Finds from a market

[Cory Saunders]

Found these photos at Flinders market. All appear to be taken in Puckapunyal (one of the photos has this written on the back). I've written the inscriptions on the back beneath each photo.


"Geoff Hall, Jack, Ian May"


"Me in my old Jalopy, Pucka 1950"


"Trever [or Treyer] Oneil, Regular army driver"

What year was the last Blitz in use in the Australian Army?

Dave.

[Ryan]

What an awesome find, well done.
As for the last use of Blitz trucks, my guess would be the 1960s.

[Lynn Eades]

My questions are;
What particular body / truck model is the second one. That would be a nice one to own.
Does the last one have wheel adapters?, as that is a non std wheel. I would not have expected that in military service.
Interested to hear from Keith or a Tony (or anyone who knows)
Nice photos. It does feel a bit special when you come upon old photos that are so individual.

[cliff]

2nd photo is a #8 (Aust) gun tractor

1st pic truck on Right I think is a #9 (Aust) Gun Tractor

[Tony Wheeler]

Excellent find Cory, well done. Euan's father found a similar series of photos at Camberwell market last year, also showing gun tractors at what appears to be Pucka. I suspect they're part of the same series. I'll leave it Keith to post them.

Your top pic shows two FGT9s. The one on the left is difficult to identify but the Canadian front fairleads are a giveaway, and I believe the No.9 peaked roof is just visible. The front bumper has been replaced with a late model bumper (small holes).

Middle pic is a CGT8.

Bottom pic is impossible to identify, except to say it's a Chev. Front wheel is a dual with the standard CMP spacer, and the only CMPs fitted with duals in WWII were tippers. However in post war years they were used on Chev No.6 gun tractors sometimes, so given the context of these photos I suspect that's what it may be. The extended mirror arm is also indicative.

[Keith Webb]

These are part of a series of photographs, most likely from the same seller - Euan's father in law found some of the same group of arty tractors but different angles about a year ago at the Camberwell market. I'm fairly sure the one on the left in the top photo is the original one photographed new outside Wesley in 1942 as the ARN was visible in one of Euan's father in law's pics. Both in the first image are FGT No9s.

The second one which Cliff identified is a CGT No8, and the one with the odd looking wheel is most likely a No6 CGT, many of which were re-equipped with the same dual wheels as the tippers.

[David Dunlop]

Some very interesting vehicles in these photos.

You also have a gem there with a few full names of some of the soldiers in the photos. Might be worth the effort to trace them and see if it leads to more information about the photos: When, where, etc..

David

[Tony Smith]

The reference to "Regular Army driver" might suggest that these pics are from either a CMF or Nasho Arty unit on their annual Ex.

[Mike Cecil]

Both 2 Field Regiment and 15 Field Regiment were CMF units operating in Victoria in the late 1940s/1950s/1960s, and both used 'Tractors, Artillery (Aust)' 8 & 9 during annual camps. During the 1950s, the Regular Army field artillery units were using GMC CCKW353 as their deployable artillery tractors, which were then replaced in 1959/60/61 with Studebaker US6 until the International No.1 Mk.1, 2, and 3 came along (then later the 6x6 F1).

One image states 'Pucka 1950' which would fit with either of the CMF units mentioned. CMF and Regular army units stationed elsewhere used training facilities in their home states, so I think it is pretty much confirmed that we are looking at 2 or 15 Fd Regiment. 2 Field operated out of Batman Avenue Depot and with batteries in country centres such as Colac. 15 Field were in Dandenong. Note the absence of markings on the vehicles, and the gloss finish. The absence of markings is indicative of vehicles drawn from the 'pool' for an annual camp. The gloss finish is indicative of post-war repainting in BDG gloss.

The two units were amalgamated in the late 1960s(?) to become 2/15 Fd Regt, and still later, with 10 Medium Regiment (based in Geelong) to become 2/10 Medium Regiment - something of a misnomer as it was actually a composite regiment with both field (105mm How)and medium (5.5inch then M198 155mm How) batteries.

Mike C

[bill m]

Just diverting the original topic a little,
CMF 23 Battery 2/15 FD Regt. M2A2 105mm Howitzers was in Frankston Vic during the late 1970s and 80s. I was a gunner at the Frankston depo then. Thanks for the CMF info Mike.
Is there any official history on CMF units available?
Great photos Cory!
cheers
Bill.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Bill,

So 2/15 was still 'distributed' across a number of centres? I think HQ Bty was at Batman Ave for the amalgamated Regt, with Dandenong one of the centres (as, apparently, was Frankston - thanks for that, I'll add it to my list)

Don't know of any unit histories of the post-war CMF units.

Mike C

[Dave Mills]

Hello Mike,
Interesting to read the CMF 2/15 threads. In 1978 HQ Battery of 2/15 Fd Regt was located at the Dandenong Depot, I enlisted there originally as a Signaller in 1978 with 2 Fd BTY at Batman Avenue and 23 Fd BTY at Frankston, must have enlisted about the same time as Bill?

