Achilles

[Harry Moon]

A remarkable piece of work built from only the slimmest pieces of a range target. This was supposed to be the big debut, the day didn't work out that way and these video's weren't supposed to see the light of day to preserve some pride. But they have been on you tube for a year now so might as well share it with everybody here.
this is the first of several on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFQJ1u4p_Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lz93Ali4bg

Disaster!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAx28XLJYu4

You can look at the rest posted by the same guy including getting some early look at the "Highway Thru Hell" guys.
N.O.S. brake shoes disintegrated!

[Bob Carriere]

MIssed a shift or the track steering/brake system fail completely.......

Imagine the towing bill......two tow trucks.... to bad they did not film it for Highway through Hell.......

T(h)anks for posting.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

N.O.S. brake shoes disintegrated!

I think this may be your answer Bob.

Note the O in NOS means the parts are old. One must take that into account when trying to use things that have shelf life, or in some cases, where shelf life isn't normally a consideration.

[jdmcm]

Harry I do not think you are representing this replica honestly. It was not "restored" from a range target...it was a complete fabrication starting with a tub from a forestry yarder...not even a tank hull. Yes it is a incredible piece of fabrication but a restoration it is not. I have seen the articles in the local paper where the owner and chief fabricator claims the hull and turret were located in a scrap yard in Calgary...I think such outright misrepresentations shed a poor light on the entire MV community. It has always amazed me that instead of being proud of the skill required to fabricate this machine from scratch, the owner is intent on deceiving us all into thinking it is a genuine M10 much less an Achilles. Perhaps the owner would like to provide the serial # from the hull of this "range wreck"?

[David Herbert]

I agree with John but there may be more going on here than outright misreprisentation. Some years ago a friend converted an OT810 halftrack to look like a WW2 German one. He later sold it (described accurately) and a couple of years later was talking about it to the new owner who was now adamant that it was real. He had evidently convinced himself that the illusion had turned to fact. My friend decided that it was better to walk away.

Has the "Achillies" got the proper 5 speed gearbox and if so why does he only use 1st gear? The classic reasion for having no brakes in a Sherman is that someone puts EP90 into the transmission which very effectively stops the brake bands gripping ! This one did seem to steer ok though in the earlier videos so probably not that cause. I think it was probably just driver error developing into panic. Luckily the guy riding on the rear decks (a very bad idea as demonstrated here) had the sense to not try to jump and laid down behind the turret till they stopped. Had he jumped he could easily have fallen back against the moving tank as happened to someone I know with life changing results.

David

[Ed Storey]

Canadian Military museums are full of vehicles on display that have been painted or altered to be something that they are not. So, in order to 'stir-the-pot', what is wrong with this fellow's restoration? Just asking.

I agree, the fakes and reproductions need to be recorded as such, and that fabricating these examples only muddies the waters for those who actually care about and study these machines.

[David Herbert]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

So, in order to 'stir-the-pot', what is wrong with this fellow's restoration? Just asking.

I think that the issue is that it's not a restoration or even a replica ! It is home made with genuine running gear. It has no meaningfull history. As John said it is a great achievement to build something on this scale but it is not an accurate reproduction and from the video evidence does not work very well - though that could be more the driver. I can certainly see the point of building replicas of interesting vehicles but unless they are identical to the original they are just look-alikes and of no historic value. Other views are available !

David

[Harry Moon]

Well this is a dark side of our community! You can "restore" an airplane from the serial number out but pull pieces off of a range and only use what was salvageable, very little in this case and you got shot down. People don't come here for that crap, we have a pretty good crowd, obviously there are exceptions.

[David Herbert]

I am sorry Harry if I have offended you. Are you disagreeing with my reason for criticising this guy claiming it to be a restoration or are you objecting to any criticism of anyone for anything? I will leave the last word to you as I don't intend to get into a public argument here and as I said my previous comments were just my opinion. I might add that I have spent many hours removing stuff from ranges (with correct permissions) and know very well what hard work it is and how much effort goes into arranging each trip. I also have great respect for the expense and hard work that went into creating this vehicle but I stand by my comments above.

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Well, changing the subject completely...at noon tomorrow a float is coming to move my Fox and UC to a show. After watching these videos on U-Tube and the 'tank fail' ones (of tanks falling off floats or crashing into things) that followed I'm getting a queasy feeling.

Thanks guys.

[Russ Gregg]

Personally I feel that if it is documented as a replica and not misrepresented to be something it is not then it serves a purpose. If the owner/builder is happy with his work and displays it as an honest reproduction he is at least opening peoples eyes to history to which they might have previously been unaware. Lets face it, I'm into my second half century and I'm probably pulling the average age on this forum down. If a guy builds a decent representation of a tank that brings younger blood into the hobby or even just raises public awareness to military history beyond the pathetic level it is at he has achieved something. As long as he isn't trying to sell it as the real thing or doing crazy stuff to cast dark shadows on history or legitimate hobbyists I don't see a problem.

