Falaise Gap: Hill 140 drama

[Crewman]

For those of you, my friends, who are the Canadians interested in your WWII military history there is no need to describe the BCR and Algonquin Regt. tragedy at Hill 140 on August 9th, 1944 in Normandy. In my opinion this is the hardest point of the inter-Allied relations between the Canadians and the Poles in the Falaise Gap.

I have never seen Lt.-Col. Don Worthington photograph. Would not you like to post his portrait if you have it of course?

And one more question: I know Hill 140 drama from various Canadian books but I have never met an information if both Lt-Cols. and regimental COs Don Worthington (BCR) and Don Hay (Algonquin) were decorated posthumously? Do you know something about it?


Best regards

C.

[Chris Johnson]

There is a new book on Operation TOATALIZE just coming from the printer now. It should be available by the end of the month. See:

http://www.rbstudiobooks.com/NHB1.html

for further information.

Cheers,

Chris

[John McGillivray]

This sounds good. I look forward to getting a copy.

[Crewman]

Hi,

Thank you very much for the information about new Totalize-focused book. 500 pages and 120 photos, maps and charts look like Operation Totalize encyclopedia. So far the data related to the Totalize have been dispersed between hundreds of Canadian, British and Polish books.

But frankly speaking I do not know what to say when I see that this book offers the third national theory on the subject of "who destroyed Michael Wittmann's tank". Polish theory states that Wittmann's tank was destroyed by Sherman Firefly commanded by Sgt. Leon Wojtynowski of the Polish 2nd Armoured Regiment. The British theory states that Wittmann's tank was destroyed by Sherman Firefly commanded by Maj. S. V. Radley-Walters of the British "A" Squadron, 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry Regiment. The newest Canadian theory seems to suggest that Wittmann was killed by the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment tank. Perhaps.

I wish all three Allies next fruitful researches, conferences, seminars, workshops, books and articles to prove that "we" killed Wittmann. All three national theories clearly show that in fact nobody knows where Wittmann's tank was on August 8th, 1944 because these three regiments were not in the same place. Only Polish 2nd Regt. and the British 1st were together in one place within two hours approximately but it means nothing of course. But Polish 2nd, British 1st and the Canadian Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment met nowhere on August 8th, 1944. I do not want to comment it longer because it comments itself. For me this inter-Allied rivalry and a dance on the Wittmann's grave is unacceptable. It is hard to find in-depth analysis why the Allies had so many problems during Operation Totalize but the most important thing is "who killed Wittmann". Both Polish Maj.-Gen. Stanislaw Maczek and Canadian Maj.-Gen. George Kitching offer half-truths in their books but the most important thing is "who killed Wittmann". The Polish authors write various anti-Canadian rubbish, the Canadian authors write various anti-Polish rubbish, and all of them are related to the Operation Totalize, but the most important thing is "who killed Wittmann". This is an international view of the Operation Totalize in ex-Allied countries.

I hope that the newest "No Holding Back" book will change something. I will buy this book as soon as possible and maybe we will discuss about it in the weeks to come.

One more time thanks for the info

Best regards

C.

[Chris Johnson]

I have to be careful what I write as I have had some minor involvement in the book, but having read his endnotes, it's safe to say that Brian Reid has done the most comprehensive primary research to date.

Cheers,

Chris

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
I have to be careful what I write as I have had some minor involvement in the book, but having read his endnotes, it's safe to say that Brian Reid has done the most comprehensive primary research to date.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris,

Thank you for your reply. Would not you like to write something about your involvement in this book? Did you research anything for the author?

I would love to know how took place the research of all Polish threads of the Operation Totalize because we have to remember that Polish 1st Armoured Division was one of two main armoured forces of this operation together with the Canadian 4th Armoured Division. So far serious weak point of all Canadian books dedicated to Operations Totalize, Tractable and closing the Falaise Gap has been lack of in-depth research in Polish sources as well as lack of interviews with the Polish veterans of these battle episodes, meanwhile many Polish ETO tankers live in Canada and such a research is not so hard. The Canadian authors also do not research London-based Polish Gen. Sikorski's Institute and Museum that has full Polish documentation of this battle episode. I am afraid that the only one source of information about Polish Division is 1st Canadian Army archive. But unfortunately the same goes for the Polish authors that do not research any other sources than Polish Institute at London.

