Sticky needle valves

[rob love]

Just thought I would check to see if others have been having more pronounced problems lately with the carb needle valves sticking. I went to get three vehicles going for an event the other day, and 3 out of 3 had this symptom. With fuel or ether down the carb, the engine would run until it burned that off, but would not maintain. Once I would crack the fuel line at the carb so fuel would reach the carb, then gave the carb a few whacks, everything performed as it should. But even then, a week later, the artillery tractor gets onto the trailer, heads to the display, and then has the stuck needle again. The carrier initially gave me the same problem, but now it's the other way with what would seem to be a wide open valve after sitting for just half a day.

The chev artillery tractor just had its carb rebuilt about 6 months back, the two Fords (carrier and Lynx) have not had rebuild kits into them for at least 4 years that I know of (likely a lot longer on the carrier, although we did dis-assemble the carb last year and re-assemble it after cleaning). Fuel pumps on almost all these vehicles are newer as there have been total failures of them with being parked seasonally, and I suspect incompatibility with the ethanol.

We have the 10% ethanol blend here in Manitoba. A quick google search has many, many hits with the same problem, particularly on outboard motors.

I am going to try a few different fixes as an experiment. I am going to drain the fuel from the tractor, and replace it with a higher octane non-ethanol fuel and see what the results of that are. I may also try some stabilizing additives and see if they help.

Another I will try is replacing the rubber tipped needles with solid brass needles, like the old days. For the brass needles, your fuel must be really clean, and to that end I normally have a larger fuel filter unit before the pump, and a smaller one right at the carb. Rust and debris should not be an issue.

Today’s fuel reportedly has a very short shelf life which is far exceeded by winter here in Manitoba. Several of our vehicles are due to go onto military change of command parades in the next few months, and I would like the operation of these vehicles to be seamless.

So what is the experience of the MLU collective, and what solutions have worked for you guys?

[chris vickery]

Rob, the ethanol type gasoline is a major source of trouble for many reasons.
Lucky here in Ontario there are a couple places where the gasoline is ethanol free (Esso Premium and Shell V-Power)
When I bought a couple new pieces of lawn and garden equipment last year, both places told me under no circumstances to use ethanol blended fuels and to only run premium.
As you pointed out, needle valves with rubber tips- bad.
Ethanol is a solvent which destroys any and all rubber components. add to the fact that many of our small engines today are also made off shore from material of dubious quality and it furthers the problem. Old type rebuild kits are also trouble whereas modern kits for the most part have upgraded the materials to include diaphragms, gaskets etc which will stand up to ethanol.
There is also the other side of the coin; what many people do not understand is that ethanol is a CHEAP additive for gasoline. Petroleum companies have been adding it as a way of "cutting" the product to the consumer, for lack of better terms, watering it down...
The burn rate of ethanol is much quicker than gas as well, in essence, you burn way more quantity and get less MPG. I calculated it out comparing Regular to Premium on a cost per Kilometer and as it turns out, Premium is actually the better value. I know that my truck gets way more miles out of a tank of Premium than it does Regular.
Anyhow, back to your question. This has been discussed at length on the G503 Forum, specifically on the M274 Mule section. The common theme is that whenever guys mules quit running for some mysterious reason, it always comes down to a new fuel pump and carb. Co-incidence???
I run all my MVs now on Premium and will likely run my mule on 100LL Avgas once its finished. Problem solved.

[Wayne Hingley]

I have no other solutions, but will reinforce what you both have stated about people using non-ethanol premium fuel in MV's that sit, or where there are components that do not have a tolerance for the ethanol content.

I try to use fuel stabilizer in all of my seasonal or low-use fuel tanks. It is amazing how quickly the fuel goes bad these days.

Im interested to see what other ideas/solutions come up.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

From your problem statement that you are having two problems with the float valve. One that they are sticking open other that they are sticking closed.

Agree the ethanol is probable cause.

Now to the diagnostic questions:

Do any of these vehicles have electric fuel pumps?

Are the vehicles in cold or heated storage?

Are you pulling the choke all the way out?

Even though the engines turn over have you tried hitching up a jump or charger?

Now to some observations on starting my three CHEVY CMPs. They all have different starting personalities even when sitting side by side in the shop for a couple of months.

All my trucks have either primary or secondary electric fuel pumps. All of these are on switches so that they can be turned on or off. When starting one of the trucks that has been sitting for a while I turn electric pump and you can hear a difference in the click of the pump as it fills the carb float bowel.

Concerning the choke, two of the trucks want full choke to start in the cold you can hear the "waa" sound of the choke. The HUP requires full choke then half inch in, it will flood and not start if cranked with the choke full out.

