to Champ or not to Champ......

[David DeWeese]

Hi,

I was offered these two Austin Champs locally for 2K for the pair. One "runs" and the other is for parts.

Should I stay away, or?.....

[gordon]

There are more parts in a Champ back axle than that whole '34 Dodge dump, David

You might want to rescue them, park them in a corner, and sell them on, but that's as far as I would go.

[Mike Cecil]

The Pommie vehicle devotees would say 'go for it', but being a practical CMP and jeep oriented person, and with a vague recollection that back axles are a perennial problem, I'd heed Gordon's advice!!

Just did an article on the Austin Champ for the MVPA 'Army Motors'. They were not a popular vehicle in the Australian Army which procured 401 (400 under contract, one damaged one from the original trials). Very complicated vehicle to work on, and parts would be something of a challenge.

Mike C

[Lynn Eades]

Didnt I see a fine Dodge laying around in the back ground at some point in your postings? (are they too common?)

[aj.lec]

The person to ask on here is Richard Coutts-Smith
He has one

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

They do have some good points, and I have never regretted going down the Champ path.
From the pics 2k is about $1500 too much.
Your main supply of parts would be in the UK, which is going to factor heavily in the cost of parts. Nearly everything is still available, mostly NOS, some repo.
Rusty sills are a common problem.
The motors are a B40 Rolls Royce (made under licence by Austin) and are generally a long lasting unit, fully waterproofed, which also adds a little complication.
Torsion bar suspension all round, which provides a comfy ride, but there are a lot of moving parts to look at during a rebuild.
Transfer case is integral with the back diff, it is not of the High/low variety, but supplies a change in direction: giving 5 forward and 5 reverse gears.
Most back diff problems were resolved during service life ( I see they are military, not the rarer civilian model).
I could go on for sometime, but I will spare you. Yes they are a complicated little beasty
but I imagine a right hand drive Rolls Royce powered convertible will help you stand out from the crowd, but there will be a fair bit of work involved.

If you have the vehicle No. (on Brass plate, upper firewall under the hood, passenger side,) you should get a little info from the register:
http://www.austinchamp.com/
Not to mention a full history of the Champ in general.

Just to show what waterproofing was for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VLTlMr7qYk

Let us know what you decide.
Rich.

[Mike Cecil]

Richard,

A sensible answer for David to work with! Nicely done. My comment on parts is, of course based upon having to source internationally: no 'quick fix' when you are in the USA.

Was I right with regard to the back axle? What were the problems they had in service?

Mike C

[David DeWeese]

Thanks everyone for the great information!

I also thought 2k was a bit high, but I didn't know for sure...

I think I will stay away from them for now, but they sure are cute!

Thanks again,
David

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

David,
A Champ was the last vehicle I ever thought I would own, now my only regret is not buying one sooner, go figure....
(This is not a reflection on your decision, purley musing on my behalf)
If you have the oppourtunity to get the vehicle numbers, could you pass them on to me. I would like to pass them on to the Champ Register if they are not currently shown as still in existence.

Mike,
The head of the Champ project was asked to go to the US and explain the diff issue that was giving problems to the vehicles on trial there. He was adamant that all the problems were due to lack of oil, either due to poor maintenance, or possibly the sealing of the PT0 cover on top of the back diff. The studs were long enough for the proposed winch fitment (which never happened), and a little long for the cover supplied. This minor problem could be fixed with an extra washer under each nut.

Totally unrelated to his report, I'm sure, back in the UK orders were issued to replace all crown wheel bolts with a higher tensile grade, and all driving flanges on the hubs modified for a further three bolts.

My personal opinion is that despite a long and expensive gestation, the Champ was pushed into full production before the results of the extensive trials were acted upon, in an attempt to save the British Fighting Vehicle concept which was rapidly losing favour. As a result, the problems plaguing the early production Champs gave it an unenviable reputation that still exists today.

Rich.

[Lynn Eades]

Rich, I thought their main problem was rust and corrosion. I was going to say also "over complicated", but that is just another British identifier.

[JackM]

I've just finished a complete restoration of one of these (#1824)

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread...tin-Champ-1824

.. and I emphasise Richard's point about complexity. Not only are they complex, but they are not simple to maintain, which compounds the problem.

The rear diff is the usual talking point, but I suspect this fault was the result of driver error/stupidity (call it what you will), combined with a post Service lack of lubricant. I found one rear diff which had the pinion teeth worn to fine points and a sludge mixture coating the interior of the carrier, which apart from the sludge, was an oil free zone.

It is a fine vehicle if looked after but it takes more looking after than a normal military vehicle should.

David - the one you've shown us looks to be remarkably complete, but I echo the others who have commented that the price is far too high.


Jack

[David DeWeese]

Thanks Richard for your input and Jack for the link to your Champ restoration! Obviously you both know your way around an Austin Champ.

Price is the main factor at this point. Don't want to insult anybody with a low-ball offer, but the owner needs to be educated on what he has, and what it is really worth.

