D-Day of course)

Link http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/15/150553.htm

Click on photo for enlargement.

Best regards
Gerry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

there she sits with an LTV nearby (could be after D-Day of course)

Gerry,

In which of the three pictures do you see an LVT?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Gerry McGinty]

Hanno
Sorry I didn't make myself clear - I meant that there was an LVT beside the landing craft in the French magazine picture
link http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80010zb2.jpg
Best regards
Gerry

[Noel Burgess]

If you look here go to Part 3 [on the left] and then to page 123 of the file that opens - this is a page from "amendment No2 to Landing Table Force B" this appears to be the second tide forces due at Omaha Beach - anyway the page shows the loading diagram for a LST and includes 2 "Aligator" one belonging to 458 Amphibious truck Co and one to 459 Amphib Truck Co.
There are some 400 pages in the whole document - I haven't read it all so dont know if there are any more Aligators mentioned [I presume that "Aligator" does refer to Amtracks] but theres two to start with - obviously not used in the assault phase but as ferry craft with a large number of DUKWs
lots of other interesting detail in this documment
Noel

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Mike;

Originally Posted by Gunner

... I have persistent rumours that the SD&G may have been hauled ashore in Normandy in them ...

The first time that the SD&G was transported in or used the Buffalo was during the amphibious assault by the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade across the mouth of the Braakman Inlet on the night of 8/9 October 1944. The Buffalos were manned by members of the 5th Assault Regiment, Royal Engineers. At that time, the Arm of Service marking of the 5th Assault Regiment, R.E. was: Serial ‘1233' in white on a cobalt blue background, the Formation sign used was that of the 79th British Armoured Division (carried in the normal positions front and rear). Other markings found on their Buffalos were numerical markings which identified the user ‘Troop’ and the number of the vehicle within that Troop, i.e.: 3C - No. 3 Troop, third vehicle, these were carried ‘centrally’ located (high up) on either side and on the front and rear of the vehicle. These numbers and letters were in white. There is also evidence that 'tank' names were used by this unit.

Originally Posted by Gunner

... but they want something closer to what they crossed the Rhine in then ...

The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders crossed the in Rhine in Buffalos of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. At that time, the Arm of Service marking of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry was: Serial ‘51' in white on a red background, the Formation sign used was that of the 79th British Armoured Division (carried in the reversed positions (i.e.: AoS on the right and Fmn Sign on the left, as you face the front or rear of the vehicle) of where the AoS marking and Formation marking were normally found at that time, on the front and rear of the vehicle). I have found no evidence of the green over black ‘Diabolo’ Formation marking of the 33rd British Armoured Brigade (of which 1 Northants Yeo was a component unit) having been carried on their Buffalos, nor have I found any evidence of the use of 'tank' names by the unit.

Originally Posted by Gunner

Do you have any further info regarding Buffalos and the SD&G?

Answered above ... I think? ...

I hope this helps.

Cheers

[Gunner]

Hi Mark:

As always, a great response with clear answers to the questions! Thanks!!

I know I will get some howls from various quarters but, as I explained in my earlier post, we will likely mark up the Alligator to represent a 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry Buffalo playing taxi to the SD&G on the Rhine. We will carefully explain in the indoor exhibit in their great little museum, the difference between the Alligator and the Buffalo. The outdoor signage will likely be a simple bilingual label along the lines of "Amphibious Landing Vehicle 'Alligator' 1941-1945"

Did the Northamptons have a space on the Buffalos to indicate the unit being transported? I'm thinking a black square that could be chalked on, as I believe the Kangaroos may have done.

Mike

[Gunner]

Hi Hanno:

Thanks for reminding me of the earlier thread My memory fades occasionally, especially during the winter doldrums!

Looking forward to the big thaw and another dose of Olive Drab rusty trucks!

Mike

[Noel Burgess]

Wim has just posted a link to this site which has some wonderfull film clips of amphibious trials etc in the UK. Most seem to be in 1943 and at least one Aligator appears in 3 of the clips - "Amphibious Trucks & Tanks..." and Various Amphibious ..." on the first page and in another untitled clip on (I think) page three.
Noel

[Mike Timoshyk]

I recently received an accumulation of items from a veterans estate and in it was a photo album with a few pictures and postcards. Here is one of the photos....Buffalos lined up behind what appears to be a dyke....you can see an infantry section in the nearest one....the vet was a Sig.

cheers

Mike Timoshyk

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Reportedly, the one pictured above was temporarily removed in 2007 for restoration.