As I can see only Donald E. Graves used French edition of Polish Maj.-Gen. Stanislaw Maczek's momoirs when he wrote his "South Albertas. A Canadian Regiment at War". But Maczek's book is not so good, the same as all other Generals' books. The Generals tell us what they want to tell, not necessarily what we are interested in. The Generals' publicistic offer are half-truths and next we do have such spectacles as 60 years long American-Polish veterans' spectacle under the title of "Who captured Chambois?" in the Falaise Gap. Ehhh, long stories...


Best regards

C.

[Chris Johnson]

I don't have a copy of the book yet myself, but if memory serves correctly, Brian utilized the Sikorski Institute in his research.

Cheers,

Chris

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
I have to be careful what I write as I have had some minor involvement in the book, but having read his endnotes, it's safe to say that Brian Reid has done the most comprehensive primary research to date.

Cheers,

Chris

It's funny, but the cynic in me is struck by the irony of all this attention devoted over the years to the death of one man in a war which took 50,000,000 souls.

Regardless, I shall like to read this new work for its hiostorical perspective. I only hope he's personalized it a bit in the way in which Graves was so successful. "Who went where when and did what" is interesting and significant, of course, but the soldiers' tales are equally so, and to me, perhaps a bit more so than dry history.

[Chris Johnson]

Ultimately, the reader will have to be the final judge on the readabilty of the book but I can say that Brian has addressed the Wittmann issue in the body of the text from the perspective that it wasn't important who knocked him out but the importance lay in the fact that the German counterattack was defeated. He does include an appendix at the end of the book on the mechanics of Wittmann's death because of the attention that is generated by his name. There are some interesting observations and conclusions in this appendix too.

Cheers,

Chris

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
It's funny, but the cynic in me is struck by the irony of all this attention devoted over the years to the death of one man in a war which took 50,000,000 souls.

Geoff,

You are absolutely right.

For me much more important is the fact that our, the Polish and the Canadian, tanks fought together in the Operation Totalize to capture Estrées-la-Campagne and Quesnay for instance than "who killed Wittmann". As the Falaise Gap researcher and military history publicist I would like to discover at first why the Poles were absent at the Hill 140 if they had Gen. Crerar's order to be there than "who killed Wittmann". It would be also more important to stopp American-Polish strife for treatment of the German POWs at Chambois, and who killed more POWs there, than "who killed Wittmann".

"Who killed Wittmann" is not important throughout. What is important they are the efforts in aid of new publicistic culture related to common British-Canadian-Polish history of the Operation Totalize and the days after. I do not want to see the bullshits in Polish books that the Canadians were not at Trun, on the other hand I do not want to see the bullshits in the Canadian books that the Poles "have run out of food and ammunition because of the inefficiency of their organization" (quotation from the Canadian book). These are important things, not "who killed Witmann".

That is why you have to forgive us guys both "a cynic in Geoff" and my sarcasm from time to time.

Best regards

C.

[John McGillivray]

One minor point. Maj. S. V. Radley-Walters was Canadian and not British. He was the commander of A Sqn of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

[Crewman]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
One minor point. Maj. S. V. Radley-Walters was Canadian and not British. He was the commander of A Sqn of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.

Pardon, you are right. According to Ken Tout Maj. S. V. Radley-Walters' Firefly hit Wittmann's tank for the first time but his Tiger was still serviceable. Next hit came, most likely, from Joe Elkins' British Firefly codenamed "3 Charlie" but perhaps it was not the last hit. Hard to say, there is also "RAF thread" in this success, or maybe RCAF(?), who knows, not only RAF used the Typhoon fighters.

The success has great number of the fathers , fiasco is an orpham...

Best

C.

