Nice T16 pics...but help identify Dutch AT Gun

bubbaandshaff · #1 12-07-04, 18:56

I hope someone can help identify the 37mm AT that is behind the T16 in this picture.

It (the gun) was made by the National Forge and Ordnance Co. of Irvine, PA. It fires the standard US 37mm Anti-tank gun ammunition. On the left side of the Breech Shield is a Brass Plaque with the Royal Crest of the Netherlands/Dutch (?). We know of one other gun, and it, and its accompanying limber, is in Australia. We have been told that they were made for the Netherlands/Dutch East Indies Army and that they could quickly be removed from their carriages for installation into light tanks. Any information is appreciated.

Some additional pictures are at:

http://community.webshots.com/album/127851578eUKZTP

and

http://community.webshots.com/album/156991342taEUDz[IMG

nuyt · #2 13-07-04, 16:46

Well Bubbaandshaff, that's an excelent find!

Thanks!

These guns were as you say ordered by the Dutch (Netherlands Purchasing Commision) in the US for the KNIL (Dutch East Indies Army).

A small number of limbered guns were actually delivered and some more were on their way to the NEI but diverted after the fall of Java (ending up in various places: Australia and the Dutch West Indies).

I had always assumed (before seeing these pictures) that although made by a different manufacturer, these guns would have looked similar to the US army standard 37mm AT gun.

I know someone in Holland who is researching these guns. Tonight, when at home I will look into this a bit more.

As you say, these guns could easily be fitted into tanks. That must have been the Marmon-Herrington light and medium tanks that were ordered in great numbers by the Dutch as well (also for KNIL).

Will get back to this.

Greetings
Nuyt

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #3 13-07-04, 17:10

Hello,

So far I have found that there were at least 10 - 37 mm guns on Java. They arrived in small batches on three different ships and that makes me beleive that they came from a factory and not from an Ordnance Depot. And then the crest. Such an item should only be found on purpose produced equipment.

Greetings,

Stellan

bubbaandshaff · #4 13-07-04, 18:05

The Gun and Carrier reside in Ohio, USA. The National Forge and Ordnance Co (now just National Forge Co ) has gone bankrupt, and been absorbed by another company.
Here is a picture of a similar gun in a Museum/collection in Australia.

And its apparent limber. We believe this because the lunette and Surge Brake assembly are identical to our guns. And it appears to be hooked to the gun.

I am uploading some more pictures of the gun beside a US M3 37mm gun for comparison.

There should also be a picture of the brass plaque on the breech shield. If anyone recognizes it, we would appreciate the info. Any information will be appreciated (i.e. actual use, numbers purchased, wartime photographs, guns still around). And thanks for the response so far.

nuyt · #5 13-07-04, 18:07

Thanks Stellan!

Well bubbaandshaft, here's some more info:

KNIL outstanding orders as per 30 april 1941:

to the National Forge & Ordnance Corp, Irvine, PA
- 1 x 37mm Anti-tank gun at USD 9700 delivery asap
- 103 x AT guns, delviery starting monthly september 41
- 100 37mm anti tank gun units at USD 9750, delivery by Oct 31, 1941.

A total of 204 37 AT guns as far as I can see (info kindly provided by Mr Leland Ness)

At the same company the Netherlands Purchasing Commision also bought a total of 50 scout cars (no further info) at USD 875 a piece. Do you have any info on these?

I have always assumed these were White Scout Cars (KNIL had these as well), but it could have been something else, like something for the guns to go with....(were Whites that cheap? this sounds more like the price of a light truck)

KNIL had also ordered 305 x 37mm 44 cal. full automatic tank guns, model M2 at USD 6975 a piece (from the American Armament Corp). THOSE were the Marmon-Herringtons guns I think.

So your gun might have been fitted on or into something else...

Could you tell us more about the gun? Where did it come from? Why is it where it is (well, where is it now?)

Kind regards,
Nuyt

bubbaandshaff · #6 13-07-04, 18:13

If anyone objects to this thread being in this forum, I understand and will not pursue it, as this is the Carrier Forum. Those that have replied, I appreciate your info. This is a great forum and well appreciated.

nuyt · #7 13-07-04, 20:18

Who knows more about the details and history of the gun on show in AUstralia? Which Museum?

Thanks
Nuyt

bubbaandshaff · #8 13-07-04, 20:26

The picture is from this web site:

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au

Here is the link to the Limber:

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au/...les/limber.jpg

I will have to ask how we found out about the gun pictured in Australia

nuyt · #9 13-07-04, 22:44

That's the Dutch coat of arms, indeed. The French words "Je maintiendrai" mean something like: I will maintain myself/ my position.

You certainly have a rare beast, Chris!

I guess most guns were never delivered in time to participate in the defence of the Dutch East Iidies in early 1942, so the majority must have remained in the US, where they were sold or scrapped?

