Regina Rifles Regiment

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jim;

T.O.S. - taken on strength
S.O.S. - stricken off strength

No. 70 C.A. (B) T.C. - Number 70 Canadian Army Basic Training Centre

General List - no assigned trade on attestation

On joining he was posted to the strength of No. 7 District Depot and than when he moved on to basic training he was stricken off strength of No. 7 District Depot (losing unit) and taken onto the strength of No. 70 C.A.(B)T.C. (gaining unit)

The Part II D.O. No. Cas. List, Etc - means Part 2 of District Orders
No. - paragraph or serial, ie the 137 and 143
Cas. - casualty - date, if any, entered here
List - will get back to you on this - they referred to a code which was used to show a persons status, example - List X2

Hope this helps.

Cheers

P.S. - Carman;

- to the best of my knowledge, there are no books or sites that contain service terminologies and abbreviations.

Have to run

[Jim]

Hello
Thanks
Well here goes my start of STUPID QUESTIONS?
T.O.S Taken on Strength and S.O.S Striken off Strength... Please explain what this means( in short ) ??
Also Losing Unit and Gaining Unit ??
Still not understanding the Par,Serial ( 137or 143) number??
One line states the following---
District Order Number ( D.O. No. 283 and Date)

Also here are a list of Codes under the heading ( UNIT )
No.7 DD ? =
#70 CA/B/T.C. ? = # 70 canadian Army Basic Training Centre.
A-30 CITC ? =
CD & MS ? =
These two look like he took a truck driving course in Woodstock N.B. or they might have something to do with that.
TR BD CP ? =
Trg Bde ? =
4CIRU ? =
X-L-NS (NB)R ? =
Something about Nova Scotia ( New Brunswick) ?
RRR ? =
How about this , Royal Regina Rifles
N S Regt. ? =
Nova Scotia regiment

I do hope you will be patient as I have a lot of things I would like to try to understand, I only have a short time at the computer to do my research, so I would like to take this time to thank you
AGAIN.
Thanks
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jim;

Some answers:

No.7 DD - No. 7 District Depot
A-30 CITC - A30 Canadian Infantry Training Centre
Trg Bde - Training Brigade
4CIRU - No. 4 Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit
N S Regt - North Shore Regiment

T.O.S Taken on Strength - joining a unit (Gaining Unit)
S.O.S Stricken off Strength - leaving a unit (Losing Unit)

Sorry, this is short, have to run.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jim;

Reference: RRR - could be - Regina Rifle Regiment - their wartime designation

Reference: X-L-NS (NB)R = X List - North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment

Cheers

[Jim]

Thanks Mark
I am trying to interpet this one line at a time and it is now starting to get down to the HAND SCRIBBLES ( HARD TO MAKE OUT)

How about this?

TRG.BDE.GP. ?
Training Brigade ??????GP =

A.W.L. from 0600hrs. - 2030Hrs. AWL =


Total foreiture of one days P&A under art. 149 FR&I. ????
P&A ?
Artical 149 FR&I =

What is A-30 ? and What does the X- List mean?

Thanks
More to follow later.
Jim

I'll take a crack at some of them.
P & A, Pay and Allowances.

A30 was a Canadian Infantry Training Centre located at Utopia NB.

X list, I 've never been able to figure that all out. Usually it is followed by a number. If I remember right X3 is Hospital and X4 is Detention. I've seen the numbers run as high as 13 on Pt II Orders

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

"A.W.L. from 0600hrs. - 2030Hrs." is "Absent Without Leave" during the hours specified... no doubt he extended his leave by one day, hence the Pay & Allowances 'deduction' Art made reference to...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jim;

TRG.BDE.GP. = Training Brigade Group

art. 149 FR&I = Article No. 149 Field Regulations and Instructions

The X List:

X1 - prisoner of war (P.O.W.)
X2 - detention
X3 - hosptial
X4 - reinforcement
- reinforcement in transit
X5 - on course
X6 - missing
X7 - on loan
X8 - in transit
X9 & X10 - waiting return

Cheers

[Regina]

One other little point of interest. The original or first guys that joined up in Regina were given a serial number that started with "27." They call themselves the "2700's" which there are only a handful still alive today.

[Jim]

Hello
Thanks
WAR DIARIES
Here is my last talk with the National archives about the War.

