British 6inch Gun

cliff · #1 18-03-13, 07:04

To those more knowledgeable then me.

Did the Australian Army during WW2 have these British 6 inch guns (pic below) amongst it's equipment?

This AWM Photo is of British guns at Tobruk.

Mike Cecil · #2 18-03-13, 17:23

Cliff

The short answer is yes.

The 'Howitzer, BL, 6 inch, 26 cwt' (to use the short form or ... 'Ordnance BL 6 inch 26 cwt Howitzer Mk.1 on Carriage Mks 1 or 1(P) or 1(R) or 1(PA) or 1(P)(Aust)' to use the long forms.)

Small number held in Aust prior to the war. Wartime holdings delivered direct from the UK, others from the Middle East, so the ones in the image may well have ended up in Australia.

Superseded by the 5.5 inch BL Howitzer, which remained in service post war.

Mike C

cliff · #3 18-03-13, 23:48

Thanks Mike I appreciate that answer. Can you tell me what towed them in the AIF please?

Mike Cecil · #4 19-03-13, 00:55

Tractors, Artillery (Aust) No.5 - a 6x6 Ford-Marmon Herrington tractor with purpose-built bodywork, for the 6 inch BL Howitzer - pretty sure I'm correct without checking any further.

Mack heavy artillery tractor - don't remember the Mack model off hand - for the 5.5inch BL. Both retained post-war. The 5.5 inch outlasted the Mack, being finally towed by the Truck, 5 ton, 6x6 F1 (No, it's not a 'Mk.5' as commonly stated, but an 'F1') built by International Harvester.

Mike C

cliff · #5 19-03-13, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Tractors, Artillery (Aust) No.5 - a 6x6 Ford-Marmon Herrington tractor with purpose-built bodywork, for the 6 inch BL Howitzer - pretty sure I'm correct without checking any further.

Mack heavy artillery tractor - don't remember the Mack model off hand - for the 5.5inch BL. Both retained post-war. The 5.5 inch outlasted the Mack, being finally towed by the Truck, 5 ton, 6x6 F1 (No, it's not a 'Mk.5' as commonly stated, but an 'F1') built by International Harvester.

Mike C

Thanks Mike. Does anyone have any photos of the M/H 6X6 Ford? The Mack would probably been either MN or NO models

Mike Cecil · #6 19-03-13, 02:29

Wait for the book.....

Mike C

cliff · #7 19-03-13, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Wait for the book.....

Mike C

Darn now I can't wait

Any news on an approximate release date Mike?

George Moore · #8 19-03-13, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Cliff

The short answer is yes.

The 'Howitzer, BL, 6 inch, 26 cwt' (to use the short form or ... 'Ordnance BL 6 inch 26 cwt Howitzer Mk.1 on Carriage Mks 1 or 1(P) or 1(R) or 1(PA) or 1(P)(Aust)' to use the long forms.)

Small number held in Aust prior to the war. Wartime holdings delivered direct from the UK, others from the Middle East, so the ones in the image may well have ended up in Australia.

Superseded by the 5.5 inch BL Howitzer, which remained in service post war.

Mike C

Interesting,
I did quite a bit of research on the gun for the master for the Resicast kit.
I'm intrigued by your ref 1(P) Aust. So there was an Oz version, can you enlighten me on the changes there may have been.
I have details from the 1919, 1924 and 1937 manuals ex Firepower Museum at Woolwich. I know the carriage remained the same pretty much throughout with changes to the towing eye, from a cast eye, then a short attachment bolted through the existin eye, later a whole new assembly and longer towing bar.
Wheels were another issue, spoked artillery type, then fitted with "shoes" and again a wider "ring" of felloes bolted to the wheel rim, others had a solid rubber tyre fitted to the original spoked wheel. Pneumatic tyres fitted to inter-war guns had a "Martin Parry" type adaptor to the axletree, then late guns had a revised axle to use the 13.50 x 20 tyres.
Interwar on those with the solid rubber tyre, and some fitted with the wider "ring" also had a central brake drum.
I am slowly gathering info in the hope of writing a small article on thge gun for a modelling magazine.

George.

Mike Cecil · #9 19-03-13, 17:25

George,

As far as I'm aware, the 1(P) was the Brit pneumatic wheeled carriage. Those imported as such were Mk.1 (P), and those converted locally in Aust (from the pre-war stock) were Mk.1(P)(Aust). I don't know the differences in detail, but the installation of pneumatic wheels on all sorts of items in Australia used the simplest method available from locally available materials.

Mike C

cliff · #10 19-03-13, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

George,

As far as I'm aware, the 1(P) was the Brit pneumatic wheeled carriage. Those imported as such were Mk.1 (P), and those converted locally in Aust (from the pre-war stock) were Mk.1(P)(Aust). I don't know the differences in detail, but the installation of pneumatic wheels on all sorts of items in Australia used the simplest method available from locally available materials.