On the trucks with no mechanical pump if the engine floods then turning off the fuel pump and holding the throttle wide open and cranking clears its and then starts. On the one which retains it's mechanical once flooded only sitting will clear the flooded conditions.

I have removed all the viton tipped needle valves and replaced they with the old style all steel needle valve. Also have replaced all the pre-ethanol rated rubber parts fuel lines, pump diaphrams etc.

Now as I said in my New Years Day post all of this is not a guarentee that the trucks will start on demand. The all three trucks had been standing for four months the two in cold storage started the one in heated shop didn't.

One last extended parked start problem issue. The stale fuel needs a hot spark to fire and if the engine has to crank for an extended period to prime the carb. The spark may just not be hot enough to fire the fuel, simple trick is to put a battery charger on the battery the day before you want to fire the engine after a long sit. Even an hour before the you hit the starter will top up the battery.

Cheers Phil

PS Thanks for posing the question and thanks to all who respond, will make good Tech Tip topic for newsletter.

[chris vickery]

One of the main issue with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic in nature, which means it has a propensity to attract and hold water. This is the reason that it is useful as a fuel line anti-freeze. Water in the fuel is one issue as water attacks and corrodes the fuel system from the inside out- gas lines, fuel tanks etc. All of thee fine rust particles clog up the system, filters, carbs, pumps etc.
The ethanol as mentioned earlier is also a solvent when in contact with rubber components, plastics etc. Once again, turning these into goo which wreaks havoc on the fuel system.
A friend of mine had a small engine shop that he recently sold when he retired. He always told me that the best thing ever to happen for him was when the Petroleum companies started adding ethanol to the fuel.
His staff was always super busy, especially in the spring time when all the lawn and garden equipment came out of storage and then would not start. He kept plenty of kits, carbs and fuel pumps on hand to deal with the problem.
It seems that this industry has been slow to adapt, or outright refuses to upgrade their products to comply with modern fuels. Why would they?
The auto industry has adapted and overcome by introducing modern materials which are resilient to ethanol and other additives. Many cars are actually designed now to run on blends. South American manufacturers are building cars to run on as much as 85% ethanol, derived from corn.
I think in the long term, it is a case of using the best product available at the pump if it can be found. Otherwise, I would suggest that in the future, rebuilds on HMVs will require the ue of modern components in the overhaul of the vehicle. A 30 year old rebuild kit for your carb is still a 30 year old kit, made of rubber. Only modern materials made to handle ethanol will work long term.

[rob love]

Well I had at the carrier today to start things off. I pulled the top off the carb, and checked the float. There is a little rattling in it, but it does not have fuel in it. I put a new needle in, set the float a little lower, and it is running great now. I'll get a kit for the carb a little later in the season, but for now it's OK. That one normally does not need any choke, but of course it's a Ford, so that is to be expected.

Went to start the White scout car, and over 3 weeks it developed the same problem again: stuck needle. I cracked the line before the carb, gave it a couple taps with the wrench, a one second shot of ether, and away she went. The fuel is getting pretty stale in that one, so I'll be draining the tank this season and she'll be over to a mix of premium and avgas I think.

The Chev Artillery Tractor started OK today and I have her back in her spot. The top will be coming off that carb and the rubber tipped needle is giong to join file 13 (the dumpster). That one is on standby for towing a funeral carriage, as well as going to be on the Change of Command in a couple months. The carb kit I bought for it 6 months back was supposed to be OK with ethanol....I'm not so sure now.

The only vehicle of the bunch that has a secondary electric fuel pump is the lynx, and aside from it's first start of the season, it has been working well. I have never done the carb on that one, so perhaps it is overdue. On it's first start, I ran the electric pump for quite a bit, and it did not want to go. Cracked the line, tapped the carb, and away it went. But once again, it's a Ford, and I would expect nothing less.

Did get a pleasant surprise this afternoon with the C15TA. That one is notorious for not starting, and a tune up and carb job are long overdue on her. She did not want to start, so I reached uunder the panel and tickled the wires near the ignition switch.....away she went. Methinks I may have some wiring to do this season. There were way too many of those quick crimp blue connectors put on some of these vehicles in the past, and combined with the fraying 70 year old cloth wiring, are not a good combination.

Anyway, coffee break is over and I have to go put double and triple drain pans under all the Chevs now.

