Track pins

Jon Bradshaw · #1 15-05-09, 04:29

I have another T16 but the pins were wornout so the guy I got it off of removed them all! I have some for a pattern but I need over three hundred pins

for this vehicle. My other carriers have alot of worn pins as well.
Anybody have advice on how to make my own. I was thinking of buying steel rod and cutting it to length but other than welding a washer on the end how would I finish it?
Has anyone made them before?
Is there a jig I could see pictures of to make them?
I was told case hardened steel would work is that too hard or too soft?
Any help would be appreciated.

Aidan · #2 15-05-09, 04:43

Don't you need to harden those pins after you cut them in sections? this is what I read. Aidan

kevin powles · #3 15-05-09, 07:39

hi, i had an idea of using stainless steel to make track pins, harder than steel and no heat treatment required when you have finished making them?.

this a good idea or not?.

Maurice Donckers · #4 15-05-09, 08:13

Stainless steel is not harder ,it is tougher, it will wear very rapid.
In Holland It is possible to get the right diameter of steel rod with the same outside hardening as orriginal , just cut them with a grinder cutting bench , and weld an end cap on both sides .

RichardT10829 · #5 15-05-09, 10:25

would heating normal steel rod up and quenching in oil not harden it ? works on swords

Maurice Donckers · #6 15-05-09, 10:56

It is all not that simpel , you want the inside to be Tough , and the outside hardenned for Wear. But if you heat them just up , and then quench them , they wil deform .
same with track links don`t heat them up cherry hot to get pins out , the links will also change their charackteristics , and wear quicker.
I pressed them one by one out . Had a lot of NOS pins and several failed after some miles , because of the aging of the material . same problem with brake shoe springs they just snap because they get to brittle from aging.

RichardT10829 · #7 15-05-09, 11:21

so it needs to be case hardened bar ? wonder how much that would cost.... i agree with using heat on the tracks too its never a good thing. i have been trying to find out what the meterial % is made up from i know it has manganese in there with the steel (track links).
perhaps this is something that we could all get together and try to sort once and for all, after all worn track and pins will effect us all. I know that staman military are producing brand new sherman chevron tracks so surely we could all get together and produce something. i am going to chase up Vickers Armstrongs for any patterns they may have again.

Jon keep us posted on any results you get for material to use as pins.

Rich

tankbarrell · #8 15-05-09, 11:40

Normal, i.e. mild steel does not have enough carbon to be heat treated, that is why case hardening powders are used as these are carbon based.

You can buy a carbon case hardening steel such as EN32 or a nickel chrome moly such as EN24. Both can be heat treated with the EN24 giving a uniform toughness throughout.

As Maurice said, Stainless steel is not very hard but it does have the advantage of work hardening.

Ron Pier · #9 15-05-09, 12:09

During the course of my motorcycle restorations, I invariably have to harden and temper the ends of the clutch push rods. These are made from silver steel, the ends are heated cherry red and quenched, then heated to straw colour and quenched. How would this process relate to track pins? Would silver steel be to costly? Could the process be used on the whole length of the pin? Ron

RichardT10829 · #10 15-05-09, 12:28

another thought to consider is are the ends not left soft so they can be peened over ?

i have contacted a local Foundry in Durham about track, about 30mins ago,they have just rang me (bloody prompt excelent service !) they have a partner firm with massive military contracts who state this type of track should not be a problem for them to re produce at reasonable costs, but i wont have a reply until after tuesday as the chap is overseas on business........... as a carrier family we should definately pull together and put an end to this problem.

Nigel may give the acurate figures but iam sure the track usually looses a link every 500 miles, they dont last too long at all.

Ron Pier · #11 15-05-09, 14:14

Not according to the NOS pins I have Richard. One end has a fairly large domed mushroom head. The other end has a hole for a split pin, with washer first of course. Ron

RichardT10829 · #12 15-05-09, 15:10

is that not to put the sections of track together ? so a 20 link section would be put together with that type of pin, and each indevidual link within that section is fixed with the end of the pin being peened over as stated ?

Rich

Ron Pier · #13 15-05-09, 16:17

Yep! your right there Richard. I've just been looking at my track, which has a mushroom head on one side and a sort of pressed formed head on the other side. Must have been done in the factory with a large press? I would think that any pin removed in the field would be replaced with a split pinned link pin. Interestingly the 3 foot length of track that I just disassembled had all split pinned pins. That's what through me off track( No pun intended) Ron

Alex Blair (RIP) · #14 15-05-09, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

is that not to put the sections of track together ? so a 20 link section would be put together with that type of pin, and each indevidual link within that section is fixed with the end of the pin being peened over as stated ?

Rich

Richard...
You don't want hard track pins..you want"soft" track pins...You want the pins to wear..not the track..If the pins are harder than the track ,the track will wear and then you WILL be in a world of hurt..Keep the track pins tough ..but not hard..

