2010 at the Hammond Barn

[Bob Carriere]

This old friend of mine, which I had not seen in over 33 years found me thanks to my postings on MLU...... just can't hide.

Anyways Guy dropped by on Sunday and after a long walk through memory lane left me with a CD of old 4x4 club outings from the mid seventies..... man what a ride..... those were my Dodge years driving surplus M37 and M43.

At the risk of embarrassing myself.... something I would never do.... I will post some of the pictures....stay tuned.

In retrospect..... life as been pretty good......

Bob

[Ganmain Tony]

Very keen to see any photos Carriere Kenievel in action.

Cmon lads, keep the pictures coming - including ones of your Carbie set up Boob.

Dont be wimps with the W1. They aint that hard!!

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Encountered a slight technical difficulty on SUnday while driving my C15a chassis.

AS you know Rob and I have had our stock Rochester B carburators rebuilt and flow tested by the Oak brothers in TO. Both our vehicles now run so ever much better...... and they look brand new.

Well I was driving mine in the back field using just a fast idle setting when I decided to see if it would climb the steep...45 degree... pile of wood chip located in a corner of the back field. Amazing.... in low gear.....few times and noticed that at a steep angle the carb was flowing raw gas ...literaly dripping gas...... not a good thing if all those fumes could collect inside the engine compartment......did not seem to affect engine performance...

I raised my problem on the Stove bolt site and CarbKing confirmed that I may have exceeded the design of the civilian Rochester B carb which is intended for flat street driving. .... He recommended sourcing a military carburator that would have been original on a GMC 270 engine.

Phil have you had any similar experience with your new 261/Rochester combo?

...
Bob

Hi Bob

Interesting issue, maximum angle of operation for Rochester B Carb. First I'll have to do some checking in Chev parts book remember seeing that 261 engine was fitted in heavy 4x4 Chev trucks. I'll look to see if a different carb or float setting is listed.

I have another NOS B Carb on the shelf I'll hook it up to the electric fuel pump and see what happens at various angles. Problem may be something stupid like that the current electric fuel pumps put out a little more pressure than the stock manual pumps as originally equipped. I'll check numbers but I think it is putting out 2-3 PSI more than needed.

Did discover something that you may want to take into consideration if you are going to operate your 261 at extreme angle, keep an eye on the oil pressure. Discovered recently that my 261 at full song going down the highway is pumping so much oil up into the engine that if you hit the brakes going into a sweeping left hand turn the oil pressure will suddenly drop from 42 PSI to under 5 PSI momentarily.

I have the 261 4x4 sump oil pan but it doesn't have the lower baffle found on the military 216. My surmise is that when you hit the brakes and turn left the oil sloshes forward away from the oil pickup allowing it to suck air for a moment. This doesn’t show up on the normal instrument panel gage which are slow reading due to their small tube size on my CMP with the standard 216 oil gage that reads 0-30 SI it is pegged almost all the time. I installed a second fast reading pressure gage which reads 0-80 PSI this one shows the pressure fluctuations. Got to do some more research on this issue.

I have done some studies on what grade and side angles the original 216 systems could work at, I’ll have to put the pictures and notes together and post them.

[gjamo]

This fuel starvation issue at extreme angles is why Dodge came up with their concentric bowl carby.
Graeme

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Graeme....

Tell me more about this egocentric carb..... what model - year-application are we talking about...??

Strange thing about the Rochester....while leaking at that funny angle the engine never missed a beat amd kept running at the same RPM..... I would have expected it to flood or starve....

Bob C.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Graeme....

Tell me more about this egocentric carb..... what model - year-application are we talking about...??

Strange thing about the Rochester....while leaking at that funny angle the engine never missed a beat amd kept running at the same RPM..... I would have expected it to flood or starve....

Bob C.

Bob..They are similar to the ones on the Volvo's you have sitting in your back fourty..
I used to repair..clean and tune my dads '63 Volvo wagon when I was just home on leave from the Air Force..
Leaned about them from an old Dutchman that was the only resident expert on them for Volvo's in Halifax in the early '60's..
Here is the carb we are taking about(Not exactly like the Volvo ,but similar,,.)

http://www.ingfatrygg.se/amal.html

[Bob Carriere]

Alex

Those were SOB sidedraft carbs...... how does it compare to the Dodge carb Graeme is referring to...?

Now you are going to tell me that all those Volvo carbs/cars that we sent to the junk dealer were priceless.... !!!!