Mike C

Mike could the conversion on local (Aust) guns been the same as the 4.5 inch gun conversion? I have photos showing a 4.5in limber conversion done here in Australia and it was quite simple.

George Moore · #11 19-03-13, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

George,

As far as I'm aware, the 1(P) was the Brit pneumatic wheeled carriage. Those imported as such were Mk.1 (P), and those converted locally in Aust (from the pre-war stock) were Mk.1(P)(Aust). I don't know the differences in detail, but the installation of pneumatic wheels on all sorts of items in Australia used the simplest method available from locally available materials.

Mike C

Here are shots of the MkIP and PA, (according to the manual).
The Ip has 13.50 x 20 tyres, the IPA has 15.50 x 24 tyres.
It seems strangs the IPA is an inter-war the IP the later pattern.

I dont think I could ever get my head around the designations applied to British equipment.

George.

Mike Cecil · #12 20-03-13, 01:29

Cliff & George,

Sorry, you've reached the limit of my knowledge on the 6 inch BL. Time to find some examples and compare them.

Don't know of too many survivors in Australia, though. The RAA museum collection is in storage at Bandiana, but that may be a source of info.

Mike C

George Moore · #13 20-03-13, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Cliff & George,

Sorry, you've reached the limit of my knowledge on the 6 inch BL. Time to find some examples and compare them.

Don't know of too many survivors in Australia, though. The RAA museum collection is in storage at Bandiana, but that may be a source of info.

Mike C

No problems mate.
Just seemed strange having an Aus suffix to the mark of gun.
18pdrs, 4.5" howitzers had slight differences in "Commonwealth" service, particularly wheels/tyres.
Might be the old story, as rubber was getting scarce...better to use what was available re civilian stuff......just a thought.

George.

lynx42 · #14 22-03-13, 00:56

Many, many years ago there was a 6 inch carriage and trail on a farm near Drouin, Victoria. John Belfield beat me to it and located a barrel etc on the range at Pucka and put it together. I do not remember the size of the tyres, but they were certainly wide on quite large wheels.

Regards Rick.

rnixartillery · #15 22-03-13, 01:17

Here's a few pictures of the 6" Howitzer at 'Firepower' the Artillery museum in London.
Does anyone know what happened to Johns 6" gun ?

Rob...............rnixartillery

George Moore · #16 22-03-13, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Here's a few pictures of the 6" Howitzer at 'Firepower' the Artillery museum in London.
Does anyone know what happened to Johns 6" gun ?

Rob...............rnixartillery

I recall seeing a photo of a 6" in a yard on this MLU (edit...I found the photo), it may have been a discussion about the Bellfield collection, it also had the "scout carrier" featured as well. IIRC it has the 13.50 x 20 tyres.
The Firepower example...I would love to find out the history of this one, it has a completely different axle and brake set up to anything else in any of the manuals.....I think it was something that ROF Woolwich put together, as I have not seen any other like it in photos etc. It may have been an experimental set up, using parts of the original brakes acting on a drum and the axletree modified to take the pneumatic tyres and wheels. Here are some close ups of the arrangement, it's possible to see the way it was fabricated to use the "old" style brake system, it all looks to be a bit of a lash up.
......"never seen anything like it in me life".

George

rnixartillery · #17 22-03-13, 18:36

A friend of mine restored the gun for firepower,I'll see if he knows anymore about the history of it.
There were quite a few variations in the conversion to pneumatics between British and Australian workshops,limber conversions are a good example of this.

Rob..................rnixartillery.

George Moore · #18 26-03-13, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

A friend of mine restored the gun for firepower,I'll see if he knows anymore about the history of it.
There were quite a few variations in the conversion to pneumatics between British and Australian workshops,limber conversions are a good example of this.

Rob..................rnixartillery.

That woul be great,
It certaiunly seems something that ROF made up, I certainly have never seen another one like that. A lot of guns were converted prior to 1939, however the BEF had at least three styles of wheels. Strange though the ones fitted with the 24" wheels do not appear, they are either spoked variants or the those with the 20" wheels and wider tyres.
Re the limbers, I only have info on the WW1 and inter-war types. I think the inter war were converted from earlier types by having a "tracor towing attachment" fitted, they still retained the original spoked wheels.

George.

Rob Endersbee · #19 28-03-13, 05:43

Hi Guys,
We have the remains of one of these as our gate guardian at the Merredin Military Museum, had some of the "Modern" tyre adaptors fitted when we recovered it. Will get some photo's over Easter. I know of another more complete example and we have been trying to obtain it for years but it belongs to one of the "going to do it up someday" brigade.