[Waycool]

No Holding back looks very interesting, I have emailed the publisher to order a copy. This looks to be quite an indepth analysis of Totalize I can't wait to get my grubby mits on it

[Crewman]

Last days I tried to buy this book as well but at all online places I know this book is not available yet and they inform that it will be on the market in July.

Best

C.

[Crewman]

Well, at present I would like to ask you for consultation and your opinions in the question of who in Canada, and in what a book, prepared the best analysis of the Hill 140 drama? Who described in the most detailed form both Canadian tragedy and Polish absence at Hill 140? I think that it would be hard to find Canadian book dedicated to the Normandy Campaign without smaller or greater description of Hill 140 tragedy but who in your opinion researched it in the most comprehensive manner? Professor Reginald H. Roy? Professor Terry Copp? Col. Charles P. Stacey? The other authors?

Thank you in advance for all your possible opinions.

Best regards

C.

[Crewman]

Hi,

And does anyone know this new book on the Operation Totalize?

This is business phenomenon for me. The book impossible to buy. The only one online distributor of this book is the publisher which has its online order form out of order and does not reply the emails to inform how to buy this book


Best regards

C.

[Chris Johnson]

From the appearance of the title page, which is exactly the same as in the original study, this will simply be a reprint/photocopy of the original, which someone is selling for profit.

Cheers,

Chris

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
From the appearance of the title page, which is exactly the same as in the original study, this will simply be a reprint/photocopy of the original, which someone is selling for profit.

Hi,

Of course, and I am ready to give required 30.00 pounds for this book but this business phenomenon is in the fact that the book is offered here meanwhile online order form is out of order and nobody answers the emails with simple question if it is possible to order this book in other way. The same goes for other books of this publisher. Did it bancrupt?

Best regards

C.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I have spoken with Radley-Walters (Or just "Rad" as he's known in the Corps) 2 yrs ago when he visited the Regt (he was a Dragoon too) about the Wittman case, he told me he did not think he made the kill shot. He recalled hitting Wittman but having to shift targets and when he looked again, the tank he took to be Witmann's was exploding. Straight from the horses mouth.

Nice man with a great amount of stories. He was really really hard on our subbies as I take it to be a pet peeve of his that subbies must be well- prepared and trained for battle.

He moved from his farm and had to give up some of his trophys so we (the RCD) have his Golden Sherman and Ferret here. The Armd School in Gagetown has his Lynx on display now too.

Great man.

regards
D

[Chris Johnson]

That fits with his letter to Brian Reid where he takes credit for a Jagdpanzer IV coming up the N158 towards his defensive position just to the west of the N158, behind a stone wall, in Gaumesnil. His squadron consisted of eight Shermans at that point, two of which were Fireflies.

He recalled that the attack moved as a group with five Tigers leading, well spaced, with four at the front and the fifth leading a number of PzKpfw IVs, Jagdpanzers and half-tracks. One of the Tigers was running close beside the highway, followed by two Jagdpanzers advancing on the highway itself. Rad advised that he was hollering on the squadron net to "hold off, hold off" until they got reasonably close. His squadron opened fire at approximately 500 yards. The Tiger closest to the road was knocked out and Rad's gunner accounted for a Jagdpanzer on the N158 itself. Tiger 007, as we know now, was the Tiger closest to the N158 and it's hulk was situated virtually directly across from Rad's position.

He further advised that in addition to his squadron there were two Fireflies of 'B' Sqn slightly further north, in the area of La Jalousie, which also engaged the advancing Tigers.

On the British side, we know that 'A' Sqn 1NY were in defensive position in an orchard some 800 yards to the east of the advancing Tigers but what is usually not factored into the equation was that 'B' Sqn 144 RAC was to the north, just east of Pt 122, which was the objective of the German counterattack. Therefore, the Germans unknowingly moved straight into a trap composed of 'A' Sqn and two Fireflies of 'B' Sqn SFR on the west, 'A' Sqn 1NY to the east and 'B' Sqn 144 RAC to the north.

As for 1. Dywizji Pancernej, it wasn't near the Cintheaux area as it was preparing to attack south, on the east side of St. Aignan at 1355 hrs, approximately an hour after Wittmann's demise.