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Interesting comments about the oil pressure..... I was so busy staying in the seat and watching the raw gas leak out I never checked the gauges. As you know I have extra mechanical guages for the test runs. The strange part is that even at high angle the engine never faltered.....same steady fast idle.... and I repeated going up the stack of wood chips at least 3 or 4 times....rear end of the frame was almost dragging on the ground.

Will try a repeat performance this weekend if the weather cooperate and I can get a Rob to video the event.

Now I am concerned about dropping oil pressure..... it may be that with such a short duration at high angle and with the two large spin on oil filters it akes a while for the air to travel in the line by the sensor for the gauge.

In any event it seems I need to find the kind of carburator that may have been installed on the GMC 270..... but.... from my 1955-59 civvy GM manuals they show and list the same Rochester B as the 261.

CarbKing from Stovebolt recommended the YF879S as an alternative.... foundout they were used in Internationals 6 in the 261 to 282 c.i. size.

So far no such carb is for sale with any of the carb places I checked on the web.

This weekend I will dig out a spare intake manifold and design a jig that will allow me to test various carburators at different angles.... basically an oversize protractor..... load up the carb bowl with red diesel ... less danger... and have a one gallon tank piped in above the carb to simulate some line pressure......tilt by hand an record finding. Will photo for the record.

I will try out a proverbial W-1 for base line followed by various Rochesters and YF that are the wrong size but basically same configuration. I even have a nos military 235 mid 70 Rochester that I can try....

While rummaging in the various boxes of spare carbs I found one I had squirrelled away back in the mid 70s....NOS taken from a 6 cylinder military engine stored in old plywood box.... it is the waterproof type....Holley I beleive and double barrell..... possibly an early 2 1/2 deuce.... will show to Grant he should recognize it.....According to pictures in an old motor truck manual circa 1953...Carb is a Holley 885ffg from a large international engine....or a GMC 270 or 288 c.i.

The other more dangerous but more fun plan is to run the engine at fast idle and lift the front end gradually with the front loader of the tractor and record oil pressure and leaks at various angle..... than lift the rearend and repeat the tests.....

The oil pressure issue maybe easier to solve with baffles, a in-line pressure tank with a gallon capacity like the extreme 4x4 rock crawler use to maintain oil pressure...... or a dry sump hihihi.

I am more concerned with raw gas leaking around a hot manifold within an enclosed engine compartment.....

There as to be a way as original 216 with Carter W-1 were tested in very steep hills just outisde Ottawa at the DND proving grounds.... they have various hill sizes.... the interesting ones are at 45 and the steep one at 50+degrees...... or may be it is just my imagination.... but the last one still visible from the road way would be hard to walkup on foot.....

So stay tuned and if one finds a YF 879 let me know.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Can not remember are your filters mounted open end up or down? Reason I ask is that on my 261 in Beauty the filter is mounted open or screw-on end up and I always fill it with oil when I change it. In that position any air in the filter is immediately pushed through by the oil coming in. So as long as the engine is pumping oil it should flow through OK.

I tried an experiment with the 235 engine on the test stand mounting spin on filter closed end up screw-on end down. This leaves an air bubble trapped in the top of the filter. No evident effect on the oil pressure accept when the engine stops the oil pressure bleed down is considerably longer. Mounting the filter this way though makes changing them a mess.

Going up the hill should not be a problem as the pump and pick up should be in the deep end of the oil pan. It would be going down that the oil could flow away from the pickup. I retried my truck on steep down grade low RPM no noticeable pressure change. My oil pressure drop may only occur at full song on the engine 2800-3000 rpm. So I suspect that it just the amount of oil these pumps are pushing up into the engine.

As we discussed before the big spin on filters and the 1/2" lines running to them do act as an oil cooler. Takes a long time to get the oil up to operating temp.

Keep us posted on your carb angle experiments. Good idea using diesel fuel I was just going to use gas, but your way is safer, but how much more or less viscus is diesel and will that change how it goes past the float valve?

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

My dual spin on are mounted open end on top underneath the floor on the passenger side..... combined they do provide over a quart of extra oil and serve as a good cooler...... my engine usually takes about 20 minutes of fast idle before it settel to about 160 degrees.... never get hotter.

