Re-enactors at MV events

[Mike Kelly]

Well here goes ,

What do the forum readers think of the re-enactor thing at MV events ? It seems to me , it started off as a innocent add on to the military theme of our restored vehicles . But , it has unfortunately grown to a point where it has its own following , separate to the MV restorer clan .

Here in OZ , it hasn't really taken off until recently . But I have noticed the re-enactors are present at more and more MV events

We had a group of German SS re-enactors at one well attended national MV rally here a few years ago , they did raise a few eyebrows and they have not returned to this annual event as far as I know . The re-enactor fraternity claim they are portraying history and this is fine and dandy , but why oh why do the German re - enactors always gravitate towards depicting the SS , they invariably claim that 99% of the veterans love us and we get awards for our displays etc. This is just total B******T . The real reason is , they get a warped kick out of running around portraying a group of evil thugs .

In the current world climate, running around dressed up in a SS uniform is a rather dumb thing to do I think . The Essex MVT has just had its annual Tilbury show site pulled out from under its feet . Yes , the public do watch us MV enthusiasts closely and I wonder if the re-enactor thing has gone too far and had the PC police pulling strings against us . Who knows , just some thoughts . Remember , there is a fine line between being a adult and a child , maybe sometimes the child in us wins .



Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
What do the forum readers think of the re-enactor thing at MV events ? It seems to me , it started off as a innocent add on to the military theme of our restored vehicles . But , it has unfortunately grown to a point where it has its own following , separate to the MV restorer clan .

Here in OZ , it hasn't really taken off until recently . But I have noticed the re-enactors are present at more and more MV events

We had a group of German SS re-enactors at one well attended national MV rally here a few years ago , they did raise a few eyebrows and they have not returned to this annual event as far as I know .

Mike,
I know you are talking about Corowa here, as I witnessed it. How would it have gone down with the public if the re-enactors had been portraying Japs? As it was the local paper featured them and not what the annual gathering was really about, ie. vehicle collectors. When it started off with vehicle owners dressing in appropriate uniform and displaying kit around their pride and joy, it was alright. I am not really happy about how it currently is over here, we vehicle owners are apt to be guilty of association, by that I mean that Joe Public thinks we all play soldiers because we drive old military vehicles.

Richard

[Wayne Henderson]

We have had this "discussion" before and it quickly turned personal and nasty. There are many re enactor types on this forum who believe they are genuine in what they do and have an interest in MV's as well. I believe the problems start when things get a bit too serious.

Every MV enthusiast who knows his stuff knows of at least one MV collector who takes things a bit too far, is a shark, a show pony or just has to have something no one else has. Tank envy? I am sure the same goes for re enactors as most of them are human too.

As Mike says the re enactor thing hasn't taken off here in Australia yet, or maybe just starting, and in the West we have just 4 Afrika Korps re enactors. All of these are imports from Pomme Land which seems to be more tollerant towards this sort of thing.

My belief is that most re enactors start as war/history buffs then move into the collecting of books and items then into uniforms and the wearing of. Then they form groups and require vehicles to go on show. The uniform and kit comes first the vehicle second.

With most MV owners the vehicle comes first and everything else a pale second, (wife and kids not included). It does peeve me though to see a great looking MV driven by a bloke in an Hawiian shirt, a green T shirt or an army style jacket would do but then it's your vehicle so you can do what you want.
I think the re enactors would then discribe the driver to be a Farb?

Personally I don't wish to be associated in public with re enactors at MV events and our club has a Code of Conduct to deal with the wearing of uniforms, displaying of Axis symbols and the wearing of medals that are not your own.

[chris vickery]

Several years ago I was involved with a group of American Civil War re-enactors.
I found for the most part that the general public appreciated the events we went to although the group that we depicted was of the confederate south or the "bad guys"
Common sense must prevail in any event such as this, afterall many a veteran was affected by the enemy in one way or the other, having seen many a friend get blown to bits, mistreated etc etc.
I have always had a love of historical things.
Not every person in the general public share the same view.
Nazis are bad, so are commies, marxists, dictators, Japs etc.
This is a general perception by the uneducated public.
Remember guns are bad too! Doesn't matter which side uses them.
The most disturbing thing I found in the re-enactment hobby was that some of the members went too far, to the point that one would wonder if they had some sort of mental disorder. This is the last thing our hobby needs.
Years ago I was also invilved with a local gun club, many members having military firearms.
There were those level headed individuals who used common sense and those who didn't.
Guess what? The others in the club thought all of us a bunch of para-military whack jobs!
Wear a German uniform, you're bound to get some negative feedback. A time and a place for everything.
Do it where other like minded individuals can appreciate it for what it is. If you "live it" obviously you have an issue or two, seek help soon.
A bunch of local collectors have a nice meet at my friends John's every year, we're good people. Like minded, sincere and genuine collectors who appreciate history. To the general public I'm sure we'd be a bunch of weirdos. At the same time though, we're not running around the streets "playing army"
Guys, do all of use in the hobby a favour and use your comon sense.