I was talking to different people at the Archives this last week and
they told me to write another letter requesting the War Diaries.
It will cost about $.40/page and there about 20 pages / month in each envelope depending on the activity of the day. Also if you wanted all the Documents that are in each monthly folder that would be about 200 pages/month. CASH ONLY and money up front in the form of cash , money order or debit. ( no CHARGE CARDS).
Also this last person told me to call back and ask for the GENEALOGY Dept. if no answer there, leave a message and someone will call back.
Hope this can help someone.
National Archives of Canada 395 Wellington St. Ottawa On. K1A- ON3. 1866-578-7777
Jim

[Jim]

Hello
Please try these?
I will write them as shown with abrevations.
On Comm. 20Nov,43 & Att. f.a.p. to S.5 CD&M School Woodstock Ont. =
Completed I.C.Cource Class 3. =
Returned from Comm. =
Ceases to be attached to CD&M School =
Posted to T.S. Coy =
Furlough 14 Days , R/A $.50 =
Authorized to wear MARS BADGE =
Transfered to #1 Training Brigade Debert N.S. =
Absent without leave , Awarded 7 days C.B. =
I will post in a bit.
Thanks
Jim

[Jim]

Hello
More to try.
This ime I think it is when he was ready for overseas. In the middle of the page is a STAMPED SOS and TOSwith dates. I will try to type them as they are but I can't make them out too well...
Thanks

SOS TRG BDE GP to SER:294F Debert DO-107
SO .......................5 apr 44
TO ..........................6 apr 44
Discembark ..............12apr 44
Reported for duty .....12apr 44 4 CITU United Kingdom DO-98A

These 5 lines are Very feint and There are some letters where the dots are!!Can't make them out.

SOS if X List ( 12 BM) CRRG or ( 12 BN) CBBG = UK DO-106
SOS to R Rifles R = UK DO-22
TOS (letter with a circle around it). Then the following. TOS from X4 list NSR(NB) unit-RRR place- 21AGp: DO-27 =
Embarked at UK on 11june44 =
Disembarked at France on 12june44 Unit NS Regt. place21Agp. DO-25A. =
SOS KiLLED in Action. Unit-RRR Place- A E F DO-470
Place- 21ALN DO-33
Under the last 2 places ( A E F and 21A L N ) the 21ALN might not be right I can't tell what the last 2 letters are.
Hope someone can help, It is GREATLY APPRECIATED.
thanks
Jim

On Comm. 20Nov,43 & Att. f.a.p. to S.5 CD&M School Woodstock Ont. =
Completed I.C.Cource Class 3. =
Returned from Comm. =
Ceases to be attached to CD&M School =
Posted to T.S. Coy =
Furlough 14 Days , R/A $.50 =
Authorized to wear MARS BADGE =
Transfered to #1 Training Brigade Debert N.S. =
Absent without leave , Awarded 7 days C.B. =
I will post in a bit.

On Command, 20 November and attached for all purposes to S5 Command driving and maintenace school Woodstock Ontario


Completed Internal Combustion Course Class 3 (which means he was a truck driver)

Returned from Command

Ceased to be attached to the school

Posted to T.S Coy has me stumped?

The R/A was an allowance for room and board while off the station.

Mars badge indicated that he was not a Zombie and had volunteered for overseas service

Transfered to number one Training Brigade Debert NS means just what it says.

Absent without leave is self explanatory and he was confined to barracks for seven day. Which means he could not go off the base but still had to perform his duties.

[Jim]

Hi
Thanks for all the help.
I am slowly getting through the pages.
I don't have a lot of time but , I do appreciate your help.
Thanks
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Jim;

Some answers:

S.5 CD&M School Woodstock Ont. = S5 Canadian Driving and Maintenance School, Woodstock, Ontario

4 CITU = No. 4 Canadian Infantry Training Unit

( 12 BM) CRRG or ( 12 BN) CBBG = No 12 Battalion, Canadian Base Reinforcement Group

X4 list = reinforcement

T.S. Coy = Trained Soldier Company

Furlough 14 Days , R/A $.50 = on authorized leave for 14 days and paid a ration allowance of $50.00

SOS TRG BDE GP to SER:294F Debert DO-107
SO .......................5 apr 44
TO ..........................6 apr 44 = he was stricken off strength of No. 1 Training Brigade Group (Derbert, N.S.) on 5 April 1944 and taken on strength of Serial 294F (his overseas draft) on 6 April 1944, which was probably the date he sailed from Halifax for the UK

Discembark ..............12apr 44
Reported for duty .....12apr 44 4 CITU = arrived in the UK on 12 April 1944 and reported to No. 4 Canadian Infantry Training Unit (same date)

21AGp = 21st Army Group (Second British Army and First Canadian Army made up this Army Group - hence - 21st Army Group)

A E F = Allied Expeditionary Force

21ALN = probably reads 21AGP (21 Army Group)

TOS from X4 list NSR(NB) unit-RRR place- 21AGp = taken on strength from the reinforcement list for the North Shore Regiment by the Regina Rifle Regiment, 21st Army Group

DO-25A., DO-107 etc = these are the numbers of the orders published that authorized each entry on his service record, I've forgotton off hand what the 'D.O.' stands for

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Jim]

Hello

It's been awhile since my last post.