I will get the serial numbers from both, and post them. The story is that someone bought five of these surplus from Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas many years ago. I've seen another listed for sale in Central Texas, so it may be one of the five.

Lynn, forgot to repond to your question from post #4: No Dodges on the property that I saw. The truck next to the Champ was a late-50's Ford.

Thanks again, David

[Lynn Eades]

Sorry David, I meant one in the back ground, in a photo you posted while you were doing the C8, at one stage.

[David DeWeese]

Hi Lynn,

I've had quite a few Dodge military trucks at my shop, but sold all of them except my 1934 KH31 Dump truck.

The '34 restoration will start this fall when things cool down here...hopefully.

Thanks, David

[Mike Cecil]

Richard,

Thanks for the explanation re the back axle: strange how once a problem is identified, it lingers in the memory, whereas the 'fix' doesn't seem to. I've certainly learnt something.

I remember providing Malcolm H the list of the 400 Aussie champ chassis/engine numbers many years ago. A careful examination showed there were a few 'repeats' in the sequence, probably where the Army clerks had transcribed the figures incorrectly. I never have found the '401' (the trials vehicle's) chassis number, just its registration. The Humber 1 ton was trialled at the same time: that vehicle went back to the UK, but the damaged Champ was retained for some reason, and placed on ledger transfer to Army from Dept of Supply.

Mike C

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Lynn,
I guess they rust the same as any 60 year old open top that is left out in a paddock. The sills are do tend to be be rust prone though, as well as the battery compartment/s of course. Ok, around the wheel arches can go as well.....and the fuel tank.....

Jack,
Nice to have another Champee at MLU, think that makes Four. It would be remiss of me not to mention that you have a standing invitation to all Australian Champ Camps. Usually around Easter, 2014 will be near Mansfield in Vic.

Mike,
according to Gus Gowers (Champ Enigma authour) about Fifty of the 400 still remain in "active preservation".
Rich.

[David DeWeese]

Originally Posted by gordon

There are more parts in a Champ back axle than that whole '34 Dodge dump, David

You might want to rescue them, park them in a corner, and sell them on, but that's as far as I would go.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.

Jack, I sat down and carefully read through all your restoration posts on HMVF tonight until about page 6, then I honestly developed a cold sweat of sorts!

I don't have the will, time or money to invest in the efforts to put into a new Champ project. They are very cool vehicles, but one has to REALLY want to restore a vehicle to see it through to the end....

Having said all this, if anyone want these Champs I will do my best to convince the owner to lower the price to a reasonable level, and get them into the right hands...

Thanks, David

[JackM]

Originally Posted by David DeWeese

Jack, I sat down and carefully read through all your restoration posts on HMVF tonight until about page 6, then I honestly developed a cold sweat of sorts!

I don't have the will, time or money to invest in the efforts to put into a new Champ project. They are very cool vehicles, but one has to REALLY want to restore a vehicle to see it through to the end....

David,

I was lucky that we have a small team of like minded folk - all retired - who have a collection of skills. I would not have attempted the rebuild on my own, as I don't have the knowledge or skill base required.

At one stage some years ago, I too vowed never to have anything to do with these British nightmares, but the opportunity presented itself, we were looking for a project and the team was willing.

I'm glad we gave it a go, but these machines are not for the faint of heart. There are any number of very good reasons, why these vehicles lasted only around ten years in British Army employ, despite the setup costs and why no other Army seems to have bought them in quantity - except for our 401.



Jack

[David DeWeese]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyKBI...ature=youtu.be

[JackM]

Good on you, David - you clearly relish a challenge.

I was surprised by the (rust) condition of the vehicle - it seems to be in very good nick apart from the rear seat base, which won't be too hard to repair. I think my blog describes the repair I did on my seat base.

I was also surprised that the vehicle started so robustly on 12v - could the starter motor have been re-wired ?

Good steering wheels though, are not that easy to find. Almost everything you need can be obtained from the UK spares folk - though you'll pay a hefty price, if you need their stuff. How was the steering wheel on the second Champ ?

What is your plan to repair this vehicle - will you start on it straightaway ?

You might want to check the Champ Owners Club site, which includes a rudimentary forum

http://www.austinchamp.com/

I looked for your vehicle # here ...

http://www.austinchamp.com/03%20Regi...dex/CT2001.htm

... but couldn't find it. If you get in touch with the forum organisers, they will be happy to add both numbers to the list.

If you need any help, let us know - although you seem to have made a very good start.


Jack

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Well done David.
You are in for an interesting time.
While a 24volt system in general, the ignition is actually 12v, gives more reliable starting, which is pretty evident from your clip.
FYI, the jack ( a surprising extra) fits across the transmission tunnel behind the front seats, along with the starting handle.
I would suggest inspecting the 3 round water jacket plates on the block behind the generator, they can eat out from the inside and let go with no warning.

This crowd in Tulsa:
http://www.khakicorpsimports.com/spares.htm
stock a lot of B series parts, Thermostats is one to take note of as they are quite unusual and hard to get at times. Most of the electrics are the same across the range of vehicles.
Most of the Champ fraternity is very helpful, so when in doubt, ask.