[cmp truck]

Mike,
I must agree with your statement.
My father fought the Japanese for three years in Burma. He did not have anything polite to say about what he went through.
Here in Canada, one must remember that Canadian troops were exectued by the SS in the battles after D Day.
On Remembrance Day, our school invites an army vet, a navy vet and an air force vet to school to talk to the kids.
The air force fellow was shoot down and ended up in Auschwitz. But he won't tell the kids about that point of his life.
The army vet will talk about anything but combat.
Yet reenactors say veterans have tears in theirs eyes when the veterans see them all dressed up.
Maybe they do, but I doubt it is for combat reasons. More likely a memory of what they, the veterans looked like when they were 18-19 years old.
On another website, I once replied to a post like this post by saying "Who would like to be the Canadian in Hong Kong 1941? Who would like to be the Jap?"
To me the proper weapons, gear and uniforms that would be found on any particular mv are legitimate. This includes any vehicle from any army.
But fighting in a mock battle for eight hours, then going out for a beer and "reminiscing" about the "fight" hardly seems like remembering what veterans really went through.
We have ex-army guys in our mv club.
Their take is simple: if you want to find out what it is like in combat, sign up an serve your country.

[Mike Kelly]

I know that the re-enactors take things seriously , but is this going too far ?

Mike

[dougiebarder]

Judging by the look on his face, not only has he starched his-he's ironed razor creases in as well.

[Pete Ashby]

Mike

Difficult question you pose here.

In the UK the interest for re-enacting from many periods of my countries long history has been gaining pace and respectability for a number of years now. Be you a Celtic warrior, Roman Legionary, Viking pirate, Dark Age Warrior, Saxon mercenary, Mounted Norman knight, War of the Roses foot soldier, English Civil war pike man, Napolionic rifleman, WW1 trench soldier or WW11combatant you will have a number of clubs to cater for your interest.
The general public appear react to all this on the whole with benign interest and the feeling is if that's what they want to do then at least their not rioting and costing the tax payer money in policing fees as do most of our so called sports.

What's this got to do with your original question ? ……I have observed the following reaction from the public…. If the historical event is outside of living memory then the whole thing takes on something of a pageant, it lights the imagination and lets the spectator view with emotional detachment two men trying to chop bits of each other. The rationalisation here is that we all know one is a Bank Manager from Slough and the other is a teacher from Leeds so if it starts to get a bit scary all the observer has to do is remember that they are just putting on a show. This view will undoubtly upset the re-enactors who put vast amounts of time and money into getting things right.
If we now move to WW11 which is the period that has prompted your question then things get a bit more confused for us here in the UK and in Europe. Three factors may be at work here,

1 this is within immediate or first generation memory for large numbers of people
2 I think there is a compelling fascination for some that Hitler and the German armed forces came so close yet ultimately failed
3 The USA had nearly three million men in the UK just before D-Day and a presence from 1942 to the current day. This has had a huge cultural effect on Britain the echoes of which can still be felt today.

What does this mean for WW11 re-enactment at MV events? US and British (I'm including all Common Wealth and Dominion Forces in here) usually get a good reception and the standards of dress and behaviour do credit to the various organisations involved. German units are viewed with a range of emotions ranging from historical interest, suspect political motives through to hostility.
I have to say the German re-enactors I have seen put on a very professional demonstration of kit and uniforms.
But it leaves me feeling uneasy even though I find the historical aspect interesting.
Why do these Englishmen want to represent a force that so nearly crushed the free world?.
Why do they want to represent a force that perpetrated such crimes against humanity?.
I have asked a number of them over the years, the more articulate will say that they represent the balance and this may be true, my Father fought for six years for his country and was always the first to remind me that we won so we got to write the history.