I have been working out of town and hard getting computer time.

I would like to continue my research on the Regina Rifles.

I have a lot of questions that I just don't understand and would like your expertice!!!

Does anyone know how I can find out what ( DO 135.)= Distrist Orders, mean or what the numbers following (DO) mean?

I'm sure one question will lead to another.

Sorry I was away so long, I enjoyed reading the post this last couple of weeks.
Everyone is so thoughtfull and understanding!
Thankyou Geoff for resetting my password.
Again thanks to everyone.
Jim

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jim
Hello

It's been awhile since my last post.

I have been working out of town and hard getting computer time.

I would like to continue my research on the Regina Rifles.

I have a lot of questions that I just don't understand and would like your expertice!!!

Does anyone know how I can find out what ( DO 135.)= Distrist Orders, mean or what the numbers following (DO) mean?

I'm sure one question will lead to another.

Sorry I was away so long, I enjoyed reading the post this last couple of weeks.
Everyone is so thoughtfull and understanding!
Thankyou Geoff for resetting my password.
Again thanks to everyone.
Jim

Hi Jim;

Glad to see you back. To answer one of your questions, DO 135 - stands for: District Order Number 135. Do you have a year to go along with your question regarding DO 135?

Cheers

[Jim]

Thanks
This taken from his ( record of service) papers.

Last column over --- Part II District orders no.cas.list etc. dated

under that is the following-- 135 8 JUNE 43
143 17 JUNE 43

There are different numbers for each move. I will list all the no's.below!!!!

135 8 june 43
143 17 june 43
145 18 june 43
198 19 aug 43
202 20 aug 43
247 11 oct 43
283 20 nov 43
240 or 248 22 nov 43
3 5 jan 44
6 10 jan 44
9 11 jan 44
14 17 jan 44
14 17 jan 44
27 1 feb 44
41 17 feb 44
59 23 feb 44
77 9 march 44
77 9 march 44
107 4 april 44
98a 13 april 44
106 22 april 44
22 22 june 44
27 30 june 44
25a 13 july 44
1-470
33 24 july 44
He was killed on 08th July 44.
If this is too much please let me know.
Thanks
Jim

[klambie]

Hi Jim,

I'm also researching an uncle killed with the Reginas and can try to provide a little of the knowledge I've managed to pick up over a number of years.

War Diaries - I have copies of the Regina War Diary for the months they were in combat. This is only the narrative part, and doesn't include the more detailed appendices that include message logs, patrol reports and the like. I don't have it at hand, but it's a PDF of 4 or 5 MB that I could email if you haven't already obtained them from the Archives. If you are a little more patient, I hope to have a Regina Rifle web site up in the next couple of months that will include the diaries, casualty lists and other info. It's intended to provide info for researchers just like us, and that can be difficult to access if you aren't in Ottawa. I'll post a link here once it's up and running. Email me at
klambie15 (at) hotmail.com if you'd like the PDF and a file that big won't choke your internet connection.

July 8 1944 - Another source of info on the Reginas attack that day was published in Canadian Military History in the Spring 1995 issue. You should be able to get a back issue here:
http://info.wlu.ca/%7Ewwwmsds/cmhbackissues.htm
This is written by Gordon Brown and has much overlap with 'Look to Your Front' which he co-authoured, but may be of interest. It's only a very tiny clue, but B and C Companies took the heaviest casualties that day (D Coy less so), so there is a better chance he was in one of those Coys.

Time with the Reginas - Based on what you have posted from his records, he was a reinforcement for the Reginas in mid-June 1944. He landed in France on 12 June, and according to other documents I have (Part II, Battalion Orders), was taken on strength 15 June with 24 other North Shore Regiment reinforcements. Most of these were also New Brunswick boys based on their service numbers. Based on the similar story for my uncle (6 June reinforcement, killed 4 July), you will have a difficult time placing him in a Company. The Regina diary does not include Company assignments for reinforcement drafts, as some diaries do. Assignments only appear in Part I of the Battalion Orders. They exist for the period prior to the invasion and resume again with some consistency in Aug and Sept of 1944. In between, they are extremely sparse. I have so far been unable to place my uncle in a Company. Further research in non-official sources and contact with veterans are the best remaining avenues to track this sort of info.