[chris vickery]

Rob, do you use Oilwik absorbant sheets under all those Chevs? I can put you onto them as we use a ton at work for oil management. They keep a garage floor tidy.
If not familiar, here is the website:
www.pigmalion.ca

[rob love]

Chris

We do in fact have a couple boxes of a similar product, which predates my working here. Those come out of the museum budget, whereas drainpans come out of national stock and will last decades or untiul the first or second time you run them over. I lean towards the drainpans.

Or were you suggesting the retention booms listed on the link for use under the chevs? They are not quite that bad.

In all fairness to chev, the lynx does leak a little. I don't know who told an engineer they could mount the Ford transmission sideways and get away with it.

[chris vickery]

We use multiple products from Pigmalion. Usually the Oilwick pads are used to protect cam-loc hose joints from seepage or blowout. They provide an effective way to monitor hose lines when under pressure with hot oil. Gives us a fighting chance to get in and change out gaskets as needed.
The boom products and other spill control items are must haves in any Spill Prevention or Spill Response Plan.
The nice thing about the pads is that they pick up oil but will not pick up water and can be used multiple times until they are saturated.
We use drain pans too but they still need to be emptied and mopped up once finished.

[45jim]

Here's a really informative article on Ethanol phase separation. I have seen this already in the carb bowls of three collector cars this spring, actual layered separation of the fuel into gasoline, ethanol/water and free water.

We did notice significant "corrosion" (more like pitting, oxidation) of the brass carb parts, only the needle valves coated in teflon seemed immune. Its a significant issue as most of the collector car market is served from China where quality isn't "job 1" and carb kits assembled here are part sourced overseas.

Its not a long article but informative and pretty much tells you to stop wasting money on fuel stabilizers as they just don't work on ethanol blended fuels.

Taken from:

http://fuelschool.blogspot.ca/2009/0...l-blended.html


Phase Separation in Gasoline’s containing Ethanol is now a major problem for all users of gasoline.

Whether you use gasoline as a fleet operator or for your family car, classic car, boat, personal water-craft, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, RV, lawnmower, weed-whacker, generator, or any of the thousands of other types of equipment that use gasoline engines; you are being affected by Ethanol in your fuel.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

Phase Separation is also temperature dependent. For example, E-10 can hold approximately .05% water at 60°F. To better understand the amount of water that we are talking about, picture 1 gallon of E-10 at 60°F. This gallon will hold approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water. However if the temperature drops to 20°F it can only hold about 2.8 teaspoons of water.

We recently were called to consult for a fleet where a fairly large number of vehicles were being regularly fueled from a single tank and about one-half the vehicles were stored inside and the other half were stored outside. After a night with a 30°F+ temperature drop, several of the vehicles stored outside developed problems with significant amounts of water found in the vehicle tanks. After checking the storage tank and finding no measurable water, they looked for other possible causes including sabotage. After looking at many possible causes this customer consulted with us and we were able to describe the Phase Separation through temperature change scenario and determine that this was the most likely cause of the problems.

Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an aboveground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage.

When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning.

When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom.

If this happens and you try to start the engine you can have one or more of the following problems. If your fuel tank pick-up tube is in the water layer, most likely the engine will fail to start. If the engine is running and suddenly draws water you can have damage from thermal shock or hydro-lock. If the pick-up tube draws the Ethanol-Water mixture or just Ethanol you can have problems where the engine will operate in an extreme lean condition, which can cause significant damage or even catastrophic failure. If the pick-up tube draws the gasoline, it will operate very poorly due to lower octane that is the result of no longer having the Ethanol in the fuel.

Gasoline containing Ethanol provides further challenges and dangers for marine operators (Boaters) and other users of seasonal equipment such as motorcycles, personal water-craft, snowmobiles, ATV’s, RV’s, yard maintenance, generators, and other equipment.

Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration will take place. Hoses will delaminate, o-rings will soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics will either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminum will oxidize to the point of failure.

Operators of boats with fiberglass fuel tanks built before 1993 can have actual structural failure as Ethanol will break down and pick-up some of the materials the tanks are made from. This causes two separate but equally serious problems. First the tanks can become so weakened that they can fail. In cases where the tank is part of the boats structure we have seen tanks become so weak that it is possible to collapse part of the deck just by walking on it. The second problem is that this material when dissolved from the fiberglass tank is carried through the fuel system and can cause damage to carburetors and fuel injectors and can actually get into the combustion chambers causing damaging deposits on valves and pistons. This material can be nearly impossible to remove without destroying the affected parts.

Two-Cycle engines have a special problem with Ethanol blended fuels. Two-Cycle engines function because the oil added to the fuel bonds to the engines metal surfaces and provides barrier lubrication to all the parts requiring lubrication. When Ethanol is added to the gasoline, it displaces the oil and forms a primary bond with the metal surfaces. This bond provides virtually no lubrication and can result in significantly increased wear and even catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.