[Harry Moon]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

Harry I do not think you are representing this replica honestly. It was not "restored" from a range target...it was a complete fabrication starting with a tub from a forestry yarder...not even a tank hull. Yes it is a incredible piece of fabrication but a restoration it is not. I have seen the articles in the local paper where the owner and chief fabricator claims the hull and turret were located in a scrap yard in Calgary...I think such outright misrepresentations shed a poor light on the entire MV community. It has always amazed me that instead of being proud of the skill required to fabricate this machine from scratch, the owner is intent on deceiving us all into thinking it is a genuine M10 much less an Achilles. Perhaps the owner would like to provide the serial # from the hull of this "range wreck"?

I never said restored but if that's your thing maybe we can debate that someday.

[Frank v R]

Bruce, don't break an antenna, go wave the flag

[jdmcm]

No Harry the dark side of this hobby is having the military police "invite" you to an interview at 39Brigade ASU to see if you have any knowledge about parts stolen from a DND monument Sherman tank entrusted to the same people who can't seem to tell the difference between a replica and a real M10. How did the Investigating officer phrase it...oh yeah...THEFT OF A WEAPONS SYSTEM...that's what they call it evidently when you steal the cannon from a tank. You want to talk dark side? These guys keep up their crap and we will all get legislated right out of this hobby....replicas will be all we will have left.

I am not opposed to replicas in any way shape or form...they are great and do give people a great way into what has become an increasingly expensive hobby...I fabricate stuff for my vehicles all the time...be proud of what you can do...what I am opposed to is intentional deception...and thieves...

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Well, changing the subject completely...at noon tomorrow a float is coming to move my Fox and UC to a show. After watching these videos on U-Tube and the 'tank fail' ones (of tanks falling off floats or crashing into things) that followed I'm getting a queasy feeling.

Thanks guys.

From personal experience, the split second that things go wrong is when you are going up or down the ramps of the flatbed, and are right at the point of balance. With only inches of track on the deck rather than 10 feet or more, the vehicle gets extremely sensitive to an imbalance of power, be it braking or acceleration. Any attempts at correction just make it worse.....at some point you brace yourself for the ride down and hope it doesn't hurt.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

No Harry the dark side of this hobby is having the military police "invite" you to an interview at 39Brigade ASU to see if you have any knowledge about parts stolen from a DND monument Sherman tank entrusted to the same people who can't seem to tell the difference between a replica and a real M10. How did the Investigating officer phrase it...oh yeah...THEFT OF A WEAPONS SYSTEM...that's what they call it evidently when you steal the cannon from a tank. You want to talk dark side? These guys keep up their crap and we will all get legislated right out of this hobby....replicas will be all we will have left.

I am not opposed to replicas in any way shape or form...they are great and do give people a great way into what has become an increasingly expensive hobby...I fabricate stuff for my vehicles all the time...be proud of what you can do...what I am opposed to is intentional deception...and thieves...

I'll assume this is related to the incredible shrinking tank thread that used to be on the G503 forum. I always wondered what the conclusion to that was.

[jdmcm]

Rob there was a real investigation, being an armor owner I was politely asked to come for a taped "interview" and to explain what I knew of what had happened...and if any of the missing parts had found the way to me...I know great attempts were made by all involved to sweep the whole thing under the rug...strangely the "Achilles" was accidentally "restored" with the missing engine decks and armored doors and exhaust/muffler set up missing from the monument tank...once the G503 thread ramped up the heat...those parts were stacked up behind the CMEC museum...but as far as I know, never returned. The complete gun was replaced with a "replica" and the actual gun and mantlet found their way to the home of the "Achilles Restorer" himself. What the outcome ever was I don't know...as you can see fudging the origin of the M10 is just the tip of what Harry aptly called the "dark side" of the MV hobby....me I have few other choice words to describe this bunch...

[ajmac]

One does have to be careful of replicas (or more correctly a pastiche), I've stood on the line at Beltring and the W&PR shows and heard Joe public telling there kids, "yea, that's a WW2 German Panzer and that's a 251 halftrack", when in actual fact all the German vehicles are scratch built pastiches using 1960s FV423 running gear or OT810s. They are great pieces of workmanship, but they DO NOT accurately represent wartime German Armour! Its so commonplace now that I think its confusing the general public.

Taking an original machine, producing engineering drawings and manufacturing new parts that could be interchanged with original is a replica. Building something that looks sort of like the original from 25 meters away is a pastiche!

[Harry Moon]

There was no theft, that was the conclusion of the trumped up investigation initiated by big ego's. Old news but some people are a blight on the hobby, look in the mirror.

[Lynn Eades]

John and Harry, you guys have lots of constructive stuff to contribute.
I ask you (very nicely!) to take your conflict away from this forum. It is not what MLU is about. Thank you.

[Harry Moon]

I didn't ask for those scuroulous accusations to be made and I will defend my friends from such as required.

[jdmcm]

You know that was not the actual outcome of the investigation Harry...and so does everyone else. But since Lynn asked I have no problem leaving this discussion right here.