There is no doubt that the evidence supports the fact that 'A' Sqn 1NY knocked out three Tigers, as is laid out in their War Diary, but the evidence presented by Reid supports the conclusion that 'A' Sqn SFR accounted for a fourth Tiger, and that was Wittmann's.

Rad's letter is quoted in one of Reid's appendixes titled: "Who Killed Michael Wittmann", in his book No Holding Back. Interesting reading and I'm just finishing the book now.

Cheers,

Chris

[Crewman]

Hello,

I indeed wanted to discuss about Hill 140 but… what to do...

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
As for 1. Dywizja Pancerna, it wasn't near the Cintheaux area as it was preparing to attack south, on the east side of St. Aignan at 1355 hrs, approximately an hour after Wittmann's demise.

I agree.

The Polish statement that the Polish 1st Armoured Division destroyed Wittmann's tank is pure absurdity and propaganda. We can tell all possible things about the Polish activities on August 8th but not the sensational message that the Poles destroyed single German tank then. It was the day of unsuccessful combat debut of the Polish division. At first the Poles broke the order to attack southwards and turned left, eastwards, from Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil. That is why they clashed into the 1st NY which episode is well-described in Professor Ken Tout's book "A Fine Night For Tanks". This part of the Polish Division which disorganized the rear of 1st NY was heavily beaten, dispersed, disorganized and nobody fought then successfully against the group of the Tigers. I mean the time between 1335 hours and 1600.


Best regards

C.

[John McGillivray]

This is from Hubert Meyer’s book “The History of the 12. SS-Panzerdivision Hitlerjugend”, concerning the end of Wittman.(p174-175)

The medical officer of Schwere Panzerabteilung 101, Hauptsturmführer Dr. Wolfgang Rabe, M.D., observed the battle of the Tigers from some distance away. Four of them had taken up positions along a country lane leading in a northerly direction from Cintheaux, approximately 300 meters away from the Route Nationale. They were sitting between a high, thick hedge and a row of low bushes running parallel on its left. Dr. Rabe wrote:

"Wittmann and 4 or 5 Tigers were east of the road leading to Caen. I was off to the side. The Tigers came under fire, reported to be directly from English 15 cm guns. Several Tigers went up in flames and I tried to determine whether anyone was getting out. Since I could not see anybody, I assumed that some had left the Panzers by way of the ground hatch and I tried to get closer. That was not possible either since, as soon as I left the ditch in an easterly direction, I came under fire. We waited for another one or two hours, to see if any crew member might still show up. Toward evening I drove over to Brigadeführer Kraemer (chief of staff of I. SS-Panzerkorps, Author) and reported to him on what had happened. He directed me, as I was the longest serving officer of the Abteilung, to lead the remnants of the Abteilung back and assigned me to Wünsche."

When Obersturmbannführer Max Wünsche learned that Michel Wittmann was missing, he had a search started for him. Untersturmführer Horst Borgsmüller reported:

"I was given an order to search for Wittmann and his crew to the right and left of N 158. My driver, Sturmmann Klein, and I drove first in the direction of Hautmesnil. Dusk was setting in and I could not make out any details. After some time we came under machine gun fire from the right of the road. The search of the terrain and the dressing stations was unsuccessful. I heard from some Grenadiers that Tigers had been knocked out by enemy anti-tank guns to the right of the road. Obersturmführer Wendorf of the Tigerabteilung could not tell me anything either. On orders from Hauptsturmführer Isecke I drove once more in the direction of Grainville during the night. The command post of Obersturmbannführer Mohnke was located there. He warned me against driving on since the enemy had already closed in. We tried to go on for a short distance. Then flares shot into the sky and we came under fire, again from the right."

