Morris PU: BEF Dunkirk? Unit, registration?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

No, I didn't swap the C8 for a Morris.....it's a scale model. I am desperately trying to finish my Scratchbuilt Morris Commercial PU for our Dutch model club magazine, but I am a little stuck at the moment. I only have a few days left.
The Intention is to dress up the Morris as a Dunkirk vehicle, but I can't seem to find a suitable registration for the truck...I think I can come up with a census number, but what about a unit???

The other question is, did BEF vehicles carry normal headlights? Not black-outs I guess???

period pictures would also help.

Alex

[Rich Payne]

Decent Hi-res photos of BEF softskins are a bit few and far between and I haven't got anything in books really worth scanning.

Morris-Commercials with the BEF often seem to have the Arm of Service marking on its coloured background displayed on a square plate central to the radiator grille, Bridging plate on right-hand mudguard and Divisional Insignia on the left-hand side.

Do you have an idea which unit you'd like to display ?

Hodges and Taylor include details of 1940 AoS markings so that's straightforward to look up. Some Divisional insignia differed from later in the war but I can find illustrations of some of them.

Blackout in 1940 consisted of the lower half of the reflector being painted black and a manilla paper mask inside the glass with a small semi-circular cut-out.

[Ron Pier]

Fancy seeing you on here Rich. When I researched the markings for my Norton Big4 outfit, I came across a model makers magazine. It gave some clear insight to the markings for the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. It also went on to mention that they had Morris 8cwt trucks and scout cars ( Dingos) The only original pictures are obviously in B&W. The marking on the Big4 are a red TT in a black circle, and a white 18 in a coloured square. There is some debate about the colour of the square. Is it black, green or red?? The other B4 markings are, unit and vehicle number. Here is what I did with my PU8/4. With some artistic licence. I have no picture evidence of the PU8/4 with the BEF. So far I've only seen them in North Africa. Not so the PU though, they were definitely at Dunkirk. Ron

[Rich Payne]

Hello Ron, I think that Alex could do worse than use your Morris as an example. I had forgotten that article in 'Army & Navy Modelworld' - I have a poor quality scan which I'll send through to Alex.

As you say, there has been debate about the colour used by 4 RNF but I think that you're correct in using red. This picture of a 50 Div sidecar at Herseaux in 1940 makes it quite obvious that the AoS background cannot be black and is the same tone as the 'TT'

[Keith Brooker]

Some photos of morris PU in the Dunkirk area 1940. Hope these are OK. Photos are from my collection. The first truck photo has TT on it. 2nd photo is a RA unit.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Rich, Ron and Keith,

Thank you very much for your replies. This really helps me a lot! I am hoping to finish the build of the model today and put some paint on it tomorrow. I have indeed decided to dress the Morris up as a truck from 4RNF, 50th Division.


The Norton in Rich' picture shows the "twin T's" in a rounded patch. Was this common in the early stages of the war, compared to the square patch you often see in pictures taken later in the war? Or did it differ from one vehicle to another?

Rich, regarding the blackouts. What colour would the Manilla paper have been? Dark green or black, maybe? Do I understand correctly that only a small half-circular form was left open on the top of the headlight? Or the bottom? When looking at Keith second picture, the lower half od the headlights seems to be a lighter colour? Or is it actually the mirror we are looking at?

thanks guys,

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Rich, Ron and Keith,

Thank you very much for your replies. This really helps me a lot! I am hoping to finish the build of the model today and put some paint on it tomorrow. I have indeed decided to dress the Morris up as a truck from 4RNF, 50th Division.


The Norton in Rich' picture shows the "twin T's" in a rounded patch. Was this common in the early stages of the war, compared to the square patch you often see in pictures taken later in the war? Or did it differ from one vehicle to another?

Rich, regarding the blackouts. What colour would the Manilla paper have been? Dark green or black, maybe? Do I understand correctly that only a small half-circular form was left open on the top of the headlight? Or the bottom? When looking at Keith second picture, the lower half od the headlights seems to be a lighter colour? Or is it actually the mirror we are looking at?

thanks guys,

Alex

[Rich Payne]

There was a nice BEF marked Morris Commercial photo on eBay last week (Ron has seen this one).

Marked up to 145th Brigade from 48th (South Midland Division) and located in Cassel where the brigade held the German advance.

The original print for sale was a reversed image.

[Ian McCallum]

I am not sure from looking at the rear of the vehicle in the foreground that it is a Morris? Both the rear style of the buck and split canvas configuration are identical to that on my WOC1. Rear mudguards style is also identical. Will look out a relevant photo tonight and post it for consideration.