Cheers

rnixartillery · #20 28-03-13, 11:16

Rob,

you have a nice list of Artillery down below, I have an L5 105mm pack howitzer in my collection that has been an ongoing passion to restore as there are very few over here in the UK.I am missing the 'Hand firing gear' if you know anyone who has a spare.
Any pictures of the 6" Howitzer would be great, a friend of mine has just received an unestored example which he intends to restore.

Rob....(yes another one ! )..........rnixartillery.

George Moore · #21 28-03-13, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Rob,

you have a nice list of Artillery down below, I have an L5 105mm pack howitzer in my collection that has been an ongoing passion to restore as there are very few over here in the UK.I am missing the 'Hand firing gear' if you know anyone who has a spare.
Any pictures of the 6" Howitzer would be great, a friend of mine has just received an unestored example which he intends to restore.

Rob....(yes another one ! )..........rnixartillery.

I do have quite a number of photos taken at Woolwich, plus a 1919 manual. Perchance is the one to be restored the one that was at Larkhill, that one was an inter-war type with the 24" tyres and Martin Parry type axletree conversion.
Purely out of interest ???? The rust moth really got to the carriage.

George.

rnixartillery · #22 28-03-13, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Moore

I do have quite a number of photos taken at Woolwich, plus a 1919 manual. Perchance is the one to be restored the one that was at Larkhill, that one was an inter-war type with the 24" tyres and Martin Parry type axletree conversion.
Purely out of interest ???? The rust moth really got to the carriage.

George.

Thats the one George,its in very poor condition.These artifacts should be placed in the hands of preservists BEFORE they are scrap and beyond it !

Rob................rnixartillery.

George Moore · #23 30-03-13, 15:05

Thanks for that, it is a rare one having the suspended stub axle, a la Martin Parry conversion.
I was at Larkhill and it was on the back of a truck ready to be taken away. There is a lot of stuff out in the open just rusting away....such a pity. Still I guess as we dont have enough money to pay our troops and equip them, looking after "old" stuff is not a high priority.

I have one photo of one in service, and I know Woolwich has the manuals.
The photo is I am sure from an excercise in the UK, date and unit unknown.

Best of luck with the restoration.

George.

Tom Badger · #24 02-04-13, 04:56

Some pictures I took of the two 6in 26cwt on display at the RAA museum at North Fort, Manly back in 2003.

Hopefully these are still in the collection in storage at Bandiana...

George, I got one of your Resicast models, nice work again!

George Moore · #25 03-04-13, 16:16

Thanks for the comment.

Well, it always happens, I see from your photos (great and thanks) that the axle assembly is fixed both front and rear. There is a fitting on the axle beam and again on the front housing, both attached to the carriage.
Now I didn't see this on any of the photos I had (bu**er). It makes sense, and would have made the fitting to the kit a lot more positive.

Like I said before, once a thing is complete, all the missing info comes to light.

Glad you like the kit, we are doing WW1 versions as well.

George.

lynx42 · #26 11-04-13, 14:01

Did the Australian Army during WW2 have these British 6 inch guns amongst it's equipment?

Cliff,

I picked this up on Ebay last week.

I guess it came from an Australian gun.

regards Rick.

Mike Cecil · #27 11-04-13, 17:12

Rick,

See my earlier post. The short answer is yes.

The '/L' is the sub-type letter, ie the build standard of the particular weapon. The Brits used an alphabetical sequence, but its rarely, if ever, referred to as part of the nomenclature. (Like a Centurion Mk.5 Type K, or P, or...)

Mike C

Lynn Eades · #28 11-04-13, 22:54

Mike, Are you sure about that? (I am cringing) I think it means "Land" service as opposed to "A" (admiralty) and I forget what the air service was.
See examples. Tony Smith posted the info which included ammunition
I think by the time the Centurion was built a different system was in place. I think the "/L" went into dis-use about mid war (WWII)

(What lesson might I learn from this?....)

Mike Cecil · #29 12-04-13, 00:18

Lynn,

Yes, you may well be correct: I'd based it on the latter period without double checking, so my comments appear to be wrong. Land Service sounds good! The term is also part of the expanded nomenclature of the period, eg 'Ordnance QF 25 Pdr Mark 2 on Carriage, 25 pdr MK.1 Land Service'. The date of this reference is 1940, so right within the period we are talking about.

So, scratch my previous second paragraph - or apply only to later equipment!!

Mea Culpa

Mike C

BSM · #30 05-05-13, 10:07

Re the FAT mentioned earlier as the towing platform for the Aust. 6inch .... herewith an image. Rod
PS: also used in recovery work as a Breakdown (Aust.) No. 3A where it sported a heavy weight steel boom protruding from the rear.