Some French citizens from St. Aignan-de Gaumesnil saw a Tiger sitting in that area at a country lane leading from St. Aignan to Gaumesnil after the fighting had stopped. Four more Tigers were seen along the country lane from St. Aignan to Cintheaux. One of those had its turret ripped off. The battle diary recorder of the Tigerabteilunq, Rottenfuhrer Herbert Debusmann, was assigned to collect ammunition in that area while still a prisoner of war in 1947. He still found all five previously mentioned destroyed or immobilized Tigers as well as two Panzer IVs in the vicinity. The turret of one Tiger, with the number 007, had been ripped off. It had been the commander's Panzer. Obersturmbannführer von Westernhagen, the Abteilung commander, had not taken part in this battle, sidelined by an illness. Among other matters, Herbert Debusmann related in his report:

"The turret of '007'—it was in the very rear of the four Panzers—was lying on the ground several meters away from the hull.I do not believe that the question whether Michel Wittmann was in this Panzer can be answered. The fact was that he disliked using a staff Panzer or commander's Panzer since they carried approximately 30 fewer shells, because of their ground-to-air radio equipment, than the other Panzers. Some 1.500 meters away from that spot, in the direction of Caen but further away from the Route Nationale, sat another Tiger of 2. Kompanie. It had not been knocked out but looked completely serviceable. It showed no damage to the tracks and I could not determine any other mechanical defect. The Panzer had not been blown up and was still carrying its full supply of ammunition."

Since no members of the Tiger crews who fought near Cintheaux survived the war, maybe not even the Normandy battles, nothing totally reliable may ever be established regarding the last battle of Michel Wittmann.

[Crewman]

Hi John,

Thanks for very interesting and informative post.

Originally written by Hubert Meyer
Four of them had taken up positions along a country lane leading in a northerly direction from Cintheaux, approximately 300 meters away from the Route Nationale. They were sitting between a high, thick hedge and a row of low bushes running parallel on its left.

This short text shows several interesting things and various aspects of the WWII, also social-psychological ones.

At first other thing however -- Hubert Meyer and/or Dr. Wolfgang Rabe mistakes two villages: Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil and Gaumesnil. No such a village as "Saint-Aignan-de-Gaumesnil". If we look at the maps of Normandy and the maps of the Totalize Phase II then it can be clearly seen that:

▪ Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil is situated at east side of Caen-Falaise road and the south end of this village was a holding area for the Polish 1st Armoured Division on August 8th;

▪ Gaumesnil is situated at west side of Caen-Falaise road, the same as Cintheaux mentioned, and the south end of Cintheaux was a holding area for the Canadian 4th Armoured Division on August 8th;

▪ No "Saint-Aignan-de-Gaumesnil" which is mistaken hybrid of two various village names.

It was to establish order only.


"Ad rem":

1. Hubert Meyer and Wolfgang Rabe's text, as well as entire Wittmann's case study shows that the German tanks operated at the Canadian rear, at the area that theoretically ought to be free of the Germans. What may be interesting Maj.-Gen. George Kitching does not mention that on August 8th his division had the problems at the rear.

2. Sad to tell for me but it shows also a mix of incompetence and propaganda of at least one Polish author who wrote that the Polish tank killed Wittmann's Tiger. No chance -- how and where? At west side of Caen-Falaise road in the Canadian sector of the operations? By a long-distance lucky hit from the Long Tom gun far from the east side of Caen-Falaise road? Unfortunately we do have one such a funny guy who published this information without single footnote at it or description of his wide international consultation and research at this phenomenon.


Best regards

C.

[Waycool]

This morning Canada Post delivered a package into my mailbox, enclosed was No Holding Back the latest work by Brian Reid. Being the way I am I immediately ripped the packaging open much like a kid on christmas, I love goodies

Let me just give a quick overview of the title which I cannot wait to dive into reading. No Holding back looks to be well laid out, with lots of data, loads of charts, maps, diagrams, photos, etc. Full index, bibliography, notes and multiple appendix very detailed. Now this is how a book should be written and published. Brian and Chris thanks for putting together such a fine book, I will be reading it very shortly. If the content (which I am sure it will be) is as good as all the extras this book is a winner and worthy of adding to your library.

Kudos Brian.


Michael

[Crewman]

You lucky man!!

I have to sit and wait till July...

If somebody knows a magic method to buy it sooner being at THIS side of the ocean and having the credit card -- let me know please.


Best regards

C.


