Handing it down

[Keith Webb]

Having been interested and involved in CMPs since the mid 1970s, and having seen many collectors and historians pass away I have come to realise we are really only temporary custodians of these treasures known as Canadian Military Pattern vehicles.

Back in 1984 there was a very special event held at Rockwood in Canada, hosted by Bill Gregg. For those relatively new to CMPs Bill was one of the first to recognise the importance of preserving the history Canada's vast contribution to vehicle production in WW2.

Set amongst his amazing collection, the CMP seminar 1984 deservedly has legendary status, because it brought together the vehicles, enthusiasts and collectors with some of the men who designed and built these remarkable vehicles. Possibly the most famous to CMP history being Sid Swallow, responsible for the design of the early CMPs.

To quote from the welcoming letter: "Story-telling is the traditional way for the elders of a society to hand down their knowledge and history to a younger generation. The spoken word brings out the special meaning, feelings and color of the story. At this seminar, you are encouraged to ask questions, to probe the past. By so doing, not only will you be enriched, but so will be the listeners for many generations."

Why do I emphasise this? Because there was a video record made of this significant event, one which few have seen. Many of the participants of this event have passed on, including Sid Swallow, Bill Gregg and Peter Ford.

This event occurred about the same time since the vehicles were designed as we are now from the seminar.

If anyone knows who made this video and can help share it with the now greatly expanded CMP community I'm sure we would all be grateful that the intent of passing this information on will be fulfilled.

CMP%20%6084%202.jpg
http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0%6084%202.jpg

Source

[peter simundson]

One of the reasons no one has seen it is the incredibly poor sound portion of the tape. Whoever made it, and he hired a "professional" to do it had an equipment failure and the sound reproduction came out so bad he never sold copies, which was the intention. I could probably put it on a DVD.

Peter S

[Brian Gough]

Keith, a great post. Let's hope the video surfaces sometime soon. If I recall correctly Chris Vicary in recent years had made some attempts to contact Dr. Gregg's family for some follow-up.

We are also fortunate to have Phil Waterman, who attended ' CMP Seminar '84 ' as a major contributor on this Forum and someone who so readily shares his CMP knowledge on his own website.

http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/


Brian

[Keith Webb]

We have our own sound studio here - and can do some pretty amazing things to restore sound, although sometimes it is so poor it cannot be saved... but happy to give it a go - as long as it is intelligible I think it will be worth it. Hopefully whoever owns it will be happy to see it out there.

Phil was indeed very lucky to have been there and I endorse your positive comments about sharing his experience, Brian.

Originally Posted by peter simundson

One of the reasons no one has seen it is the incredibly poor sound portion of the tape. Whoever made it, and he hired a "professional" to do it had an equipment failure and the sound reproduction came out so bad he never sold copies, which was the intention. I could probably put it on a DVD.

Peter S

[Keith Webb]

Does anyone know whether any of the WW2 panel members are still alive? I note one of them was only 18 at the start of the war - I regularly interview former RAAF members now in their late 80s and 90s, so it's possible.

Be great if someone over there can do an interview if it's not too late.

PS I meant to add my sincere thanks to Phil Waterman for publishing the details of the seminar on his website.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Keith

Thank you for bring this topic up again. It has been discussed in the past and unfortunately it never has lead to a successful conclusion.

Yes, there was a tremendous amount of information presented and yes I believe that all of the panelist have passed on.

There are issues with the video, I have been told repeatedly by people who have seen the few copies that have existed that the sound quality is horrible which is the reason nothing was ever done with it.

There, may also be copyright issues which would apply if the video was to be sold. But these copyright issues may be mute because of the time that has passed and if the restoration of the video was for historical and educational issues.

I have also been advised that by people who have spoken with the Gregg family that this could be a difficult topic for them. So please do not disturb them with this.

The video without the sound track is 3 days of people sitting behind a table talking, which would be really boring unless you read lips.

There I've laid out everything I know about the video and yes if we could bring back the words spoken over those days I'd want to hear them again.

I have tried to share all I could of CMP 84 experience over the years as was mentioned I have posted all my photos and copies of all the written material related to the conference/symposium http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMP84.htm

Cheers Phil

[Keith Webb]

Yes I recall there were issues with the sound. When you say the sound quality is horrible does that mean you can't even hear the voices?

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Keith

Thank you for bring this topic up again. It has been discussed in the past and unfortunately it never has lead to a successful conclusion.

