Odiham ww2 vehicle pics

[Mike Timoshyk]

The vehilces pictured were located at Odiham Village, County Hampshire England. The location is 45 miles west of London, midway between Fleet and Bassingstoke Railway stations. These fotos come from the estate of a Canadian Medical Orderly who was posted there. In the Squadron history the following is mentioned "No. 110 Squadron RCAF arrived in the UK February 1940 as an Army Cooperation squadron. It was renumbered as 400 Squadron at Odiham Hants., England , March 1, 1941.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Timoshyk

The vehilces pictured were located at Odiham Village, County Hampshire England. The location is 45 miles west of London, midway between Fleet and Bassingstoke Railway stations. These fotos come from the estate of a Canadian Medical Orderly who was posted there. In the Squadron history the following is mentioned "No. 110 Squadron RCAF arrived in the UK February 1940 as an Army Cooperation squadron. It was renumbered as 400 Squadron at Odiham Hants., England , March 1, 1941.

Mike ..
Makes sense..The three uniformed members pictured are Leading Aircraft's Men..L.A.C.'s..(The little prop halfway between the shoulder and elbow..)
All Canadian RCAF Squadrons were allotted 400 series squadron numbers in this renumbering of Squadrons,..
Here is a little more info..

No. 110 Squadron

Nickname: City of Toronto

Authorized as No. 10 (Army Co-operation) Squadron (Auxiliary) at Toronto, Ontario on 5 October 1932, the unit commenced flying training in October 1934 when it received four Moth aircraft. Affiliation with Toronto was recognized on 15 April 1935 when the title "City of Toronto" was officially incorporated into its designation, and on 15 November 1937 the unit was renumbered No. 110 Squadron. Mobilized on 10 September 1939, it was assigned to the Canadian Active Service Force for overseas duty with the 1st Division; moved to Rockcliffe (Ottawa), Ontario, where it trained on Lysander aircraft; it left for England in February 1940. The unit anticipated early action, but with the fall of France it was relegated to further training. The squadron was renumbered No. 400 Squadron at Odiham, Hampshire on 1 March 1941.

[Larry Hayward]

Nice photo of what I think is an Albion AM463, especially as I am interested in RAF camo.

No doubt the vehicle was produced in RAF blue but hastily cammed up with green and brown or two shades of green (hard to tell), as was the case for RAF vehicles on bases in Southern England in summer of 1940.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Larry Hayward

Nice photo of what I think is an Albion AM463, especially as I am interested in RAF camo.

No doubt the vehicle was produced in RAF blue but hastily cammed up with green and brown or two shades of green (hard to tell), as was the case for RAF vehicles on bases in Southern England in summer of 1940.

Larry..
The RAF on the door of the truck and the RAF on the motorcycle license tell the vehicle story,but the motorcycle driver has the old style shoulder flash of the Royal Canadian Air Force..
Can't tell on the other two lads in uniform but are probably Canadian's also..

See the link..
http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/canada...calflash.shtml

Here is the RAF shoulder flash..
http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/britai...derflash.shtml
The CANADA can be clearly seen above the "G.U.11"..G.U.Eleven" aircraft..
(Our old hanger line joke for any seagull that happened by.."Oh there goes another squadron of G.U.Elevens.."!!!

[ted angus]

I would say that the ambulance and motorcycle photos are post january 1941, Up until that date RAF vehicles in UK were registered via the RAF Depot Uxbridge with Middlesex County Council. Both vehicles bear an "RAF 2345" format registration. Re the camo ; by jan 1941 few non camo vehicles remained. Although the first AMO detailing colours is dated august 1941 it is clear AMOs were preceded, often by several months, by signaled (telex) instructions or Directing Letters. I have found an AMO dated June 1941 clarifying the situation re cam finishes on impressed vehicles. also files unearthed at TNA Kew contain letters acknowledging units are procuring paint and undertaking such work at a local level. Furthermore I have found a document dated feb 1941 with contains the text " The RAF are following the Army in its choice of colours". I would strongly suggest because the dark tone in the photographs is very dark then it is Nobels Dark Tarmac Green No4 and the light colour is Khaki Green No 3 .( Nobels Dark Tarmac Green is known to be an extremely dark greyish colour )
Larry, for your camo interest I found a photo of the 4 sqn road convoy leaving Odiham in sept 1939 for the docks to embark for France and every vehicle was in camo. Also in the 8 feb 1940 edition of FLIGHT there is a picture of an Albion refuller in Camo but still carrying its twin circular orange or yellow airfield discs. see attached