RichardT10829 · #15 15-05-09, 18:35

agree with your comments Alex but it must be a fine line, too soft and as soon as a hard turn is made "PING". i have a theory discussed at length with an engineering lecturer at local university we agree'd the way forward is hard track pin and track as is but the lugs machined out and threaded to take a soft insert which can be unscrewed and replaced when worn. in theory saves the pin and saves the main body of the cast on the track. problem was we didnt have any examples to see if there would be enough material on the lugs to do this, but it was non the less a good idea in my humble opinion.

Rich

Lynn Eades · #16 16-05-09, 10:05

The track pins with the double heads, are designed so that a few blows with a hammer will cause the heat to fall off, allowing the rest of the pin to be driven out with the track pin punch. This only works on one end, as the heads on each end are different. This pin would then be replaced with the joining pin, that is retained with a washer and split pin.

tankbarrell · #17 16-05-09, 10:05

There are other things to consider in this problem. Manganese track work hardens so the pin holes will not wear as much as might be thought after settling in.
Much of the hole and pin wear is to do with the grit getting in and acting as a grinding paste. Relative hardness is less important than a tough pin.

There is not much material in the link to fit a bush and I would have thought the work involved initially as well as at the point of fitting new bushes would be greater than having new track cast.

Ron Pier · #18 16-05-09, 10:25

Thanks for that explanation Lynn. I was assuming that one end of the pin would have to be hacksawed off. My carrier came to me with perfect track and wheels, and I've never had to remove any so far. Ron

Perry Kitson · #19 16-05-09, 23:26

Some years ago when I was restoring my MK II carrier, I had the same problem with the pins. I had a few NOS pins checked for hardness and they came up at 54-56Rc. The original pins are induction hardened to prevent warping ( oven or flame hardening would produce banana like pins unless they were held in a fixture ) while leaving the center portion tough. The pins are cold headed to shape the end, the same process as making bolts. From the factory, the track sections were cold headed on both ends, with a joining pin with the cotter pin hole to assemble the sections. I have used .4375 dia. Class 60 shafting cut to length and then welded on the heads to replicate the original pins. One last point, T16 pins are slightly shorter than the pins used on UC track, Canadian track anyway.

Perry

Rob Beale · #20 17-05-09, 00:26

I have made new pins for the LP style track using X4140 shafting.
I would have to search out the original note, but it was 'centreless ground' I think?
Anyway they have been on the carrier for probably 10 years now.

several other carrier owners in NZ have used the same material.

I can't comment on forming the head as we don't have the domed end as the pin is held in place with a lead plug.

Rob
LP2 (NZ) MG

horsa · #21 17-05-09, 00:28

Original T-16 pins should be the same length as normal British/Canadian carrier pins. The post war Swiss modified T-16s have milled down track links which are slightly narrower and so used a shorter length track pin. And they made them all as cotter pin type holdings.

Jon Bradshaw · #22 17-05-09, 16:58

Thanks for all the information. I'm afraid I don't have a press to make the proper end for the pin. I guess it will have to have a cotter pin on each end.

Jon

kevin powles · #23 17-05-09, 20:18

Hi, I am curious to know why the swiss army had the track links milled down?, the shorter cotter pins type pins are only 1/2" shorter than standard carrier pins. I have several hunderd of these shorter pins, ideal for welding a washer on the end but little use for putting a cotter pin through on a universal carrier.

RichardT10829 · #24 17-05-09, 21:50

the cotter type pins, are these the ones with the soft ends which you flatten over ?

i wonder if the Swiss army changed the spec of the track for transportation purposes, so they would fit existing trailers / wagons etc etc. i have no doubt the answer will be in Nigels book.... will put my beak back in there and have a look

Lynn Eades · #25 18-05-09, 12:34

Those short pins would probably be great for somebody with an Australian carrier, with lead plugged track.

SDT16 · #26 18-05-09, 16:28

I may have some of the long pins that take the collar with a roll pin through it and the pin. N.O.S.
How many do you need?
Send me an email:
sderen@mac.com

Jon Bradshaw · #27 19-05-09, 23:40

I could weld a washer on the one end. Thought it would look poor.
Ideas on how to make them look better?
I need alot of pins, 350 or more.

Perry Kitson · #28 20-05-09, 01:48

It's a time consuming process, but you could machine up heavier washers with the same profile as the cold headed end, press them on and TIG weld them on the pins. Thats what I did, and they look just like the original pins once they have weathered.

Perry

JTH · #29 20-05-09, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

It's a time consuming process, but you could machine up heavier washers with the same profile as the cold headed end, press them on and TIG weld them on the pins. Thats what I did, and they look just like the original pins once they have weathered.

Perry

Could you do the same thing to pins knocked out of an old section of track? I need to add at least two links to each track on my carrier (too short) and replace a piece of steel rod bent at one end used as a temporary link pin.

Jeff

20387774 · #30 20-05-09, 17:39

I believe what you want to do with the pins is called "case-hardening". If you get the mild steel pins hot in a forge and then remove them and cover them in bone meal, the steel will take carbon from the meal and harden only the outside of the metal. You could mushroom or peen the ends when the steel was untreated, as well as drill a hole on the other end for a cotter pin. Then put them thru the heat process.

John