CMP's in Plain Clothes

[Pete Ashby]

Here are four photos of CMP's in civilian use, all photos have been supplied by Neil Randel who collects vintage transport photos.
Enjoy

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wonder if the owner would be interested in seeing some/all of his collection in print in due course?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
No3

Pete,
This F60S LAAT-1, manufactured August 8th, 1944 shown in use by a bus company, was subsequently bought by Preston Isaac, around 1974, thought I recognised the rego.

Richard

[Pete Ashby]

David

I own the prints; Neil kindly passes any CMP related stuff onto me.

The prints are not marked in any way and will have been picked up at boot sales and collectors fairs from all over the south and west of England. I don't have a problem with you using them. I have a number of other photos you may be interested in of persevered CMPs.

Regards

Pete

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
No4

This HUP is a Dutch truck - brandweer means fire brigade in Dutch.

Thanks for sharing these pics, Pete!

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thank you Sir! If anyone did not know, any Canadian WW2 photos are out of copyright now compared of course with the UK and other countries. The fact that these photos are not marked is excellent news as trying to sort out copyright has driven me to distraction at times!

[Pete Ashby]

This HUP is a Dutch truck - brandweer means fire brigade in Dutch.

Hanno.... and there was me thinking it was a kind of Dutch beer

Glad you like the pics

Pete

[servicepub (RIP)]

David,
Just to correct your earlier statement - any WWII CROWN copyright photos are now free of copyright. This does not apply in those cases where the photo was taken during the war by an individual whose job was other than an official army photographer. A small point but one that needed to be made.

[chris vickery]

I have always thought it to be an interesting point of fact, that as surplus vehicles, cmps have an entirely different history, but one that should be told as well.
Many of our trucks etc. became something else and served a "new" life after their service during the war.
I recently saw a program that feature the circus, I believe Barnum Bailey or Ringling Bros. post war using a train of 3 tonners to move their show around. It was in Western Canada in the 1950's.
Just a thought, but I know I'd like to see more pics of post war cmps in their respective livery.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Clive...it would appear that the National Archives advised incorrectly since they said that as WW2 photos were '1949 and earlier' that they were free of copyright. In respect of National Archives of Canada photos copyright has expired, but they request that the photographer or artist (if known), the NAC and copy negative number is set out in any acknowledgement.

I will have to check further, but assume at the moment that 75 years applies?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

I think that it is a stretched F15 the Chassis has a chunk welded in the frame.. and is sitting at a gas station outside Perth Ontario..I stop when I go by but have never seen the place open when I'm going by..Late nights or early mornings..once or twice a year..
Don Dingwall would know what it is..
Maybe he'll jump in...
Nice addition for Gordons Blower up in Scotland..

[chris vickery]

I would be most interested in more info on this piece. Judging from the pic the body looks in amazing condition.
A must have if available for sale.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I've talked with the owner of this truck. The sheet metal is excellent as it gets a new coat of red and yellow paint every few years. One oddity is that the rear axle has been replaced with a front one giving it 4 wheel hydaulic-assisted steering. When I spoke with him, it was not for sale and he wasn't much interested in those of us who would re-militarize (wordcheck on that last, please) old CMP's.

Another quest for those in south eastern Ontario is a 12 cab Chev 15 cwt in Prince Edward County...go south on Highway 49 from Highway 401 towards Picton. Immediately over the 'skyway' bridge turn right (west) and about 5 kms and you'll find it. Once again it receives regular coats of royal blue paint and is cosmetically perfect, except for the log lifting gear on the front and dual civy tires on the back axle. This guy would sell if you could provide him with another piece of machinery that could do what this thing does, which you can't short of many $$$$.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Hanno.... and there was me thinking it was a kind of Dutch beer

You're quite right Pete, after a couple you probably would have a hard time to discern between Brand Bier and brandweer anyway

Keep 'm coming...

Cheers!
Hanno

[Tony Smith]

I recently had a chance to look at a Ford F30 CMP in New Zealand that had a Dealer's name plate on the engine cover. While it's probably rare that such a handy souvenir would remain on a truck for 60 years,what makes this unusual is that the dealer's address is in London (England, I presume, not Ontario )
How rare would would it be for a surplus vehicle dealer to ship a truck half way round the world to a country where there were already plenty of surplus trucks going cheap? Could an English buyer have come to NZ to buy up surplus trucks and sold a few here and taken the rest home?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The answer is that The Ministry of Supply handled all such disposals, of British, Canadian and US vehicles. Now, we know that they auctioned off thousands and punters and dealers bought up ad hoc from auctions. However 6,000 Chevrolet and GMC vehicles were sold direct to General Motors Limited under the "SMMT Scheme" which basically allowed the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders the right to acquire and re-sell vehicles that the companies normaly handled. Vauxhall Motors had huge quantities of Cauxhall cars and Bedford trucks, though there is no evidence yet that they refurbished them at Luton..they may have handled some at Hendon until Vauxhall moved out in 1947 otherwise they farmed the work out, e.g. to Marshalls of Cambridge. Fords used Lincoln Cars Limited mainly for ex-WD Carriers and ex-military V-8 refurbishment under M of S contracts. They also used it seems Sydney Allards' company Adlards Limited in London and probably a host of other companies.