The oil tanks on rock crawlers are piped in from the bottom with a tire pressure valve at the top end..... so they can bleed enough air to allwo the tank to fill to about 66 to 75%...close the valve and thenlet the oil pump build pressure by compressing air trapped in the top..... this is meant to protect when the vehicle is at extreme angle and the pump looses its prime or sucks air...... with there big V8 running at high rpm even a few seconds of oil starvation would have quick cumulative negative results.

Call the carb rebuilder in TO and explained my situation.... he had a very quick reaction...."of course... the Rochester carb cover is vented and gas would leak out".... told him the engine did not falter at extreme angle..... agai...."that is because we use new gaskets and the bowl cannot leak into the carb central opening... they are sealed seperate by the gasket..."

One possibility would be tosealed the existing manufacturer vent and drill and install a new vent hole with a pipe/line connected to the vent ...said pipe would have to be mounted significantly higher than the carburator.

Reminds me of the axle vent caps on mudder 4x4.... we use to remove the cap and attach a rubber hose which we ran up to the inside of the cargo box fenders for the rear and into the engine compartment for the front axle.. Not prepared to do that yet.

Carb guy is looking for a YF 879s... which was a after market carb for GM 261 and 270..... they do not make them anymore and are hard to find.... another possibility is a Zenith 28-228 but even harder to locate.

Wondering if a 251 M 37 watertight carburator wold work... I know for a fact they do not leak...even upside down..... Turns out the bolt pattern is the same.... benefit of the governor.... carbs and kits readily avaialble.... 251 vs 261 should be within same CFM range....but.... throttle location and fuel inlet is very different...... and I have a few to work with....

Makes me want to rebuild up a spare 261 I have and set up a test bed.... great Winter project....this is a short block and would need to find a good head.....

Diesel vs gas...... less volatile and diesel creeps where gas would not go.... don't think it would damage gaskets and needle rubber.....

Hope the weather is good enough to take a few wild photos this weekend.

Later sir...!

Bob

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

In any event it seems I need to find the kind of carburator that may have been installed on the GMC 270..... but.... from my 1955-59 civvy GM manuals they show and list the same Rochester B as the 261.
Bob

TM 9-801 lists the CCKW as using Zenith carbs, type 28AV11 on early vehicles an type 30 BW 11GM on late vehicles. I have not checked the various TM10s to see if any very early vehicles used something else.

The C60X used a Zenith 28AVII (according to the maintenance manual)

The C15TA used a Zenith carb for the first jobs and a Carter Dustproof carb for the after jobs according to the parts book but the maintenance manual only lists the Zenith 28AVII.

Although the American and Canadian listings describe the Zenith carb differently 28AV11 as opposed to 28AVII (eleven as opposed to eye-eye) I suspect they are the same thing.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Grant

Also referred to in old truck manual...civvy....Zenith 28 or 28-228 which is a rare bird according to the Oak boys.....

May need to check some CCKW sites for parts....

Bob

[RHClarke]

Carb testing - Hammond Style!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RanKMC18R0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz-jTOWq6RU

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Carb testing - Hammond Style!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RanKMC18R0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz-jTOWq6RU

Don't know what other people are getting as suggested other videos but when I opened Test 1 I got a bunch of BBC Top Gear video clips so you are getting some high class similar video.

As to relocating the carb vent that sounds like the best answer. If you do it please post how to photos.

Now that you have started hill climbing I'll have to go looking for some steep grades. 261 in the C60S Beauty handles 6% highway grades in third gear 30 mph half throttle. So now I've got to find a straight on grade some good steep dirt tracks around here but most of them have turns in the hills so that backing down or stalling out could get really ugly.

Love the video.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Well all the still pictures did not turnout.....may have to do it again...

Sure feels steeper when you are lying with 60 of your body weight on the back rest..... now that I see the picturtes and it is not so steep.... next time I am shooting to go over the hill.

did not realize the back end roller was scrapping the ground going up the hill..

Carb does not seem to flow out until about 3/4 of the way up ...maybe over 35 to 40 degrees....... test backing up were not good since the frame gets hung up in the wood chips.....and wheels spin.

Good news Phil..... I can hold it up the hill and the oil pressure hardly changes...... starts at 42 psi drops to about 35 psi as I near the extreme angle..... apply brakes...let engine idle...pressure goes back up to about38/39 psi .....so not too bad..... gas leaks out and we can't find from where..
the vent hole on the Rochester is not apparent....

Good news is we found some source for Zenith 28-228 carburators.... brand new from California..... intended for single, double and triple carb manifolds... price to be determined.....

