War in Poland 1939 - false myths?

[Bartek]

Originally posted by Jacek
Thank you guys for the warm welcome! I appreciate.

You are certainly right that oceangoing subs and destroyers and what we had of plans for battleships was a little bit weird.

I remember an issue of a long forgotten magazine "Liga Morska i Kolonialna"- mostly wishful thinking about obtaining some colonies.
I don´t know - it was sort of obsession to become a naval power. Or....who knows? Money under the table?

Anyways, the navy was a mess.
The AT rifles were there, but due to secrecy, they were issued too late and not many knew how to use them properly.
More glaring mistakes? Stellan?

What was exactly wrong with Polish HQs and military?
I had always a feeling that the Army was too poor because the country was new and poor. Add to it the Polish temperament and you are well underway towards a catastrophe.

Even if the country hadnt bought or built the ships it had, would it have been able to built enough tanks, prepare tank crews, read and understand Liddel Hart or whoever wrote about modern warfare?
Germany was preparing for war for years - remember the school for German tank crews and pilots on USSR? That was even before Hitler.

And USSR itself: I can´t remember how many tanks and planes they had in 1939, but it was much, much more than Germany. They began their war preparations in late twenties.
One can laugh at the debacle in Finland;
I had some discusions with Finns about their Mannerheim line: they underestimate it , imo. The Soviet breakthrough was a real achievement, not to be ashamed of. They were able to break a heavily fortified area with awful natural obstacles as part of the system, in minus 30-35 gr. Celcius. Smething nobody had done before. A costly victory - yes, but an invaluable school for the future conquests.

So, it was not a cripple who was stabbing Poland in its back.
The Soviets have been buying complete factories in the US: Staligrad, Charkov, Chelabinsk - was it from Ford?

Yes Jacek,country was too poor to build a modern army like Wehrmacht or Soviet Army,but why polish General Staff hold the program of building TKD?It was tank destroyer based on TK tank,armed with 37mm Bofors ATG,at that time only Russians were building tank destroyers.Why was hold the program of development of Fighter PZL-50 Jastrzab(Hawk),after the war gen.Rayski(till the 1938 Head Commander of Polish Air Forces) told that till the September 1939 polish factories were been able to produce 50 Hawks or even more,propably PZL-50 was compare to Hawker Hurricane.
I agree Poland wasn't been able to formed 4-8 tanks divisions,but maybe without that "brilliant" ideas of colonies there would be 4-6 motorized Brigades?
At 1939 135 polish PZL-7 and PZL-11 shot down 124 german planes,add to that 135 planes 50 PZL-50,or even Poland wasn't been able to built them so much ,they could be replaced by Hurricanes or Spitfires,or US made planes.Money were been saved by leaving the colonial dream.

[Jacek]

Hi Bartek,
I can only agree with you that much could have been done better and that Wehrmacht would have to pay a much higher price for its blitzkrieg.

It requires a thick book, I´m afraid, to treat all the reasons why the Polish Army failed to defend the country longer and bleed Wehrmacht white in the process.
Such a book would have to deal not only with strategic, tactical, in short - military issues but also issues of world politics, financial interests, sociology and more - you can continue yourself, I´m sure.

The main problem - that of the traditional prewar policy of balancing the two big neighbors- wasn´t effective once the two found together for a while.

I´m only happy that we, as Poles, don´t need to be ashamed of our defeat. We did better than Hitler and his HQ expected, yet - worse than our grandfathers´expectations.

In the end, it required half a civilized world to put the beast to death. Our people did all they possibly could have, both in September and later on.

Still, it´s healthy to review the past and learn from the mistakes, which, albeit maybe unavoidable, happened. Not to put blame on this or that, but just to be wiser in the future.

[Bartek]

Originally posted by Jacek
Hi Bartek,
I can only agree with you that much could have been done better and that Wehrmacht would have to pay a much higher price for its blitzkrieg.

A few changes at Polish Supreme HQ and deployment of polish army could make Wehrmacht bleeding much more[/QUOTE]

The main problem - that of the traditional prewar policy of balancing the two big neighbors- wasn´t effective once the two found together for a while. [/QUOTE]Yes,and Isuppose that the only chance to change polish foreign politic was lost during Munich.[/B]

I´m only happy that we, as Poles, don´t need to be ashamed of our defeat. We did better than Hitler and his HQ expected, yet - worse than our grandfathers´expectations.

In the end, it required half a civilized world to put the beast to death. Our people did all they possibly could have, both in September and later on.

Still, it´s healthy to review the past and learn from the mistakes, which, albeit maybe unavoidable, happened. Not to put blame on this or that, but just to be wiser in the future. [/B]

Yes,During the war at western europe at 1940 german's loses of personel and equipment were higher than at Poland at 1939.By the way Wehrmacht was stronger than polish army,but weaker than England,French,Belgium,Holland and Norway,and nobody in the past and nowadays is talking about "ancient" french tanks,about charges with sabers against tanks,strange.
From the fact that 800 polish tanks weren't been able to stop 2400 german ones whole world know that polish army was unproffecional and armed with ancient equipment,but at the fact that 3500 british and french tanks weren't been able to stop 2800 german ones nobody see anything wrong at british-french strategy and equipment.Something strange for me,really strange!

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jacek
Thank you guys for the warm welcome! I appreciate.


The AT rifles were there, but due to secrecy, they were issued too late and not many knew how to use them properly.
More glaring mistakes? Stellan?