Another aspect to eb taken into account is the wartime and post-war refurbishment programme for the M of S. This included military depots, plus Vauxhalls at Dunstable, GM Limited at Cleckheaton, and various other companies plus M of S contractors such as the delaers just mentioned.

I am conjecting here that some of the contracting dealers such as Pride & Clarke Limited of south London and another I just found, East Putney Motor Works Limited of the same general area, plus another compnay that apprently has tale to tell, LONDON AND SUBURBAN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES (BRIXTON) LIMITED, were involved in refurbishment contracts and with war's end those vehicles were not required for further military service. The result was that these companies sold unrefurbished and refurbished vehicles, and to anyone anywhere!

I would just mention here that the M of S effectively purchased vehicles and components that they had just disposed of, for further service in the Mid-east, Far East and Europe. We believe that London and Suburban refurbished C15TAs that were dumped for the Malayan Emergency. This seems to confirm that many post-war used WW2 vehicles were either refurbished in military establishments or by civilian companies and that the disposal, refurbishment and acquisition programmes were all piecemeal.

Turning back to the civilian companies, we know that by 1948 there were very enterprising overseas guys who saw a way of making money back home! Canada and the US had repatriated all vehicles that they wanted and as we know, some came back again to be supplied to UNRRA, foreign governments, etc. However "agents" if I can use that term, purchased in essential foreign currency vehicles and huge quantities of ex-M of S parts and components that were then shipped to Canada, Alaska, Australia, India, NZ, Egypt etc. As regards components, obviously CMP parts say would be relevant throughout the world! I have heard of refurbished vehicles being shipped around the world from England and the photo of the plate seems to confirm that this was the case.

The "Job Number" would suggest a Ministry of Supply contract. This could have been a civilian-refurbished truck that was demobbed or a "dealer job" that was shipped off subsequently. The lack of a M of S code to indicate the refurbishing facility and a number suggests that it is the latter case here. In other words this was a post-war civilian refurb that the M of S sanctioned as a vital export.

I would also like to consider whether there were any post-war "donations" to Australia and NZ of military vehicles for their own armed forces although Holden had a massive refurbishment programme for ex-military vehicles for post-war use and demob.

[Lars Ulvestad]

I have a 12 page leaflet from "Premier Group" showing a large selection of the surplus vehicles they had for sale - probably in the late forties - of British, Canadian and US origin.

I will post scans of the leaflet in a new thread

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have just found the Pride & Clarke, or as we used to say "Slide and Shark" advertisement. They had 250 trucks at the time to sell...Ford & Chevrolet # 12 Cab 3-ton, and Ambulance bodied, C15A and F15A G/S, C8A HUP, and M-C, Guy, Chevrolet and Ford Gun tRactors, plus Guy 30-cwt 4 x 4, Guy 15-cwt 4 x 2, Fordson W0T2 and Bedford 15-cwt. Hire Purchase finance was available, as was delivery by rail. The C15A/F15A trucks had been resprayed according to the owner of the advert. How about a C60L G/S for £135????

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward

Another aspect to eb taken into account is the wartime and post-war refurbishment programme for the M of S. This included military depots, plus Vauxhalls at Dunstable, GM Limited at Cleckheaton, and various other companies plus M of S contractors such as the delaers just mentioned.

David,
These were Army Auxillary Workshops (AAW), often they were main dealers, but also small garages and motor engineers. They numbered about 200.

Richard

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Richard, thanks mate..I remembered that I had this information:


"Under the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Regulations, a code was stamped on all reconditioned engines so that any defective units or assemblies could be traced to their source. A code reference number consisting of symbols, indicating the repairer, followed by numerals indicating the month and year of overhaul.