...other good news..... Grant recent acquisition of a C60X still has the 270 GMC engine..... and the original Zenith 28-228 carb......

Other possibility is a Weber 2 barrel carb intended for 4x4 extreme driving...designed for preventing fuel surge..... can be jetted for Willys, chev, etc....

On the venting issue Phil..... the carb shop in TO suggested plugging the original vent hole.... which we could not see.... and drilling a new hole with an extension rubber line above the carb..... not to sure I want to do that....

Final words of wisdom from fellow Rotter.... how often will you be driving at such an extreme angle....? Well you never know..... could be doing a parade in downtown Quebec city on the very steep hills and could stall the whole parade if I am not ready for it.....!!!!

Amazed at how easy the rollign chassis goes up a hilljust using fast idle setting.... maybe 850 rpm....

On the way back home.... on pavement.... easily shifted to 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear.... low range.... a nice feeling with no doors......

Bob C.

[Ganmain Tony]

Those couple of filmings provided great entertainment.

Oh and hopefully some productive research.....

Great courage Bob!!! Geez the trucks can climb can't they??

[Bob Carriere]

Funny thing is the hill looks and feels a lot steeper from the driver's seat.

Will probably do it again for some still pictures...... that way I casn get close up or blow ups of pictures showing better where the gas is leaking form.....

Also thinking of fabricating some kind of pendalum device that will show the angle of attack and have it mounted near the carb so it will be in the picture and maybe we can capture the angle at which it starts leaking.

Major accomplishment today was moving a 20 foot sea container using the 3 point hitch on the 255 Massey.... very near it's limit for lifting...front bucket loaded with wet gravel helped balance the load. I fabricated a removable axle from 4 inch square tubing which wqe insertyed in the massive forklift pockets located at about 33 and 66 % of the container.

We lifted the sucker and positioned it on pressure treated bunks..... high enough off the ground that ramps will be needed BUT it will also allow up to open the door when we have that terrible white stuff on the ground. Thanks to Grant's help (muscle and brains) and advice on how to set it up and back up blinded by the container. Now the C15a is safely stored inside with enough space at the front that I will build some racks/shelving..... and locked with two padlocks.

Once in place the axle was removed and stored inside for whenever we get a second one.....spaced 20 feet apart with some sheet metal roofing we would gain covered parking for two more CMPs..... the removeable axle is a bit of a cobbled together piece of kit but worth it weight in gold if I was to call in a tow truck to move the container on a Sunday afternoon.

Thank God I can go to work at the office tomorrow and get some rest....and people do not understand why I am still working instead of retiring... it to rest from the darn fun weekend...

Boob

[Freewheels]

...but, retirement is also fun, 'cause everyday is Saturday...

[RHClarke]

Just finished a road trip from Thunder Bay to Ottawa - I am moving my mother (and her car) down east. Surprisingly, there were scant few sightings of mil vehicles along the way to North Bay. After North Bay, it was raining and very dark, so no surprises there.

Tomorrow I head to the Maritimes to deliver my mother and to visit two locations that have mil vehicles sitting out in the open. I hope my brother doesn't mind something green occupying his driveway (if the price is right...).

Off to Halifax tomorrow at sparrow's fart!

[RHClarke]

No luck on thos trip - I spoke with an elderly gentleman who has a 3/4 ton cargo sitting in his yard. While it had been run in the past year, time has taken it's toll on the old girl. I figured it would go for a couple of hundred, but his firm price was 2K.I smiled and indicated that he would have to wait for another buyer. He was willing to do so,therefore, if you are in Waterville NS and have a desire to spend some dough, stop in. The truck can be seen on the right side of the old no 1 hwy as you head east past the airstrip.

For you diamond T types he also has a 630 sitting there.
Will be back in Ottawa Monday afternoon - can't wait to see the mistress and the Hammond barn's latest acquisition...

[RHClarke]

We recovered the 6 pounder "tank trailer" last night. Bob, Grant and I headed for the metropolis of Monkland to pick up the tank. Our host, Peter, was a heck of a nice guy. He, like Bob, is into tractors, so they hit it off right away. We also got a few leads on some "army stuff" that is hiding in the local area. I am of the opinion that making contacts is just as important as picking up the rusty stuff...

Shot of the hub (the other tire is a forklift tire which made a good replacement for the military tire that blew out):

[RHClarke]

Snow is on the way. Some stuck around the barn until about 1000hrs this morning when the sun came out in all of its glory. Bob and I loaded two 3/4 ton trailers with firewood for eventual stacking in his garage. Following that fun we filled a few more potholes with gravel. Now Bob wants it to rain so he can see where to drop the next load of gravel...