Partly agree, partly disagree.

The AT-rifles kept under lock as "Rifles for export tp Uruguay" and nicknamed "Ur" were in many cases issued to late.

But these bolt operated rifles were very easy to handle. Anyone who could use a Mauser rifle could also use an Ur rifle.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jacek



I had some discusions with Finns about their Mannerheim line: they underestimate it , imo. The Soviet breakthrough was a real achievement, not to be ashamed of. They were able to break a heavily fortified area with awful natural obstacles as part of the system, in minus 30-35 gr. Celcius. Smething nobody had done before. A costly victory - yes, but an invaluable school for the future conquests.

Partly disagree.

The "Mannerheim line" is for considerable parts just fiction.

It was not heavily fortified but conisted of a small number of bunkers or pillboxes, many of which bult in the 1920-ies and obsolescent.

Most of this "line" consisted of open trenches hastly dug out by the Finnish troops.

[Bartek]

Lucky for Fins ,they were fighting at "anti-tank" terrain,and they were fighting alone,but only at one front.
Poland is very good terrain for tanks,some strong points useful for defence can be very easily bypassed by tanks,next from the 17th of September Poland was fighting on two fronts.
Real problem of Poland at 1939 was that Poland was been invaded by the biggest army all over the world-soviet's army,and the Wehrmacht which was the third biggest land army all over the world,the second was french army.
You can be a very good boxer,but try to fight when You are attacked by Lennox Louis and Mike Tyson together.

[Jacek]

Ok, I´ll try.


I answer later - have some work to do and then - cycle home (lousy weather but it´s only 9 km).

Regs. to both of you.

[Bartek]

I compared the Poland situation at 1939 to box match against Louis and Tyson not yours.
For me comparing the Finish Winter War to Polish Defence War is pointless,just like "compare eagle and shark,the first one is not swimming ,the second one is not flying."
Fins should be proud of their fighting against the biggest army of the second world war,but there are too many diferences between that campaignes(season,terrain,political situation,roads,weather etc.),for making a correct compare.

[Bartek]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Partly agree, partly disagree.

The AT-rifles kept under lock as "Rifles for export tp Uruguay" and nicknamed "Ur" were in many cases issued to late.

But these bolt operated rifles were very easy to handle. Anyone who could use a Mauser rifle could also use an Ur rifle.

Yes,but each kind of machine has it's own tricks,when You buy a new car,some time you are driving little more carefully,because you don't "feel it quite good" UR-1 of course was very simple in use,but it would be better for polish soldiers to "meet" it before the war,not just on the battlefields.

[Jacek]

The technique of fighting tanks is essential. You have to know its weak spots: optics, thickness of armor in different places etc.

No, Bartek, I was not comparing the Finnish war with anything else. I was just trying to show that RKKA was actively practising in the expectation of bigger tasks.

Stellan - please, do not underestimate the Mannerheim Line. It was built for small money but it was a masterpiece of low budget fortifications that used the natural conditions and obstacles, maybe, optimally. I know, Gentlemen do not discuss facts. But try to advance a division through a narrow forrest road. where you can´t even turn your hardware around, with minefields on both sides, and find out that the bridge behind you as well as before you have just been dynamited. From both sides you have snipers, well hidden behind the minefields , who pluck your officers (incl. yourself), and all of that in -30 centigrades. Cheap, yes, but deadly too!

I am also, like Bartek, annoyed by the, I don´t even know how to call it. - condescension towards the Polish Army vs. the French or BEF. It is, as I see it, just an example of Pavlovian reaction vs. all things concerning Eastern Europe. This also includes the term "Polish concentration camps".
Not to mention the persistent enmity of parts of Jewish opinionmakers towards Poland.

And now, I´d like to explode the biggest bomb in this entry: Who agrees with AJP Taylor´s opinions on the origins of WW2? I mention it because it is by all means relevant to this thread - maybe the greatest myth?

[Bartek]

Originally posted by Jacek
It is, as I see it, just an example of Pavlovian reaction vs. all things concerning Eastern Europe. This also includes the term "Polish concentration camps".

or something like that "At Poland nazis were killing Jews during the II World War".Poland where is everybody know,but who were nazis?Polish,Germans,French or Canadians?Nobody knows.Propably nazis were aliens arrived to Earth from space,maybe from Alfa Centaurii.

[Jacek]

Alfa Centauri sounds too nice.

Let´s see: NS - maybe Nova Scotia?

[Bartek]

I've found an interesting opinion about Polish Defence War 1939.Gen.Tadeusz Kutrzeba was a commander of Army "Poznan" during the WW II.After the war he wrote that most destroying influence on polish soldiers had Lufftwaffe not tanks,because soldiers were been able to fight against tanks,but they were totaly powerless against air attacks.Polish ID had only 4 40mm Bofors AAG,CavBde only 2 bofors AAG.At the effect the losses made by german air attacks wasn't been very high,but had very destructive influence on polish soldiers morale.Polish soldiers felt themselves totaly unprotected from air attacks and slowly loosing their fighting spirirt,very often even without fights against germany tanks or infrantry.Kutrzeba wrote that he often saw a shocked and totaly demoralized units from which soldiers hadn't even see the enemy,that was made only by air attacks.When soldier is unable to response the enemy he will lost his morale very soon.At thst situation polish units exhaustive and shocked were very weak opponents for german tanks.
The same situation took a place at Normandy at 1944.Allied air attacks very often destroyed german units before their came into the battle.