PS. Because we are in the thread dedicated to Hill 140, or Point 140, drop the line please what the author writes about it and about Polish absence at this place.

[John McGillivray]

Hello Crewman,

I have just finished reading Brian Reid’s book “No Holding Back”. It is excellent!

It goes into much detail about the planning and conduct of Operation Totalize. The Poles are shown in a favourable light with little criticism directed their way. The person, who receives the harshest criticism, is the commander of the 4th Canadian Armoured Brigade, Brigadier E.L. Booth.

Kitching is criticized for being too nice of a guy. He found Booth passed out drunk on the floor of his tank on the 8th of August. Booth should have being fired and arrested on the spot, however, Kitching left him off the hook and allowed him to keep his job. Big mistake.

Ried also makes a good argument to show that it was a Firefly from the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment that killed Michael Wittmann.

John

[Col Tigwell]

Whilst there were countless people of all armies and all armed forces, whose profesionalizem left much to be desired, there are also many occasions where german forces exercised compasion and a truelly professional approach to their duties., and showing compassion to their ememies.

As a returned servicemen, I can well understand that one has very mixed feeling about how things pan out.

What I find a little disapointing, is the disposal and apparent lack of retrevial, of many of the war dead. Surely they deserve a more fitting end, than to be buried in some field and forgotten.

Michael Wittmann, appears to be one of Germanies finest tank commanders, and yet today he lies hardly marked in a German war grave, with just his name and date of birth.

Discovered by accident by men building a road, the powers that be thought more of removing his tank, than its crew.

Looking at the photos of the grave. .
of him and his crew, the markers really tell nothing other than the names.

Is this normal practice.

I recently attended a metting where the guest speaker was a German Air Force Pilot, and when I raised a question with him, I addressed him by his proper rank. Afterwards he came up and said " You must be a flier to, I appreciate that you addressed me correctly, been a long time and it made me feel real good.

In talking with him one on one, I came to understand, that the problems of service life are the same, it was just that he was led by a madman.

History shows clearly that Michael was a find commander, and for that he has my respect.

Regards

Col Tigwell

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by herkman
What I find a little disapointing, is the disposal and apparent lack of retrevial, of many of the war dead. Surely they deserve a more fitting end, than to be buried in some field and forgotten.

Michael Wittmann, appears to be one of Germanies finest tank commanders, and yet today he lies hardly marked in a German war grave, with just his name and date of birth.

Two points, Col... first, on the type of double-intense battlefields such as was Normandy, the dead from both sides were left where they fell, to be identified and buried by followup forces (usually by the padres). Of course, they went to great pains to identify our men and record the locations of their graves for retrieval in future, but the simple fact is the German casualties had no such service, and were usually put under the ground as fast as possible (it could have been the other way around had the Germans been winning). It may not have been right, but it was the necessity of the times.

Secondly, every German military cemetery I've been in on the continent (not very many I grant you) has its dead buried two, three or even five to a grave. I presume it was sometime after the war when German authorities organized the retrieval, identification and interrment of its fallen; inevitably, as has happened to us as well, bodies are missed and only come to light years later, and no, some can never be identified. It's just a guess but I suggest the percentage is about the same for both sides.

[Col Tigwell]

Thank you for explaining the real facts to me.

The older I get, the more I find I have to learn.

Even though I do not own a WW2 vehicle, I have great interest in what you guys are preserving.

Governments in the main do not understand the need to preserve history at its source.

The Australian Air Force museum, was started by two NCO's who believed strongly that our history should be preserved, and they went out and made it happen.

I suspect that after WW2, many museums around the world started in exactly the same way.

It is guys like you, who will leave these treasures behind, and hopefully the young people of today will understand, how an important part of history they are.

Regards

Col Tigwell
Downunder

[klambie]

Wittman is buried at Le Cambe with 21,000 of his comrades, and is officially commemerated exactly as the rest of them are. If memory serves, you are correct in indicating that he is buried with his crew. Unoficially, his grave is something of a shrine with all manner of mementos left.

Are you advocating a different memorial for him? Who else would qualify?