I am very interested to find out more on these guns as wel as the vehicles sold by the same company. PLease keep us informed.

It looks like the Dutch gun is somewhat larger and longer than the M3. The shield looks better than the tinier US one, I think.

Regards, Nuyt

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #10 14-07-04, 06:29

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
It looks like the Dutch gun is somewhat larger and longer than the M3. The shield looks better than the tinier US one, I think.

The KNIL 37 mm AT-gun should be L/58.

Missing my handbook on US Army I don´t remember how long the US 37 mm M3 was.

The Japanese captured 8 guns with motor-transport limbers on Java. These guns were used by the Japanese forces locally for training since they were so few.

bubbaandshaff · #11 14-07-04, 12:48

Does anyone have any pictures of this type of gun, other than the ones I have posted or linked to? Either factory photos, KNIL acceptance photos, or battlefield photos.

Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of the Marmon-Harrington (?) vehicles equiped with 37mm guns. I would like to see what kind of 37mm gun was used (standard US or possibly the National Forge guns).

Thanks you Eric and Stellan for your information. We have found out more in the last 24 hours than we have in years.

nuyt · #12 15-07-04, 15:44

1. After consulting my notes from my last visits to the Dutch National Archives I found out that the total number of anti-tank guns delivered to the Dutch was 24 by the end of 1942 (including Dutch East Indies untill March 42 and the West Indies thereafter)
The ten diverted guns after March 1942 (on 3 different ships) were probably shipped to the West Indies and/or the Dutch in Australia.

My thoughts on the Australian museum piece: I would doubt this was a gun in Dutch service: the KNIL left Australia from 1944-45 and they would surely have taken the guns along to fight the Japanese then and anybody else after 45.

Question: So were these guns also delivered to the Aussie Army? Anybody has a clue?

2. The total number of around 200 guns ordered must be correct. A listing of KNIL orders by August 41 (US Mission report) states that 200 guns were ordered (of a total need of 250), while delivery was now expected from Jan 42-Jun42. So production had been delayed as with many other items KNIL ordered.

My thoughts on production figures: I am not sure if after the fall of Java (beginning of March42) National Forge would have kept on producing. The order may have been cancelled by the Dutch. So I am not sure if we can state all 200 guns were actually produced.

3. The use of these guns in/on vehicles.
I am definitely sure now that these guns were NOT the same guns as used for the Marmon-Herrington tanks. For these the Dutch had ordered hundreds of specially designed automatic 37mm guns at American Armament Co that apparently did not use standard 37mm munition (in a clip of five).
Two reliable sources name these guns as the ones used by the MH tanks. Hans Heesakkers in his MH tank articles for a Dutch magazine (with accounts of the use of these tankguns in the post-war Dutch forces in Surinam) and mr Leland Ness in his very recent Janes' WW2 fighting vehicles book.

My thoughts:
The Dutch intended some of these guns to be installed on some unknown vehicle, purchased at National Forge as stated above.
Moreover, the 3 US sourced 37mm anti-tank guns of the KNIL Java tankbattalion (mobiele eenheid) were reportedly "truck-borne".

Question: who knows more on the vehicles that were purchased at National Forge?

4. Guns in action.
I have never seen a picture of these guns before but I will be on the lookout now. I am not sure these guns were in action on Java in 1942. The Tank Batt.'s guns reportedly did NOT see action in the confused running battles at Ciater Pass. But there were unspecified anti-tank guns in action at a skirmish at Serajoe river (Dutch 1942 spelling). Who knows?

As Stellan has mentioned the Japanese captured 8 gun/limber combinations in 1942. These guns were surely kept in a depot and must have been still around by 1945 when they either fell in the hands of the returning Dutch or the (now fighting for independence from the Dutch) Indonesian republicans.
So they might have seen battle in 1945-49 and there could be pics of this period.

So, Chris, I will be looking for more info on these guns AND vehicles as well. Lets keep in touch.

Greetings
Nuyt

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 15-07-04, 16:12

Chris,

Apart from enjoying the nice T16 pics (I like them!), I was amazed when I read your message. Like Nuyt, I had always assumed the 37-mm gun supplied to the KNIL were the standard US Army 37mm AT gun. And here we are, with two survivors of this rare and intriguing gun!