1979 was the year that the Regiment raised two gun detachments attached to 2 Fd BTY but located at HQ BTY due to dwindling recruitment at the Bateman Avenue Depot, I transferred from Sigs to Guns and was attached to 'Echo' 2 Fd Battery as a Gun Number manning the M2A2 105mm Howitzer.

In 1979 2/15 reorganised and moved the HQ at Dandenong into 2 Fd BTY and 2 Fd BTY into the HQ BTY at Bateman Avenue and then set about retraining the Sigs to be gunners and gunners to be Sigs.

The once proud Arty Regiments no longer exist and are now issued with 81mm tubes and are called a "Light Battery" and there is only one on them and they are now attached to the Infantry. The gunners are still referred to as gunners and can still wear the White lanyard.

In reference to the photos, yes, regular army staff had been posted to the Regiments to bolster the training and so had been drivers. In the 70's and 80's the regiments kept their vehicles in the depots and only drew on storage vehicles if required, mainly the landrover or RAEME wrecker. We however had not been permitted to permanently mark the vehicles with our Regimental emblems instead using the Tactical Sign which was removed in the bush.

Great to see that people are still talking about the old Regiments.

Dave.

[Mike Cecil]

Interesting Dave: I spent a not insignificant amount of my youth at Batman Ave Depot when my father was BSM Q Bty. Before that, he'd been BSM P Bty and also spent some time as BSM of the battery based at the Colac Depot (was that F Bty? Can't remember!).

It apparently had an effect: I've always had an interest in artillery and CMPs as a result!

Mike C

[Dave Mills]

Hi Mike, what a small world it is and just amazing how we are bought together by the MLU and our love for the older military vehicles and a couple of photos of gunners on Pucka range the place when you could have your eyes filled with dust and your feet in 6 inches of mud at the same time.

It was devastating when the Batman Avenue Depot fell to make way for a toll way through Melbourne. Can still remember the Horse Artillery plaster cast badge on the drill hall wall as well as the stables being used to house the gun stores in. At the other end of the asphalt parade ground sat the Engineers and Water Transport units, both CMF.

Your father sounds like he was a life long gunner, I know how hard it is to rise to the standard of BSM and hold the position, it is a very elite club of knowledgeable NCO's the only club in the world that you rise to through hard competitive merit based selection. Still call the Battery Guide posting as the best ever. I had 24 years in Artillery and still get shivers when I hear the guns fire on Pucka Range from my home in Seymour. I could shoot off a few names of my early BSM's and BG's who had served in the lettered Battery's prior to the numbered ones but do not have their permission to publish them on the world stage.

Hope the faces and names in the pictures can be traced to their owners.

Cheers,

Dave.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Dave Mills

Hello Mike,

....


The once proud Arty Regiments no longer exist and are now issued with 81mm tubes and are called a "Light Battery" and there is only one on them and they are now attached to the Infantry. The gunners are still referred to as gunners and can still wear the White lanyard.

...

Dave.

Canada has seen an ebb and flow in the artillery regiments too. In the 1950's the regiments had towed 75mm, 105mm and 155mm pieces. Then they mechanized with M109s. Heady times. The airborne gunners had little Italian guns with a distinctive muzzle brake. The reserves kept the 105s for skills training and saluting, these eventually were life-extended with longer barrels and upgrades. Somewhere in all this there was a British-made 105, but never very many of them. (Rob Love keeps finding bits and pieces of Canadian-made 105s in junkyards around the home base of the artillery.)

Just as the Cold War ended the Guns found themselves without much of a job, just like the armoured corps. Units were cycled through Cyprus as infantry battalions, and then smaller and smaller elements deployed to exciting places like Bosnia. When the Airborne Regiment was disbanded by a determinedly unsympathetic government (spit), there was no place for the air transportable guns. Then the M109s were parked. The regulars tooks back the 105s.

Conventional thinking was stood on its head as other specialist functions across the forces were reassigned. The pioneers in the infantry battalions were shut down and their role given to the already busy combat engineers. One of the regular recce squadrons was intentionally undermanned to provide manning numbers for intelligence units. The "mortar dogs" in the battalions were reassigned to the companies, and their role assigned to the artillery.

The arrival of Afghanistan gave the guns a reprieve when someone decided they really needed to reach out and touch badguys at long range. A handful of new US-made M777 155s were acquired and put to very good use. But for close-in work, it was 81mm mortars fired by artillery-men in gun pits. Maybe not a traditional role, but still welcome.

[bill m]

Thank you gentlemen for the extra info,
Dave, I was in around 1978/79-1981, a bit hazy on the details.
I was 17 and not the most memorable soldier
I still keep in touch with Tanky, one of the drivers who is coming up to 45 years of service this year.
cheers
Bill.

[Dave Mills]

Thanks Bill,

Know Tanky well, pass on my regards next time you are talking to him.

Dave.

[bill m]

Will do!
cheers
Bill.

[Wolfy]

Great photos, love this pattern of body on the CMP