[Noel Burgess]

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

[chrisgrove]

Hi guys

Having lived close to Odiham in my (long ago) youth, I would advise that it lies between Fleet and BASINGSTOKE (not to be confused with RAF Bassingbourn - not far from Cambridge).

It is now the place where the RAF's helicopters are based.

Nice pics. I like those Albions.

Chris

[Larry Hayward]

Ted,

Regarding RAF cammo I appreciate that units going to France and Middle East would have dispensed with RAF Blue but I have read in Mike Starmers books that RAF blue was still in use in the UK until circa summer 1940 when units, likely to come under air attack in Southern Britain, painted their vehicles in cammo, with what ever they had. Then, as you and Mike Starmer both say, the RAF conformed to Army schemes from 1941.

How strange then that you still see mid to late war RAF vehicles at rallies and on TV painted RAF blue!

Regarding the registrations of RAF vehicles do you know whether records are kept of these: I have the vehicle registrations for some vehicles used by the RAF but the records only refer in basic terms ie Tender or 30 cwt but do not say what make. I would be interested to find the vehicle type from the registration.

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

Noel great photo is there a date for it please

TED

[ted angus]

Larry, Mike and I have been in touch on various aspects of the subject.
I am certainly NOT directing this comment towards Mike's work but one big problem with research is many researchers have no in depth knowledge of the SERVICE (Army RAF RN ) that they are researching and consequently can easily misinterpret what they unearth. Orders , instructions, policy etc were promulgated from higher authority to units/stations by various means, signals(telex) directing letters and formal orders such as ACIs in the Army and AMOs in the RAF are 3 examples.. this is still the case ; as we prepared for gulf war one our camo painting instructions came by signal; in years to come researchers will scour DCIs etc but find next to nothing on the subject.
returning to the WW2 the earliest AMO originally found re camo was in the AMO A series A618/1941 of 7 Aug 1941. This is the AMO repeatedly used by various authors as the date the RAF went totally to camo for vehicles. After much digging I recently found an earlier AMO on the subject but rather strangely it is in the N series of AMOs N629/1941 of 5 june 1941 which states all impressed vehicles must be camo painted but not hired vehicles. So that alone brings forward by 2 months the previously considered start date.
The next thing is that the content of many AMOs would have been pre-notified by letter or signal because of the lead time on AMOs. AMOs were published several times a month; they were normally in the form of a booklet,the cover page gave the AMO numbers contained and a brief title of each AMO. Each batch normally took about 3 months from the different depts submitting AMOs to the collation, type setting, proof reading then printing, then distribution through the food chain.
The big problem is the files containing the signals and letter initiating actions in advance of the first AMO on the subject have no doubt long gone, all that seems to be left at TNA Kew are items from files involving RAE Farnborough whose chemists were heavily involved in developing the camo colours for both the RAF and Army for vehicles. From them I gleaned the ME theatre colours and also the statement that the RAF were following the same colours as the Army. Beyond that at the moment we can only go by photo graphic evidence and with the internet and greater exchange of images etc more and more evidence is coming to light. statements on the use of building and aircraft camo paints on MT has been repeated countless times in various publications. I no longer believe this to be the case in more than a handful of cases. Aircraft paint was extremely closely controlled by MoS later MAP etc , many aircraft were finished in cellulose which was not suitable for applying over the enamel paint that MT was finished in. At the outbreak of war most buildings were brick or concrete - the metal T2 and Bellman hangers came in mostly after the outbreak of hostilities- and the paint used on brick and concrete was not suitable for vehicles. A letter at TNA mentions the acknowledgement that units had been procuring their own supplies of vehicle camo paint. Its my guess that the colours would have been circulated as a guide by signal or letter and units would then have ordered what they could obtain and of course afford, from their LPO budgets.
The end result for us many years later is that only part of the story remains in the archives. Consequently it is too easy for researchers to be led to the wrong conclusions.
Turning to reg numbers I have been searching for 30 years for the pre 1949 ledgers, they were held by an RAF Maintenance Command HQ dept in Derby, but where they went once the new system was commenced nobody knows.
re vehicles in blue in preservation ask the majority of people at any show or rally what colour were RAF vehicles in the WW2 and they will say blue just as reputable model manufacturers are issueing kits of vehicles that never saw RAF service and the paint and markings guides with them give colours and marking again which were never used !!