Yes, there was a tremendous amount of information presented and yes I believe that all of the panelist have passed on.

There are issues with the video, I have been told repeatedly by people who have seen the few copies that have existed that the sound quality is horrible which is the reason nothing was ever done with it.

There, may also be copyright issues which would apply if the video was to be sold. But these copyright issues may be mute because of the time that has passed and if the restoration of the video was for historical and educational issues.

I have also been advised that by people who have spoken with the Gregg family that this could be a difficult topic for them. So please do not disturb them with this.

The video without the sound track is 3 days of people sitting behind a table talking, which would be really boring unless you read lips.

There I've laid out everything I know about the video and yes if we could bring back the words spoken over those days I'd want to hear them again.

I have tried to share all I could of CMP 84 experience over the years as was mentioned I have posted all my photos and copies of all the written material related to the conference/symposium http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMP84.htm

Cheers Phil

[Chris Ford]

Hi Robert thanks for the helping offer,

So can your guys duplicate Betamax? If so, do they have any means of boosting a sound signal or filtering the noise - at least one of the five tapes needs some help I think. If not, what about subtitling? Although I couldn`t figure out what was being said, it`s possible somebody in the know could figure it out. I`m not sure how much of the seminar`s sound needs to be improved - I guess I`ll just have to watch it all to figure that out.

My wife pointed out something interesting to me last night . . . in trying to get rid of my dad`s CMP, I`m learning more about them than in all the ten years I spent trying to keep it . . . hmmm

-Chris Ford

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Chris Ford

My wife pointed out something interesting to me last night . . . in trying to get rid of my dad`s CMP, I`m learning more about them than in all the ten years I spent trying to keep it . . . hmmm

-Chris Ford

Go on Chris, keep it.... you really should!

[Howard]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Go on Chris, keep it.... you really should!

I second that motion... All those in favor say "I"!

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Go on Chris, keep it.... you really should!

Peter will be so pleased to see his son..grand kids..great grand kids..great great grand kids riding and driving around in his old Ford...
Chris..You will never find another like it..ever..!!
You will rue the day you ever sold it..if you do..
Keep it..
My .02....Canadian...$00.02.

[r.morrison]

Hi Guys: Spoke with Kevin today about this little dilema. At this point, I wasn't sure what we had to work with. Now I know it's a Betamax tape. He has mentioned today, that there are studios here that can eliminate noise frequencys and even mentioned the Law Enforcement Agencies that have equipment to hopefully eliminate some of the problem(s).

So, just clarify with me....it is a Betamax Tape. If so, how many do you have and if so, are any of these the original tape? And who has these tapes? The more info you can give me, the easier it will be to give you a possible answer.

We do have our connections with the Law Enforcement Agencies here (in an honest way!) so if we have to, we can connect with them.

Get back to me with the info and I'll see what I can do. Cheers...Robert

[Chris Ford]

Hello again, I apologized for the infrequency of my communications as well as the length when I do . . .

In April of 2011 a couple of things occurred: I facebooked Bill Trbovich, producer of the 1984 seminar about our interest in re-releasing the tapes and I breathed my last free breaths of having only one child. Shortly after Emmet Ford was born and he just started sleeping normally about a week ago!!

This month two MLU relevant issues presented themselves.

1. For a myriad of reasons I decided to sell the rental property with the garage where my dad's CMP was being stored. It sold immediately and the truck must be moved by March 8th (incidently my dad's birthday). I contacted Marilyn Gurney, President of the Organization of Military Museums of Canada (OMMC) who forwarded my willingness to donate the truck to a museum. I received replies from: New Brunswick Military History Museum; The RCA Museum in Shilo; EME Museum (which I don't know where it is); saskatchewan military museum (which is new, and I don't know much about); Canadian Militaria Preservation Society (http://youtu.be/QDfMighZEiU); and The Calgary Highlanders Regimental Museum and Archives.

I was wondering if y'all had thoughts about these establishments. I remember my dad speaking of Shilo fondly. I have interest in the truck staying in Sask. and perhaps helping out a fledgling museum, but wonder about it's long-term durability. In general I wonder if a museum will take the truck but never show it.