This afternoon we sorted through a load of modular tent centers that we purchased from Greg Wright in Kars. Most of the tentage was in good nick so we folded it up and stored it in anticipation of next week when we will join the pieces together and drape them over various shelters and trucks. We also sorted through a load of coveralls that Greg generously donated to the cause.

Grant was off doing something away from the barn. Guy Vapeur showed up after lunch and filled us in on his hunting adventures. After a few stories, I headed for home for a nice sun filled trip to Ottawa. Not much to report, but I am sure that will change.

[RHClarke]

This morning I took advantage of the hot weather (17oC at 1000hrs - currently it is 20oC in Ottawa - 1530hrs) and made my way out to the barn for some pre-winter prep.

Todays task was to stitch together two center sections of modular tentage (purchased from fellow MLUer Greg Wright). These sections were then dragged over my Prototypes shelter and tied down. The roof of the shelter did not fare well this summer due to UV damage and a fair bit of chaffing wear. So, up went the mod tentage.

I could not believe how warm it was getting and thought that maybe my age was finally catching up with me. The warm front from the US that is causing so much destruction pushed its way as far north as Ottawa.

I don't think that there is a better solution for replacing worn shelter roofs than mod tent centers. Until I am back to work and earning some $$, they will have to do.

[RHClarke]

Go to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2ndAD1nBbo
to see Bob working his way thru the gears of his truck.

[RHClarke]

We are fortunate at the barn to have spare parts. Some of our spares end up in the junk heap as being beyond economical repair. Other parts get re-purposed. Take for instance a worn HUP rim. This rim was perforated by rust along the outside lip (see the 10 o'clock area) and most of the inside contact area was overly rusted. Rather than chucking it into the scrap pile, the rim is now a clock that adorns my shop wall at home.

The Dollar Store offers plastic clocks for $2.00 CAD that almost fit the opening of the rim. A little hot glue, a fresh battery, and presto: CMP kitch!

Just might get something productive done out at the barn this Sunday...time will tell.

[gjamo]

Thats nearly as good as Keefies Ford grill barby plate.
Graeme

[Bob Carriere]

While at the recent militaria show in Ottawa last weekend Rob noticed this picture that fell out of a book...... not interested in thebook but in the picture Rob purchased same and gave it to me..... it was not a nude but very nice just the same !!!

Obviously a personal picture from a small box camera....original size is about 2.5 by 3.5 inches.


I have scanned it and enlarged certain parts of it......

The first pic is the full picture..... noticed the lettering on the door....

The license palte to my failing eyes reads QUEBEC 40

...And the enlargement of the door says

R DECHAUD

70-1-703

So the riddle is......

....when did they start writing the name of the truck driver on the door.... and why...? maybe that's just for Quebec so they would not loose them..?


Rob Clarke has suggested a very plausible explanation and even a possible location....

Any takers.....?

Boob

[Jordan Baker]

Not being much of an acedemic, but a professional, none-the-less I would think it would be for the Regiment De La Chaudiers. I hope you can sleep well tonight Mr Boobee.

[Bob Carriere]

.... I must admit, at first, it did not make much sense to me....

....but then Rob pointed out the abreviation....R. DECHAUD. and according to him the hill in the background are probably early ValCartier PQ.....

Does anyone knows what color the plate/numbers would have been in 1940 for Qc.

A charming picture....early C8 with no front vent....and what I believe to be a woven steel mesh Ford grill...... shudder !!!! very common for that era..


Bob

[RHClarke]

Le Régiment de la Chaudière now hails from Beauceville, Thetford Mines, Lac Mégantic and the neighbouring areas. It was formed in 1939 as a machine gun battalion and was sent to England in 1941. Members of the regiment participated in the D-Day landings. The locals were astonished to find out that there were French speaking troops in the invasion force. They were more than a little confused by the regiment's name, as a chaudiere was a water heater...the explanation given for the regiment's name - it was named after the river in Quebec by the same name. If you get a chance to see the Chaudiere River in all of its glory, it will become apparent how it got its name - the water appears to be boiling as it rolls along certain parts of its course.

The photo may have been taken at or near the rifle ranges in Valcartier - judging by the photo of the mountain in the background. Bob, I knew that you would appreciate the photo as only a Monkey Face aficionado would...