Just to give you something to look forward to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH6MtkUTmtI
The screeching sound heard occaisionally as the Champs hit the water is the fan declutching, a neccessary design feature as the fan is mounted on the crankshaft.

Best of British luck to your resto!!
Rich.

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Courtesy of Stuart at the Champ Register:

Chassis No: WN1-2380
Army reg: 23 BE 80
Engine No: 4222
Date into Service: 1st April 1953 when received from Austin at the 31st B Vehicle Depot Church Broughton, part of the 3rd Vehicle Group HQ, Church Broughton in Derbyshire and given Receipt Voucher: CBR/R/3 (Note: It was one of four Champs delivered under this RV number)
Struck Off: 8th May 1968 from BAOR (British Army of the Rhine) - This is one of the last Champs to leave service - 2 or 3 years after most had been removed.
Sold: Probably at auction in Monchengladbach a few months later.

BAOR service explains the low slung reflector at the back.
Interesting to see if the original motor is still fitted.
Rich.

[David DeWeese]

Thanks Jack and Richard for the very helpful information! I'm sure I will be begging for more of your Champ wisdom often.

Jack: That starter does crank over the engine rather fast for a 24v starter running on just 12v. The 24v charging system appears to be still intact, but the previous owner had been running the Champ on just the one 12v battery since he has owned it. It should have boiled that one battery within minutes of running if the original 24v system was working properly. Will check it all soon.

The steering wheel on the other Champ is not much better than the one on this one....I will figure something out to repair it.

The plan is to repair the brakes and do a cosmetic restoration only, at least for now.

Richard: Thank You for finding the history on this Champ! It's certainly has travelled a long way from home, hasn't it?

Looks like your group is putting those Champs through their paces in the video...and it also appears they are taking it well! They look to be very rugged vehicles, but this one will never see any off-road use.......unless I win the lottery and can afford to repair it.

Oh, and engine is original to the vehicle..

Thanks again!
David

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

A couple of last comments and I will leave you in peace.
The indicators on the windscreen frame are original, can't say I have ever seen any here in OZ.
Appears from the pics that the previous owner has done a lovley job making the front bumper straight - they are supposed to be bent inwards at the centre.
You made mention of the rec'd fuel tank, is the bash plate among your spares?

Pretty normal to still have the original engine, but neat all the same !

You could join the Austin Champ Owners Club ( has the rather doubtful acronym of A COC), the award winning Champ World magazine is well worth the subscription.

Rich.

[Keith Webb]

And you should get the 2012 Corowa DVD with a segment on Richard's Champ showing how to drive backwards.

[David DeWeese]

Thanks Richard and Keith for the reply!

Picked up the other Champ this weekend. Was a 6-hour round trip, but I consider that a fairly 'local' haul for here in Texas.

The second one was a parts donor for the first, but still has potential as a restoration project if someone was really motivated. It is also fairly rot-free except for the battery box. There are no brass data plates or engine tag present on this one. Is there somewhere else to look for identification numbers?

"Bubba" was definitely smoking something strong when he decided to turn his modified front bumper into a muffler on this Champ.

The second one appears to have been disabled for some time. Had two Willard-brand batteries installed... I think they have been out of business since the early 60's.

At least the first Champ I picked up now has a new sun-baked buddy to keep it company, although it doesn't look too willing to play at the moment....

Thanks, David

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Lots of good bits still left on your donor vehicle, I think it will prove invaluble.
I assume the front bumper was also used as a portable Barbie Plate ( not sure what you call them in Texas) for cooking sausages and steak, it would certainly get hot enough.
Some Champs have a number stamped on the top front of the chassis behind the bumper, however this appears to be just a manufactures number and has no relation to the number of a completed vehicle.
Rich.

[Mike Cecil]

Richard,

It's a GRILL ..... one BBQ's on a Grill in this fair country: BBQing is the action, the Grill is the instrument on which one does the action. (Confused??) And gas does NOT come in bottles .... in the USA you obtain 'propane in a propane tank..' (Go figure....)

Mike 'I have so much to learn' C

[David DeWeese]

A grill is used to fast-cook meat, a smoker is used to slow-cook meat, but it is only after applying the thick tomato and molasses-based BBQ sauce that it becomes barbecue.

If you grill a chicken, it's grilled chicken. If you slow cook a chicken in a hard wood fired smoker, it's smoked chicken... BUT, if you apply barbecue sauce to the chicken, well then it is barbecued chicken!

So, in Texas barbecue is a noun, verb and adjective!

Do I get an award for hi-jacking my own thread!

Thanks, David

[Mike Cecil]

Such a true statement: 'I have so much to learn'!! ..... but then Texans ARE a different breed to the northern folk, eastern folk ... well, the rest of the country, really.

So David, when are you turning on the Barbie for Aussie visitors to sample the oh, so sickly sweet molasses based BBQ sauce???? (Yes, you get the award!)

Mike C (who still admits to having much to learn...)