Will try to chip in with additional info, though interpreting personnel records is not a strength.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

In your research, I'd appreciate any info you run across re a Pte Walter Belfontaine. He's dead now, but I had the privilege of serving under him when I first went into the Forces. Apparently he was with the Reginas on D-Day and thereafter. He was a very private man regards his wartime service, but one of the finest officers I've ever met, and a true inspration. I'd really like to know if there's any direct mention of him.

[Regina]

Geoff, I just took a look through some of the books I have on the Regina's and can find no reference to Pte Walter Belfontaine. Kevin has a much more data on the regiment than I do and may have the nugget you are looking for. Do you know what company he was with?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I meant to say (I was partying with Ma ) RFN Belfontaine. And no, I don't know what company he was with. I'll try to find out, thanks.

[Regina]

I knew what you meant.

[Jim]

Hello
Thanks for the info. I did e-mail you for the pdf file and will greatly appreciate it.

I don't understand the moving around from North Shore to Regina Rifles and so on, but must be from the causalties of other regiments.

I will be looking through my records sometime later today and will post more questions?
Still looking for info for time spent in England from june 12th 44 to July 30th. 44.
I can't quite figure out his sailing dates From Halifax to England = Looks like April 06,44 departed and arrived England April12,44..
Then the Question, = Embarked at UK on 11 june 44 and Disembarked at France on 12 June 44.???? If he sailed from Halifax from 06 June to 12 June and then onto France from 11th June to the 12th of June did he bypass England altogether. Killed July 08th.44.
Thanks to all
Jim

[Regina]

Hello again Jim, thought you fell off the earth.....although I should talk.

I'm not sure I understand your question, so I'll explain what I think you're asking clarity on.

On the movement from the NS to RR. It could be a transfer because of casualties taken or it could be something as simple as him wanting to go. He may have had a chum or two in the Regina Rifles and wanted to fight with them. They trained in Debert before going overseas and the friendships may go back to there. I know personally of a few times were that is the case.

The sailing dates seem normal to me.
He left Halifax by ship on April 6/44 and arrived in the UK April 12/44. (approximately 6 days at sea)

He was in the UK from April 12/44 to June 12/44, most likely spent the time there training and re-equipping at Hiltingbury Common, six miles north of Southampton. This camp was one of many such establishments in the area operated by Movement Control.

He left the UK by ship (probably Portsmouth, England) June 11/44 and arrived in Normandy, France the next day (approximately 110 miles) June 12/44. From that day to July 8/44 it would have been a mixture of dirt, lead and Calvados.

Did I miss something?

[Jim]

Hello
You guys are great! I have the paper work in front of me and still can't figure it out, and I ask , then here comes a lot of answers.
Thanks
More questions to follow.
Jim

[Jim]

Hello
to Mark from an earlier reply post to me:

From mark
TOS from X4 list NSR(NB) unit-RRR place- 21AGp = taken on strength from the reinforcement list for the North Shore Regiment by the Regina Rifle Regiment, 21st Army GroupThanks

Would this mean he was with the North Shore's or the Regina's at the time of his fighting.

April 22,44 = 4 CIRU---UK--------------106----22 April44
June 14,44= X-list - NS(NB)Reg - UK- 22 -----22June44
June15,44= RRR - 21 AGP-- ------------27------30june44
June 15,44= NS-REG-21 AGP-----------25A-----13July44
July08,44 = Unit is blank-- AEF---------A-470--No date
July08,44 = RRR--21 AGP----------------33-------24July44.

I am reaserching the Regina Rifles and sometimes think , should I be looking into another regiment like the North Shore New Brunswick Regiment?

Still don't understand what is ment by 2nd and 3rd lines? (For the North Shore Regiment by the Regina Rifle Regiment)
I do have a copy af all the above abbreviations. Except for the District Order Numbers..
Thanks
Jim

JIM and REGINA,

It's really good to see you two back in here continuing these threads. I've come a long way baby from the ignorance I had about my Uncle's service, life and death, and SO much more than I began with ... my first post being March 2nd, 2003.

My education continues ... endlessly

Karmen (MA YAPPY these days)

... I got to ride on a CLASS 5 BAILEY BRIDGE today!!! ... good stuff!