Colin, you had offered appraisal services. I have attached three pics. The hood is the cab, but can easily be put back on. I would be very thankful if you would be willing to share your knowledge here. In terms of mechanics, I believe the master cylinder for the brakes needed to be replaced and the it had been suggested to sleeve the brake lines. The fan belt is loose and both water pumps leak. The engine starts easily and runs great. (I find that incredible for a 70 year old truck with few tune-ups. - take that Honda!)

Do museums want the truck in running condition? Do they keep it that way? Would it be worth fixing the mechanical stuff before donating?

2. The other development, and the one more related to this thread:Bill Trbovich got back to me! Here's what he had to say:

Boy does this bring back memories. Let me put things in perspective for you. The CMP seminar you have a copy of was shot on Bill Gregg's farm in Rockwood Ontario in the rather large barn where he housed his collection. The cameraman who shot the seminar was Jim Reid who has since passed away. The seminar was shot on Sony 3/4 inch tape and dubs were made at BonKen Productions on behalf of my company, Trbojay Productions Ltd. I was still working for CBC Television when the seminar was shot and soon went to Global Television shortly afterward. My ex business partner, John Harris worked as the commercial producer for Global at the time and Ken ..I can't remember his last name..was John's editor. The reason the seminar was shot on 3/4 inch tape instead of betacam (the then industry standard), was because Ken did not have access to betacam editing gear. Still the quality was quite good but if remember correctly sound could have been a problem because we did not have a large operating budget, so a dedicated soudman was not possible.
If I recall correctly, quite a few of the participants were key people involved in Canada's military production during the war, so it was worth recording. Bill Gregg donated copies of this seminar to the Canadian War Museum as well as the Royal Canadian Artillery Museum at CFB Shiloh Manitoba when he donated his entire collection in the late 1980's. Bill unfortnately passed away but his wife Caroline still resides at the family farm in Rockwood. His son Andrew is still involved in television as well and they may have copies or the original. Beyond providing copies at the seminar participants, I did not distribute the seminar to anyone else. As to the new generation not using beta tapes, everything now is put on DVD. I have no problem making the seminar available to a new audience . I think it would be a great idea.
However before you emabark on any duplication, I would appreciate seeing your copies and perhaps I can arrange to have your copies re-edited, digitally enhanced and hopefully correct the sound problems. Video production has come a long way since this seminar was shot.
I considered Bill Gregg a good friend and I have fond memories of your father too. I met Bill during my days as a reporter at CKCO television in Kitchener and my passion for building models of armour and Bill's thirst for knowledge on anything WW2, especially Canadian, made for a lasting friendship. I did subsequent stories with Bill when I worked at CBC and again at Global. If you're embarking upon reissuing these tapes, let’s do it properly, for Bill and your Dad.
I would like to be involved since my name is on it. Thank you for making me aware of this.
All the best,
Bill Trbovich
IAMAW Director of Communications

So supposedly the Canadian War Museum as well as the Royal Canadian Artillery Museum at CFB Shiloh Manitoba have copies of the seminar - maybe one of them is the original. Perhaps they still have them. I can contact them to find out. It sounds like Bill would like to help make them available.

-Chris Ford

army truck side view (spare tire and tool box 100).jpg army truck side angle (50).jpg army truck front view (84).jpg

[Keith Webb]

That sounds very encouraging and I'm sure the MLU community would be happy to pay for copies on DVD once it has been enhanced as far as possible.

3/4" tape was used as an acquisition medium for many years before the 1/2" formats such as Betacam and then Betacam SP and digital Betacam came along. It was in two formats - low band and high band which was known as BVU.

It tends not to age very well as the oxide tends to separate from the backing leading to lots of drop outs and clogged heads so even if the original were available it may not be very viable which means the best available may well be copies on VHS or Betamax.

Let's just hope something watchable can come of this - it is indeed historic, with Sid Swallow, one of the original designers of the CMP range being a participant.

[David Dunlop]

Well Hello, Chris!

It's so odd I was thinking about you guys and your Mum the other day and wondering if your old address in Saskatoon was still on the Ford Family Map.

That would be great fun to see the Seminar again. I roomed with your Dad during that get together and recall he and Bill being in discussion early in the event about the sound issues. I think they did get it resolved by the second half of the event. I also recall an evening activity with slides and casual chatter, with someone keeping us very entertained with stories about the operation of the Ford Lynx, and Ferrets in Australia.