Until now the only preventative measures available to tank operators and end users was to try and make sure there was no water in the tank and that vents allowed a minimum amount of airborne water (humidity) into the tank.

Gasohol, E-10, E-20, and E-85 are the terms that refer to gasoline containing Ethanol. For example the most common fuel available today is E10. E-10 is 10% Ethanol and 90% gasoline, while E-85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline (Note: E-85 is actually E-70 in the winter in cold weather (Northern Tier) states.

Ethanol has less energy (as measure in Btu’s – British Thermal Units) per gallon than does regular unleaded gasoline. This means that the more Ethanol found in fuel the worse your fuel economy will be. You use more gallons of fuel containing Ethanol to go fewer miles.

This poor fuel economy is made worse by other EPA and State requirements for fuels to change seasonally. Until very recently we have used what is known as “Conventional” gasoline (CVG) in the winter and “Reformulated gasoline (RFG) in the summer. The theory is that the lower volatility of RFG will reduce the formation of green house gases. However RFG has lower Btu’s per gallon. RFG together with Ethanol results in a significant mileage penalty. My own vehicle drops about 2 miles per gallon or about 9% when using RFG with Ethanol.

For many years the refining industry used a chemical called MTBE to meet the oxygenate requirements set forth by the EPA. Generally refiners used 15% MTBE and 85% gasoline. However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada.

This has left Ethanol as the primary additive to meet Federal and State oxygenate mandates.

Further the federal government currently subsidizes Ethanol with a $.51 per gallon tax credit that goes to the refiners or blenders. With E-10 this provides those refiners and or blenders with a $.051 per gallon subsidy on every gallon of gasoline that they sell.

In many cases we have seen gasoline containing more than 10% Ethanol. We test regularly and have seen fuel containing 12%, 13%, and even 14% Ethanol while the pump shows only 10%. Increasing the amount of Ethanol increases the refiner/blenders subsidy and profit while further lowering your fuel economy.

One more concern with Ethanol and RFG or Ethanol and CVG is that Ethanol when mixed with water; they readily form Gums in the fuel system much quicker than gasoline without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburetors, injectors, throttle plates; and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber. These deposits can coat sensors and plug catalytic converters.

The good news is that we now have products available to prevent and control Phase Separation and that we can dramatically reduce or eliminate most of the problems caused by Ethanol in Gasoline.

Because of all the problems with Ethanol Blended gasoline’s we will list some specific suggestions and recommendations on how to deal with and resolve many of these problems.

When Phase Separation occurs in fuel tank on a vehicle, boat or other piece of equipment, the tank should be completely drained. The tank should be refilled with good fuel and the fuel line purged prior to restarting the engine.

For Seasonal vehicles and equipment, e.g. boats, personal water-craft, motorcycles, classic cars, ATV’s, RV’s, lawn and garden equipment, gasoline powered generators, and so on, we recommend that you try to use conventional gasoline without Ethanol whenever possible and particularly prior to storage.

In ALL Two-Cycle gasoline engines where there is any possibility that you are using gasoline containing Ethanol we strongly suggest using a full synthetic two-cycle oil in the gas.

In bulk storage tanks where you believe phase separation may have occurred or where you are concerned it may happen. We suggest the use of a modified water finding paste such is made by the Kolor Kut Company. This paste starts out brown, if you dip the tank with a measuring stick with the paste and it turns yellow (even light or spotty yellow), you have significant water dissolved in the fuel, if the paste turns red you have free water.

If you have fuel that has Phase Separated and you have either two or three layers you should arrange to have the tank pumped from the bottom to remove the one or two bottom layers containing the water and or the Ethanol/Water mix. (Note: you should check again with the paste before the technician leaves to be certain that all the Water and Water/Ethanol has been completely removed). You do not need to remove the gasoline. Check with water finding paste after 24 hours. If no red or yellow present then add clean fuel to the tank to working capacity.

[chris vickery]

http://www.pure-gas.org/
Check it out for stations without ethanol

[Dave Schindel]

Hi Rob, here in SK. premium fuel has no ethanol, so I just keep a couple cans of premium on hand for all the seasonal engines (or anything that might be sitting for any length of time). Makes a BIG difference.

[rob love]

So here is another one. We have one of the old deuce (M133/M135) here that occasionally goes on a parade or downtown display. Last year it went for a quick run around the base and the fuel pump quit. I brought in a NOS pump I had from home, along with a set of the rubber mounts (4 little rubber cords about 1-1/4 long) since you will rarely remove them in one piece. Cleaned up as required, and everything was fine, with the exception of the little rubber mounts which turned to goo within a night.