[klambie]

Hi Jim,

A variety of ways your uncle could have ended up with the Reginas, here's my understanding of how the regular operation of the reinforcement system could have led to that. Some of this I've just figured out myself recently (and I'm a layman), so any corrections to my impressions appreciated. Bear in mind that while there were rules to much of how this worked, they were continually being changed and reorganized, and occasionally worked around as circumstances required. This is just a typical outline, though each man's experience could be a little bit unique. I've named these phases just to make it a little easier to follow.

Phase 1 - When an infantryman you went into the reinforcement stream in England, he was typically assigned to one of the CIRUs (Cdn Infantry Reinforcement Unit). These were typically organized to provide reinforcements to the Cdn Division with the same number, so 1 CIRU reinforced 1 Cdn Div, 2 CIRU to 2 Cdn Div, etc. 3 Cdn Div assaulted on D-Day, so 3 CIRU provided the large majority of the earliest reinforcements.

Phase 2 - Within a CIRU, men were oraganized into Companies that reflected the Battalion (or Regiment) to which they would nominally be assigned. So within 3 CIRU, there was a ReginaRif Coy, a WinnipegRif Coy, a NorthShore Coy, etc. As much as possible, your geographic origin was honoured in this process. So whenever they could, Sask. men were assigned to the ReginaRif Coy, Manitobans to the WinnipegRif Coy and so on. The divisions (very roughly) tended to be organized to include a Regiment from most of the provinces so that most soldiers could be assigned with others from their province. With smaller provincial bases of manpower to draw from and fewer corresponding units to be assigned to, men from the East Coast probably tended to be more difficult to accomodate this way, so tended to be lumped in with those from other provinces more often.

While in these units, you trained and waited as your name moved up the top of the list for an assigment to a Division.

Phase 3 - When you hit the top of the list, you were typically transferred to the Division you would fight with, assigned to a reinforcement list for the Regiment you would go to. So guys from the the ReginaRif Coy in 3 CIRU went to the ReginaRif X-4 list in 3 Cdn Division, the guys from the North Shore Coy in 3 CIRU went to the NorthShore X-4 list in 3 Cdn Division and so on. It's important to note that in spite of all of this 'organization', all of this stuff was largely an administrative/accounting exercise. It allowed them to keep track of the number of men in each category and ensure no one unit was getting too many or too few in their reinforcement queue. As you'll see below, that all could go out the window when it came time to go into action.

Phase 4 - Once on an X-4 list, if all went according to the rules, you would again work your way up this list until your were one day assigned to fill the spot of a casualty in the corresponding battalion. So someone on the ReginaRif X-4 list replaced a Regina casualty and one on the NorthShore X-4 list replaced a North Shore. From there, you went into action.

Phase 3 is where your uncle first broke the usual pattern, when he jumped from 4 CIRU (where you'd expect him to end up in 4 Cdn Amd Div) to the X-4 list of a 3 Cdn Div unit, the North Shores. The most likely reason for this was 3 Cdn Div's role in the invasion and the casualties they were expected to take. Getting their numbers right up to strength took priority over divisions like 4 Cdn Amd who weren't to go into action for a number of weeks. They probably grabbed guys from lots of different reinforcement units to accomplish this.

Your uncle also broke the pattern in Phase 4, which is where the 'rules' were most commonly broken. Since this was happening just a week or so after the invasion, you went where you were needed most and the idea of letting you serve with others from your home province was largely forgotten. In your uncle's case, when he and the group of 25 North Shore reinforcements came to the front of the reinforcement line in France on 15 June, the North Shores didn't need any extra bodies and there was a nice officer from the Reginas standing there looking for some. Without a blink, they were assigned to the Reginas and became honourary Saskatchewanians (?). This was all done on an extremely immediate basis. In the days after the invasion, it would not at all be surprising to see in the course of one day a bunch of guys on the NorthShore X-4 list be assigned to the Reginas, and then see (a few hours later perhaps) a bunch of guys on the Regina X-4 list be assigned to the NorthShores. No time was spent trying to guess who the next batch of reinforcements were supposed to go to, or who the next request for reinforcements might come from.

As a note of interest, you can see in the records in July and August (once everyone has settled into at least a bit of a 'routine') some effort to swap some of these guys back to where they had been intended to go. It was potentially problematic to pull guys out of a unit after they'd been integrated, but you can see those kinds of transfers.

Hope this helps a bit and isn't too difficult to track.