Since the KNIL was re-arming in a period where the rest of the free world was doing the same, it is well known they had problems to procure any type of weaponry. That is why the ended up doing business with commercial companies like Marmon-Herrington and, as I just learned, the National Forge and Ordnance Co. The Netherlands Purchasing Commission (NPC) must have travelled the US from coast to coast to find manufacturers to fill in their huge and sudden demands. As for 37-mm guns, US Mission reports show requirements for 400 tank guns (to be supplied by the American Armament Corp) and 250 AT guns, all to be supplied by the end of 1941.
A huge task, which was not completed, as we learn from the document Lend-Lease Shipments World War II (War Department, 31 December 1946). Under Light Artillery Guns, it lists delivery of (only) six "37mm, AT, w/limbers", all of them to the Netherlands. It does not list a type designation, and the fact that they were delivered with limbers point towards these being those National Forge & Ordnance Co. guns.
Out of a grand total of 2,284 "37mm, M5 & M6, f/CV's", fifty were delivered to the Netherlands. I believe these are the 37mm guns destined for the Marmon-Herrington CTMS-1TBI and MTLS-1GI4 tanks (although some sources state they were fitted with twin 20-mm guns).
Strangely, according to this overview no other types of 37-mm guns were delivered.
Remaining questions:
- How many guns of those ordered and shipped to the Netherlands East-Indies actually arrived?
- How many were diverted to Australia (at least one)?
- How many of those produced never left the USA (also at least one)?

As long as people will continue asking intelligent questions like you, it will trigger others to dig up more information. To be continued!

Regards,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 15-07-04, 16:18

Quote:

Originally posted by bubbaandshaff
If anyone objects to this thread being in this forum, I understand and will not pursue it, as this is the Carrier Forum.

Chris: not a problem, I'll move it to the WW2 Military History & Equipment forum.

Nuyt: turns out we were typing up the same sort of conclusions and answers at the same time!

Hanno

nuyt · #15 15-07-04, 16:20

Quote:

Strangely, according to this overview no other types of 37-mm guns were delivered.

Hanno, that's not strange since it lists all deliveries under Lend-lease which does not include all other deliveries and purchases to the private sector. So, if something does not show up on the lend-lease list it does not mean it was never delivered.
As for the M-H's guns, please read Heesakkers stories in Twenot's De Tank. There is an interesting account of these automatic guns. I guess you just missed my posting above by some minutes.
I have no clue as yet for what reason the M5/M6 tank guns you mention were delivered, but the M-H's in Surinam did not have'em.

Nuyt

bubbaandshaff · #16 15-07-04, 16:40

Our gun Serial Number is in the high 400 range. It was in New York, USA, when we learned of it. Many important questions have been posed about the acquisition of the guns.

I have some questions about the "strange" design of the gun.
http://community.webshots.com/s/imag...1rNfIFp_ph.jpg
Note how the trails fold upon themselves, and the towing lunette (and surge brake) is set back on the trails. Also, it appears that the axle could rotate up in order to get a lower profile. We have not been able to do this, however it looks like it should (almost like a 1937 French 25mm Peteaux AT-Gun).

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 15-07-04, 16:41

Nuyt, yep, I was typing up my message while you posted yours.

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Hanno, that's not strange since it lists all deliveries under Lend-lease which does not include all other deliveries and purchases to the private sector. So, if something does not show up on the lend-lease list it does not mean it was never delivered.

I know, but wouldn't you agree the "37mm, AT, w/limbers" were probably those National Forge & Ordnance Co. guns? Possibly they made an accounting error: while the listing for the item says 6, the total of 58 37-mm guns could indicate actually 8 were delivered, corresponding to those 8 guns plus limbers captured by the Japanese as Stellan noted.

Quote:

As for the M-H's guns, please read Heesakkers stories in Twenot's De Tank. There is an interesting account of these automatic guns.

Will do and get back to you on it.

H.

nuyt · #18 15-07-04, 17:03

Chris, can the wheels be detached like in this DAF design of the late 30's (on a 47mm Boehler gun)?

KNIL had Boehlers as well, btw.

I am not a specialist on French AT-guns, but since KNIL had the Austrian Boehlers, they could have used this gun as an example, while they had it made in 37mm to take US ammo?

Nuyt

nuyt · #19 15-07-04, 18:27

Quote:

I know, but wouldn't you agree the "37mm, AT, w/limbers" were probably those National Forge & Ordnance Co. guns?

Yes, Hanno, good point. I agree. But the reason they show up under lendlease could have another reason. As I recall (but memory is a fragile thing) from reading in the archives on equipping the Dutch forces in the West Indies, the HQ initially (1942ish) had no problems in getting what they wanted from the huge surplusses of NPC orders. After that, NPC either sold the surplusses to the US or other buyers while other material might have been confiscated or "diverted" (not p-worded). So from 1943ish on the Dutch forces could no longer take from the surplusses what they wanted, but needed to apply with the US (under lend-lease for instance) or other allies.
So, if they had decided by 1943 that for instance the troops in Surinam for their coming expedition to the NEI would need another 6 or 8 AT guns (and preferably of the type already used) they would have obtained them through lend-lease...
Far fetched? I dont think so.
I think the 6 or 8 guns mentioned on the lend-lease list refer to a later delivery (on top of the 24 or so delivered in 1942 to both Dutch "theaters of war").