Over on the G503 forum, there are some pictures of a recently restored LVT-2: Normandy 2009 - look what I found. Most likely this is the one which was at Utah Beach previously. Seeing in what condition it was, and to get to this stage, >90% of the parts must have been replaced/remanufactured.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This photo popped up in a FB group

[Mike Cecil]

Hanno,

In my visit to Normandy, I seem to recall that Utah Beach was a broad sandy beach with low sand dunes. The image appears to be a shingle/stoney beach rising to low hills.

Mike

[wally dugan]

SIR Patrick WALL major RM served on a gun fire ship on D-DAY and had a model made showing a model of ever type of ship and vehicle that was there it goes into great detail and includes a LVT a well as such things as jeep weasel and others now l do not know how accurate this is but he was well known for his knowledge on all things military

[Jakko Westerbeke]

A recent discussion on Missing-Lynx has some good information:

Originally Posted by richard.c.andersonjr

I'm trying to track down my notes but IIRC I found that two LVT were assigned to each of the 20 Amphibious Truck Companies, accounting for 40. However, the overall requirement stated was for 200 for operational use, 50 for training, and 50 as a reserve. It does not appear that more than 150 (probably LVT-2 or 4) had arrived by the end of April, so 70 LVT-1 were drawn from the Med to cover the operational requirement and leave a small reserve. However, I am not sure where the others were assigned - I suspect it was with the ESB.

Originally Posted by richard.c.andersonjr

Okay, I've found a bit more. In addition to the requirement statement for US forces for 300 LVT made on 17 March, the following information is available.

As of 10 March 1944, there were 51 LVT-2 on hand and it was "anticipated" that 54 would be on hand by 30 April, implying the requirement was only for the 40 plus replacements needed for the 20 planned Amphib Truck companies.

As of 25 March 1944, there were 39 LVT-2 on hand in the ETOUSA. It was "anticipated" that 315 would be on hand by 30 April. Where the missing 12 went is not stated but the change in requirements to 300 was very evidently due to a demonstration of the LVT-2 done 17 March at the Assault Training Center at Wolverton.

As of 6 May 1944, the Ordnance Section ETOUSA noted that 80 LVT were "due to arrive in UK anyday" but there was no current operational requirement for them, implying that any use beyond those required for the Amphib Truck companies had been shelved.

On 17 May 1944, a final increment of 60 LVT-2 were released by ETOUSA to the British making up the total requirement of 105 they requested for NEPTUNE.

On 30 May 1944, the Ordnance Section ETOUSA noted that armor kits for the LVT-2 were not available but were due to arrive soon.

The most complete statement I have found is for 20 August 1944. It found US Forces in 12th Army Group and the ETOUSA had:
126 LVT-4 on hand with troops and none in depots or allocated to special projects = 126
293 LVT-2 on hand with troops, 7 in depots, and 2 allocated to special projects = 302
19 LVT-1 on hand with troops, 55 in depots, and none allocated to special projects = 74
There were no LVT(A)-2 available.

Problematically, this may not include LVT assigned to US Navy Forces in Europe, which will require another deep-dive.

And a few posts down from that:

Originally Posted by Peter Smith

There are - or were - a couple of LVT-2 wrecks on Utah, said to have been there since D Day. Photos confirm their presence in better condition as far back as the 1970s.

This photo purports to show a British equipment collection point in or after Normandy. But could in reality be anywhere in NW Europe. There is a single LVT-4 towards the back (arrowed) - apparently painted grey.


This USCG photo taken from a vessel off Omaha shows a single LVT-2, said to belong to the 459th Amphib Truck Co who apparently had 1 for evaluation. As apparently did 458th.


There is a single LVT-1 in this photo, bottom left.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks for the link to that forum, Jakko. Seems the same photos go round.

Here is another one:

“LVT-2 on Utah beach pictured in May 1954” - one of these two is preserved at the Utah Beach Landing Museum. It could even be they used parts of these two to make one example as by the time the restoration started the two hulks were very very rusted