Regards TED

[ted angus]

Larry, a couple of other snippets re the intro date of camo; On the RAF vehicle thread post 42 Les posted a piccy of camo RAF in France this pre dates May 1940; in various publications there is the suggestion that units in the south east began applying cam as the German attacks began; a ceremony up here over the weekend reminded me the first over UK kill was 603 Sqn operating out of Turnhouse, long before S.E,. airfield were attacked Turnhouse along with the nearby Rosyth naval base were receiving regular unwanted attention.
TED

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

I think we can safely date this picture; All Field Force vehicles of the BEF Air Component and the Advanced Air Striking Force were to bear a 2 or 3 inch high 3 digit number preceded with an A for admin purposes as it was not permissible to mark vehicles with a sqn or unit marking for security purposes. The BEF Air Component embarked in late august /early sept 1939, so my conclusion is within that 4 week window. .
The trailer can be identified as a 3 ton Brockhouse by its torsion bar suspension, its RAF description is a Trailer 3 ton Photographic Type J.

TED

[Noel Burgess]

Ted
Sorry did not keep a note of the photo date and can't find it online right now. It is part of the Charles Brown collection and was one of a series of prints offered for sale for some commemorative/fundraising purpose [pretty sure I first read about it on this forum] I took copies of one or two "for research purposes" and below is another of a similar trailer
Noel
P.S. this is the first time I've seen use of the "Hats, Sun" on an airfield

[ted angus]

Thanks for sharing Noel, possibly the hats are for identification purposes possibly a pre hostilities war game ?? Normally these trailers would be shoehorned into a hedgerow etc the civvy car appears to have unmasked headlights ??

regards TED

[Larry Hayward]

Ted I understand what you are saying regarding the records but from what you have found so far, when do you think RAF blue was overpainted on 'frontline' RAF vehicles in the UK during WW2; Sept 1939 or post Dunkirk?

[ted angus]

From the photo evidence, units issued with warning orders for service with the Air Component Field Force would possibly have commenced camo painting late july /early August 1939, whilst most of the warned units embarked for France some didn't. General Alert was called about a week before the famous speech. From what I have read in Operational Order Books, Station and Sqn war books contained lists of measures to be initiated as the alert state went up. I would think camo painting would have been one along with aircraft dispersal, sandbagging, opening and equiping shelters etc etc. So my best guess is it commenced on non Field Force units in the weeks or week prior to declaring war.
Larry you use the word "Frontline"; as far as the RAF in UK was concerned it is difficult to quantify frontline; we could say Biggin Hill North Weald etc etc. most publications say the south east of England was the frontline, but this is something else I don't fully subscribe to. Turnhouse and Drem were the first frontline units as German based ac attacked their sectors in a bid to hit Rosyth and of course the protecting aerodromes. In addition the RAF crane on a 42 Group Maintenance Command Maintenance Unit loading bombs, oxygen cylinders and fuel into railway waggons for delivery to the operational aerodromes was to me as big a target as many airfields and therefore equally frontline in the context we are mulling over. . Even the barrage balloon winch trucks seem to have received a lick of camo very early on. I wish I could spend a month at Kew and Hendon and with the air historical branch; when the answers are found I don't think it will be a "tell all" document but it will be a one sentence comment in something like a Station or Sqn operations log that will reveal some key parts of the jigsaw.
Regards
TED