The following reference letters had been allotted to workshops and commands [by 1944]:

COMMAND WORKSHOPS, ROYAL ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS:
ALDERSHOT: ALD/-
CATTERICK: CAT/-
HIGH WYCOMBE, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: HWB/-
MILL HILL [LONDON] MHL/-
BOVINGTON: BOV/-
CHILWELL: [Central Ordnance Depot] CHL/-
BICESTER: BIC/-
LINWOOD: LIN/-
GREENFORD/- GRE/-
DONNINGTON: DON/-

R.C.E.M.E. WORKSHOP, BORDON [Hampshire]: BOR/-
G.M.C., CLECKHEATON: G.M.C./-
ROLLS-ROYCE LIMITED: RRN/-
VAUXHALL MOTORS LTD., DUNSTABLE^: VMD/-
SELF-CHANGING GEARS LIMITED: SCG/-
DAVID BROWN LTD., HUDDERSFIELD: DBH/-
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY REPAIRERS, OTHER THAN THE ABOVE*: MS/-
WORKSHOP DETACHMENT, R.E.M.E., D.H. WICKHAM AND CO., WARE: DWW/-
WORKSHOP DETACHMENT, R.E.M.E., L.P.T.B., ACTON: LPTB/-
COMMAND WORKSHOPS, R.E.M.E. OTHER THAN THE ABOVE:
NORTHERN COMMAND NOR
SOUTHERN COMMAND SOU
EASTERN COMMAND ECO
WESTERN COMMAND WES
SCOTTISH COMMAND SCT
LONDON DISTRICT LON
NORTHERN IRELAND DISTRICT NID

*^ Vauxhall Motors Limited acquired land in Dunstable in 1938 [Luton News] as the precursor to building a new truck plant, Luton apparently having logistical problems being unable to cope with expansion. However, the plan did not proceed until the Ministry of Supply authorised the building of a new ‘shadow factory’ in Dunstable, possibly from 1940 for the building of the Vauxhall Model A22 Heavy Infantry Tanks, and other war work. This factory then turned to the rebuilding of military trucks under MofS contracts, though this was on a separate site from the Dunstable plants of AC-Sphinx and Delco-Remy & Hyatt. It was this site that was to become in the next decade the new Bedford truck plant: further land adjacent to the wartime works was acquired by Vauxhalls and work began in 1953, with the first Bedford trucks being produced for 1955 Model Year in 1954.

D.Ds.M.E. of Commands were to allot a serial number to each Command workshop in their Command which used the above reference letters. The appropriate number was to be stamped on repaired assemblies immediately following the reference letters, e.g. NOR/4/- that would indicate, say, Scorton workshops. The standard position for the code reference numbers on engines was agreed with the Ministry of Supply. In the case of other engines or assemblies where no special position was specified, the reference number was to be stamped adjacent to the makers’ serial number. E.g. AEC were to be stamped on the offside of the engine at the front end of the cylinder block."

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The following reference letters had been allotted to workshops and commands [by 1944]:

COMMAND WORKSHOPS, ROYAL ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS:
EASTERN COMMAND ECO

David,
I can confirm to you that 14 Command Workshops REME at Ashford, Kent, was assigned the code ECO2. Although over the years its name changed to 44 Command Workshops, then 44 District Workshops and finally ABRO Ashford before its closure in 1996, we still marked overhauled assemblies with ECO2. Just recently I was working on some Cadillac engines from a M5A1 Stuart only to find the familiar ECO2 on them.
I had the pleasure of working in the above establishment for 22 years up until its final end.

Richard

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
No3

I have been idly trawling the MLU pages with Ballard looking over my shoulder and we believe this truck is Brian Kitcher's. There were three: JUD 51, 52, and 53; Brian has JUD 52 we think.

All three still exist.

R.

[Pete Ashby]

Richard

I think this is your mate's LAA, JUD 53

Pete

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
I think this is your mate's LAA, JUD 53

Ah, most likely. Brian called today; IIRC he said there were 5 of them at the bus depot. Regrettably they would seem; or Brian's at least, to have had the apprentices properly sand them down, as you do, before painting in the bus company livery so the original markings were gone.

The up-side is that a proper job was made of the paint work, and with regular re-painting in civvy service the metal work has been excellently preserved he says.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

1950s film of Dutch Fire Brigade training - note the CMP tanker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q8vlfuMKyA

H.

[Keith Webb]

That's cool, Hanno. Thanks for sharing it.



That pig really didn't want to be saved, did it?

Is the Dutch word for Fire Brigade (Brandweer) made from two words?

Interesting Dodge conversion too.

[gjamo]

Hay lifter.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

That's cool, Hanno. Thanks for sharing it.

Not often one can see Dutch CMPs on film, which is why I posted it here.

Is the Dutch word for Fire Brigade (Brandweer) made from two words?

Yes: brand = fire and weer = defense. The Dutch language makes use of a lot of contractions, hence brandweer.


H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ford F30 LAAT in civvy service, tow truck of course

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2786225...in/photostream

[lynx42]

I have just received two great books put out by Theo Barten & Maarten Swarts called 'Frituur Zorro' (volume 1 & 2).

These are both about 175 pages thick and have hundreds of Second Life WW2 vehicles with most photos taken before the 1980's.

I recomend them to everyone with an interest in military vehicles.

(Some of the translations are a little strange but all in all good books.)

www.theobarten-infographics.nl
info@theobarten.nl

Regards Rick.