Now, 10 months later, I go to start the deuce and do not get the re-assuring whirr of the fuel pump. No start condition. So I go straight to the fuel tank and remove the cage the fuel pump is mounted in.

To get to the fuel pump you have to remove two cuno type filters, which I did, and here is what was greeting me:

[rob love]

Obviously, something is not happy with the new fuel. Last year, when I installed the new pump, the four little rubber mounts turned to goo within a day. To find a suitable replacement, I did some quick tests on various items around the shop, and found that the mil-spec 8 gauge wire worked out alright....it's hypalon coating did not seem to be effected by the fuel. To that end, they are still in good shape, although to remove them, I ran a screw through them and pulled out the wire core. The outer wrap came out in one piece and still in good shape after a year.


I removed the pump, and then proceeded to remove the filter screen from it. Inside again was coated in grey sediment/goo. I removed the bottom of the pump which reveals the impeller, and more goo. Upon a quick cleaning and a little spin, the impeller is free.

I pulled one of the two brushes for the motor, and it was fine.

So I have no idea what was decomposing from the fuel. The goo was only in the pump, and not in the main tank, although it is not super clean either. I'll be cleaning out the tank, run some hot water through, put it all back together and run the Jerry cans into town to pick up 30 gallons of non-ethanol fuel.

The part I am worried about myself is I did the fuel system on my deuce at home about a year and a half back. It ran fine last fall, but mid-winter I went to start it and it did not want to go. Not looking forward to the results there.

If I have to, I can go to an external fuel pump for both until I get some new parts ordered and in. Anyone else with a deuce who is going to try this, note you will have to plug the little bleed holes on the pickup tube or your pump will just suck air.

While it is debatable about the merits of ethanol blended fuel for the environment, I can assure you I am not feeling very "green" right now.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

Well this morning being April 1 figured it would be good day to start all three trucks last time they were started January 1st. Last time the trucks were fueled was last week in July so the fuel is pretty stale.

All three trucks fired and ran fine, little weak acceleration on hills, did a GoPro video, but the only the only things of importance to this discussion is the sound of the electric fuel pumps priming the carbs. No starting ether no pumping the peddle just prime carb with fuel pump, choke and hit the starter.

Did remember one thing though from last time had starting problem, plugged modern fuel between tank and pump, the clear type should be able to see dirt and crud, but last time the filter looked OK but would not pass fuel. Back clear it with air and the pump worked and would then plug again. Cut the filter open and the filter the filter media was gummed with white deposit.

Sorry short on solutions long on observations. Only possible solution I see is drive more often.

Cheers Phil

PS Long no driving period was because of hand surgery.

[chris vickery]

Phil, are they adding ethanol to your fuels in the USA? Stale gas usually works, not the greatest depending on age but there may be a difference between US fuel and Canadian fuels...
I am going to hit the guy up down the road that runs float planes. I see he has a 500 gallon tank of Avgas sitting by the hangar.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Chris

They started adding ethanol here in New Hampshire in 2006, immediately started causing problems. I first notice it the first time, filled some Canadian style Jeery cans that had always been carried on their sides in the side rack on my HUP, they had always been carried full and never leaked. Used them up at a rally, refilled them drove back to the rally and both caps were leaking. Opened them up and the gaskets in the cam lock covers were the consistency of marshmallow whip.

With in a very short time club rides and parades were being regularly interuptured with, leaky fuel lines, failed fuel pumps, plugged fuel filter. Took almost a year to get most everyone in the club to get the message. One on going problem was fuel pumps because so many pumps were and so much fuel line in the parts system. Think I replaced four mechaical fuel pumps in two years, until ethanol resistant Chevy fuel pumps started coming out.

Cheers Phil

[Stew Robertson]

Just an old trick from way back when that has served me well
add some mothballs to your fuel tank and they seem to help get rid of the water and dissolve the fine dirt
any carbs That I have used it on are always nice and clean

[Lynn Eades]

Stew, our moths are only small and it's just not worth my time to catch them.

[Jesse Browning]

Interesting discussion on fuel problems. Over the years I have encountered numerous similar problems where everything in the fuel system had been replaced, sometimes repeatedly, only to find the problem was a bad condenser. Runs fine when cold, but starts acting up when hot. I always tell people with symptoms such as these to replace the condenser first. It's cheap and easy, and eliminates that possibility. Get a new one, not a nos one. They don't age well. Jesse.