[Noel Burgess]

Ted (and anyone else who might be interested) I think I've found a date and description for the second trailer photo I posted...
"Photo developer or maybe flight office at Hornchurch 1940, 25 Sqn Blenhiem Mk1"

Noel

[ted angus]

Hi Noel its a real head scratcher been looking at 25 sqn history, Hornchurch was never one of their bases so they were either using it as a satalite or forward base etc.
on the right is a guy carrying what looks like an over coat, yet the 2 mystery men have daft hats. no blackout masks on the cars, no attempt to hide the trailer no criss cross tape on the windows, ?? turning to the 2 strange men they have a uniform of overalls with a pocket at each breast, these pockets have silver buttons, the ankle of the trouser is gathered in but they only appear to have shoes on. on each of THIER right breasts just below the pocket is an emblem or badge ?/

Some of Charles Brown's work is published in a series of books Cameras above the clouds 4 volumes selling for big bucks may be the picture is in there.
regards
TED

[ted angus]

Noel just had a look at the Artique gallery website Charles Brown album there is a piccy of a MK1 Blenhiem being refuelled . Again Hornchurch the bowser is in plain colour open headlights but has the same lumps of grass as the trailer. the tile say Hornchurch 1939; so my money stays on a Home Defence exercise pre hostilities 1939

TED

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

Ted (and anyone else who might be interested) I think I've found a date and description for the second trailer photo I posted...
"Photo developer or maybe flight office at Hornchurch 1940, 25 Sqn Blenhiem Mk1"

Noel

Noel have been comparing with my photo tender pictures I think all the trailers with the window at the front and the extractor fan are flight offices,
the photo vans and trailers of a very similar design didn't have the window at the front, what's your thoughts chaps
TED

[Noel Burgess]

Just a quick thought on the "sun hat" men in the picture I posted - they, and the sitting figure who is writing/drawing, appear to have white shirts as well as the points about there clothes which Ted noticed. Could it be possible that they are visiting "boffins" an that the white hats are to make them stand out for safety reasons??
Noel

[ted angus]

Noel I showed one of my sons the picture he is also heavily into RAF history; I think we are all singing from the same sheet boffins; observers, or similar. Their jackets/trousers/coveralls do not conform to anything that is obviously RAF.
I found an RAF Data book sheet that describes the Office trailers mounted on Brockhouse and Eagle chassis and the split opening front window and extractor vent cowl fit perfectly; I will endeavour to get the rest of pages that make up the sheet , which should give a picture.
TED

[Larry Hayward]

Ted & Noel,

Sorry I've just seen your post - regarding the dark uniformed men in white hats - I can say for certain that they are not boffins! Having researched the Special Duty Flight and Telecommunications Flying Unit etc that did radar research I can tell you that boffins always turned up in civi clothes and mostly flew in them too at low altitude

I'm wondering if these men are therefore Observer Corps

[Larry Hayward]

Ted - here is an example of boffins at work and the camo on the radar trailer that dates to 23rd December 1940. The photo was taken at Sopley (but in the field opposite the site that later became RAF Sopley).

Any idea of the camo colours?

[ted angus]

Hi Larry I would suggest Khaki green No 3 with the other being Light green No 5 or Nobels Dark Tarmac green No 4. most likely the latter. I will see if I can find any observer Corp pics of that era but pre- and early hostility I think they wore civvies with a police "on- duty" striped wristlet ?/
TED