I believe the Commandant from CFB Bordon attended and the event included a tour of the Borden airfield, Training facilities, armour collection and I think even the Medical Museum, which was across the street from Worthington Park. The Commandant used to bicycle to get around base and it was parked at the front of the Admin Bldg with his pennant on it.

I also seem to recall a formal dinner, somewhere in Hamilton perhaps, with a very nice 25 per on the lawn outside.

Very best regards, Chris.


David

[Phil Waterman]

Hi David

Yes then Colonel James Hanson commandant Camp Borden attended the entire seminar, I remember hearing him comment concerning the discussions about North Africa and the need to quickly modify equipment, they are talking about lessons the Canadian Army has learned and forgotten and will have to learn again.

Colonel Hanson retired from the Canadian Military as Brigadier-General Hanson.

Cheers Phil

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I also recall an evening activity with slides and casual chatter, with someone keeping us very entertained with stories about the operation of the Ford Lynx, and Ferrets in Australia.

I have only just picked up on this thread and although the post above is now 3 years old, I may be able to add something.

David, I believe that the person entertaining you with stories of Ferrets in Australia was the late Dave Brown, an AMVCS member from Sydney. I know he was at the seminar as I recollect him telling me about it some 15 to 20 years ago and have seen him in a group photo.

[Chris Ford]

Hello folks,

After 6 years of not having enough free time and 6 hours of searching today (it was literally in the last and farthest buried box - and I had almost lost hope of finding it...

I was finally able to post the first part of the CMP '84 seminar on youtube. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zivENLfZcb4

I had previously dubbed half of the whole series onto a dvd, but my computer won't recognize that, so I redigitized today... and it took a couple of hours to upload, but it looks like it is there and working. The sound for this segment seems fine. I believe it is later parts where the sound gets a bit sketchy.

I hope to put up the others soon.

Enjoy!

[Keith Webb]

Absolutely wonderful, can't wait to watch it. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this Chris! Are you happy for me to share it to my CMP Facebook group as well?

Originally Posted by Chris Ford

Hello folks,

After 6 years of not having enough free time and 6 hours of searching today (it was literally in the last and farthest buried box - and I had almost lost hope of finding it...

I was finally able to post the first part of the CMP '84 seminar on youtube. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zivENLfZcb4

I had previously dubbed half of the whole series onto a dvd, but my computer won't recognize that, so I redigitized today... and it took a couple of hours to upload, but it looks like it is there and working. The sound for this segment seems fine. I believe it is later parts where the sound gets a bit sketchy.

I hope to put up the others soon.

Enjoy!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Excellent Chris! Thank you very much for doing this. This community is endebted to you for saving these tapes and putting them online.

Our challenge is now to put names to the faces and maybe produce transcripts.

Best regards,
Hanno

Originally Posted by Chris Ford

Hello folks,

After 6 years of not having enough free time and 6 hours of searching today (it was literally in the last and farthest buried box - and I had almost lost hope of finding it...

I was finally able to post the first part of the CMP '84 seminar on youtube. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zivENLfZcb4

I had previously dubbed half of the whole series onto a dvd, but my computer won't recognize that, so I redigitized today... and it took a couple of hours to upload, but it looks like it is there and working. The sound for this segment seems fine. I believe it is later parts where the sound gets a bit sketchy.

I hope to put up the others soon.

Enjoy!

[Chris Ford]

Keith - Yes, I think the link should be shared with the CMP facebook group.
Hanno - I am very happy to help the CMP group preserve this history and knowledge. I found it amazing to hear from those who were there from the beginning describing how it unfolded.

The video for reel 2 is ready. You can youtube search "CMP seminar" or use the link below:

https://youtu.be/Dg3Ow_yqt9g

I added the panelists names in the video description of video 1.

Although the sound has not yet been enhanced, I figure, just get em online, ASAP, and more skilled technicians can perfect it later.

I may have found the original tapes - I have 2 UCA 60's - One with the label, "Stills for CMP Seminar 84" in which there is a sheet of paper listing all the still photographs in the videos and another with no title - which could be Expo '67, or Montreal Olympics for all I know. I have no machine that plays this sort of 1 inch videotape. Anyone??

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Chris, haven’t seen it all yet but it is very good to see and hear those CMP household names: Sid Swallow, Peter Ford, Bill Gregg, Bart Vanderveen, and then some.

I am sure audiovisual experts could improve the quality of the recording. I am sadly not that person. But I am very happy you got that footage online!

Hanno