Ian

[Ron Pier]

You could be right Ian. My friend Rory will see if he can work out something from the Z number. He also has the Z number records for the WOC1's if you need them.
The little 8cwt body in slightly different formats was fitted to various vehicles. Morris, Ford, Humber, Chevy etc.
Ron

[Rich Payne]

I would never pretend to be able to identify from a rear-end photo but I'm pretty sure that the census number reads Z392064* Which would seem to place it under the Morris-Commercial contract V3517 (Z3919836 - Z3921632).

[Ron Pier]

Exactly the details Rory just gave me Z3919836-Z3921632 from Contract V3517..... Plus just above the Motorcycle seat at the bottom of tailboard is a welded plate. This was a Morris feature. The bodies weren't suitably supported on the PU chassis and had a tendency to split in this area. Ron

[chrisgrove]

The problem with 4RNF is that 50 Div was a Motor Division and had (at least some) different numbers from a standard Infantry Division. Unless Dick Taylor has produced one in Vol 2 of 'Warpaint' (which I have not yet got), none of my references give the numbers for a 1940 Motor Division, though people seem to agree that 4RNF had 18 on red.
The PU in this pic should have its 20 on green, as representing the Brigade HQ of 144 Infantry Brigade.

Chris

Oops; my first post on here and I expected it to appear much higher up , on Page 1. I expect you can work out which pic I was referring to.

[Rich Payne]

Hello Chris. As you say, I don't think there's much argument about the '18' for 4 RNF as there are plenty of captioned photographic records which clearly indicate the unit, as does the concentration of Norton outfits.

According to Hodges & Taylor, the '20' appeared on brown and would thus indicate 145 Bde who were certainly captured at Cassel.

[chrisgrove]

Hi Rich

Don't know why I went for green - I should have double checked before I went on line!! As you say, HQ 145 Bde, not 144, though my reference was Malcolm Bellis combined with Hodges/Taylor!
Chris

[Ron Pier]

Ian. I've just been sent this picture by my friend Rory. I don't know if you've seen it or if it's been posted before.

A captured WOC1. Ron

[Rich Payne]

Ian, your first picture is Calais. I've just dug out François de Lannoy's 'Dunkerque 1940' (which does include a bit on Calais) and it shows the quay from another direction.



...and look what we've got lurking in the middle...



Is this the shot that you've seen before ?

All these photographs are credited to the Bundesarchiv.

You'll know the picture that follows of course but I thought that you might like to see the period publication that it appeared in.





Rich

[Ian McCallum]

Rich,

Many thanks. Now know where it was and what book it's in, allI have to do now is find one! Thanks also and yes, the quayside shot is the one I remeber from a previous posting. Also not aware of the Motor Cycle article although the WOC1 photo was featured by Bart in his earlier editions of Fighting Vehicles. Anyone got any more photo's out there of a WOC1!!??

Ian

[Rich Payne]

De Lannoy's book can be found in the UK

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Bo...tn%3Ddunkerque

Whether it's worth the £25 odd depends on how fanatical you are about the 1940 campaigns (I am !)

This sequence of pictures is all viewable on-line at the Bundesarchiv :-

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cros...h/_1258156145/

I'm not sure what the procedure is for obtaining high res copies.

Rich

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Rich,

Many thanks. Had a quick attempt to get into the bundesarchiv photos without too much success. However of the 34 photos I did find for Calais 1940, one was of a WOC1. Unfortunately the angle and debris on the bonnet hide any serial number, but its definately a Ford this time.

Ian

[Rich Payne]

Glad to see that you're still finding pictures Ian.It probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the mods split off the WOC1 stuff to a thread of its own.

Do you know if those vehicles in Calais would have been with the Rifle Brigade or KRRCs ?

I have had another look through my bookcase and I think that I've found a Dunkirk picture as well. It's from Pallud's 'Blitzkrieg à l'Ouest' which is rather different from his English language equivalent.



I wonder if the the triangle on the N/S wing is an elongated version of 1st infantry Division ?

The photograph is credited to the French ECP archive. I'm determined to get there one day.

Rich

[Rich Payne]

Originally Posted by Ian McCallum

Hi Rich,

Many thanks. Had a quick attempt to get into the bundesarchiv photos without too much success. However of the 34 photos I did find for Calais 1940, one was of a WOC1. Unfortunately the angle and debris on the bonnet hide any serial number, but its definately a Ford this time.

Ian

Back in November 2009, Ian mentioned that it wasn't possible to read the bonnet serial number. Four years later, a view of the other side of the poor old WOC1 that did its bit in the barricades of Calais has come to light. The table on the bonnet is still in the same place.



The serial looks to be Z4128426 ? No signs of any other markings. It has become clear that there were a fair number of these in Calais.