Cheers
Nuyt

nuyt · #20 15-07-04, 18:57

Chris, one more question.
You said the guns can easily be removed from their carriages.
So what comes of? The wheels and trails? Or more?
And what would be the use of that round think underneath the gun? Some sort of screw or fitting to place the gun on (onto a fixed mount?)

Nuyt

Hanno Spoelstra · #21 15-07-04, 19:51

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
My thoughts on the Australian museum piece: I would doubt this was a gun in Dutch service: the KNIL left Australia from 1944-45 and they would surely have taken the guns along to fight the Japanese then and anybody else after 45.

Question: So were these guns also delivered to the Aussie Army? Anybody has a clue?

I'm pretty much convinced that any of these guns that ended up in Australia came there as diverted shipments from the NEI, just like the Marmon-Herrington two-man tanks and Ford/Marmon-Herrington ½-ton 4x4 trucks. After the fall of Singapore, Australia believed to be under imminent threat of Japanese invasion in early 1942 and any type of equipment was welcome to the ill-equipped army, either in second line duty if not in front-line duty.

H.

nuyt · #22 16-07-04, 17:51

Quote:

Possibly they made an accounting error: while the listing for the item says 6, the total of 58 37-mm guns could indicate actually 8 were delivered, corresponding to those 8 guns plus limbers captured by the Japanese as Stellan noted.

No, if you turn to the next page you'll see there were also 2 40mm guns delivered! That makes 58.

Quote:

Out of a grand total of 2,284 "37mm, M5 & M6, f/CV's", fifty were delivered to the Netherlands

Turn some more pages and you'll see these would have belonged to the 50 M3 light tanks delivered to the Dutch (but diverted to Australia while en route te Java in March 42). As the document states: "theatre transfers do not have to show up".
Question solved.

Nuyt

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #23 19-07-04, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra

A huge task, which was not completed, as we learn from the document Lend-Lease Shipments World War II (War Department, 31 December 1946).

Hanno,
I cannot find this document "Lend-Lease Shipments World War II" in the NEI-docs although there were the mission reports e t c - very interesting!

Greetings,

Stellan

Hanno Spoelstra · #24 19-07-04, 12:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
I cannot find this document "Lend-Lease Shipments World War II" in the NEI-docs although there were the mission reports e t c - very interesting!

Stellan: sorry, it wasn't uploaded in the folder yet - now it is.

Regards,
Hanno

Stellan Bojerud (RIP) · #25 19-07-04, 12:28

Thank You Hanno,

It did work. I beleive You already have Section III-B Ordnance - Motor Transport Vehicles belonging to the Lend-Lease report.

Stellan

PS: Page 2 of the Lend-Lease report is missing.

ADDED: The Lend-Lease report does not include equipment bought by the Netherlands Purchasting Agency.

bubbaandshaff · #26 21-07-04, 16:57

We have been told of more of these guns by a collector in Australia. He says that when he was a kid, he can remeber a junk yard with 40 of these cannons. He "rescued" the last three, and still has one on his collection. I will try to take some more pictures of our gun and post them (and the T16). Thanks for all the good info!

nuyt · #27 21-07-04, 17:08

Thanks Chris,
Now its up the the Aussie members of this forum to give us a clue!

Nuyt

G166UC · #28 19-08-04, 07:20

Chris,
Are you by any!!! chance related to Don Shaffer? I need his e-mail address as I have a part from his T-16 that I need to return to him. Have him e-mail me so I can get his mailing address.
Thanks Rod Shaver

hansheesakkers · #29 26-08-04, 22:49

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
My thoughts:

hansheesakkers · #30 26-08-04, 23:00

Concerning the 37 mm A.A.C guns; The Royal Dutch Navy ordered 40 pieces of the "37 mm 50 calibre semi automatic A.A. gun on naval Pedestal Mounts". All 40 were delivered to Java in 1941. In 1945 they were found on Java and restored on the R.P. (regionale patrouilleboten) boats. several were handed over in 1949 too Indonesian Navy.
The A.A.C. used as tank gun on the Marmon Herrington tanks were delivered to Suriname (66 pcs), Aruba 1 peice, Curacao 2 pcs.
The Nat. Forge & Ord. 37 mm, were delivered after the fall of Java to Suriname, Aruba and Curacao.
According to an iventory list of april 1943 following guns were available in Suriname:
Pantserafweergeschut 37 mm. (Nat. Forge); 21 pcs.
Pantserafweergeschut 37 mm (????): 3 pcs.
A inventory of december 1945 shows: 42 pieces.
Numbers concerning Aruba and Curacao are unkown to me at this moment. As soon as I know who to post a photograph on this site I will put some examples of this gun in Suriname and Curacao. Hope this adds some thing usefull to this matters