Do I think WW11 battle re-enactment is acceptable?….. No…that’s playing soldiers…. The real experience would be to use live rounds. Having said that why is it OK to watch a thousand English Civil War re-enactors knocking seven bells out of each other on a sunny Sunday in June ? historical distance? my point above .
I restore my trucks and regard them as time capsules that represent a period of high endeavour and focused effort when there were clear goals and the shades of grey were not so varied as now in our grey grey world of political correctness.
Perhaps the re-enactor is a living example of this clearer world, done well and with personal pride and discipline I think it has it's place... but not for me.
Running round firing blanks and then going home to tea I think is too soon after the event to my mind and has no place at MV shows, but of course it brings in the crowds!!.

Pete

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Mike

Difficult question you pose here.

Yes it is.

Pete and the others make some very considered and valid points.

Lets take the picture Mike posted which came from me some time ago, there is a story attached. The German officer here, pictured at Beltring, is the only one actually entitled to wear the uniform and did serve in the SS for the last two weeks of WWII as a teenager I understand. When I have seen him in the arena he does take it almost too far and will overtly turn away from, and shun any allied person or vehicle as if they are non-existent.

He also nailed the coffin on us ever using Southsea Common again being unwittingly cajoled by the press to make a stiff-arm salute for the camera man who had cunningly lined-up the shot from a crouch with the huge war memorial there, being about half the height of Nelson's Column, as a backdrop; took the whole front page the next day.

What with this and tank track marks on the green sward of the common which the long-standing lady councillors want to look over 365 days a year in pristine condition from their sea-front properties, it was a bit of a foregone conclusion. Plus, a girly reporter who found a genuine Min of Inf. publication on a stall which loosely detailed home made weapons and booby traps from domestic items and published in the days of a real invasion threat. The next day the headline read:
"DEATH BOOK ON SALE AT MILITARY RALLY."

So, I have some observations, I don't know the answers and I'm not into re-enactment at all, DPM jacket and jeans me, cheap and convenient and I'm a scruffy git anyway, but it seems fair that if you can wear allied, Russsian, Japanese or whatever then German should be allowed too.

But.

I am aware that in continental Europe a Wehrmacht or any WWII German uniform is the fastest way to prison going, and I am still embarrassed and ashamed at the offence probably taken by continental visitors to be met at Beltring and marshalled in by accurately dressed and well armed SS troops, I am sure it upset my Dutch friend wether he admits it or not.

Should we skew history and ban German uniforms ? I don't know.

Taking the point about Hawaiian shirt dressing, the really serious Wehrmacht vehicle restorers and owners do that here intentionally to make an obvious detachment as far as possible away from any form of uniform-wearing re-enactment. For several years these people who have spent, in some cases actually millions, on restoring Wehrmacht vehicles were stopped at the Beltring arena entrance and asked to vacate their vehicles so the re-enactment groups could drive them around for a better spectacle. This was done in all seriousness and the arena staff were most taken aback at the violent response from the owners as they really couldn't see a problem with it.

Now do you ban uniforms for what they stand for, which might be unsafe or because of the attraction of the lunatic fringe who now have an acceptable front to satisfy some darker desires?

The MVT ban SS uniforms/insignia because of a previous problem with some vets, however we have to recognise that generally the SS were highly disciplined, well-trained and excellently commanded fighting units that were no easy push-over, in fact the SS title was dropped onto a lot of ordinary Wehrmacht as the war progressed as a spur to greater efforts it seems.

Of course we'd all cite the brutality of the SS in the Russian campaign, however, its worth taking a moment to look at our allies on the other side there as well, and maybe their conduct thereafter perhaps. Leading historians will put old Uncle Joe Stalin well above Mr.Schickelgruber in the evil stakes.

And what of the western allies, are we all shining white too or is it easy for the victors perhaps to expose all the misdemeanours of the vanquished but hide their own problems. We didn't have even one psycopath in all the armies ? Not one really brutal NCO didn't get a "inadvertent" 7.6962mm hole entering from behind in the Normandy meleé instead of a "correct" 7.92mm one in the front? No skeletons lurking in the dusty basement of Whitehall under a 100yr rule that will certainly be lost/damaged by fire/water or inadvertently destroyed when say 2044 comes around?

Look, I'm not condoning or supporting any of it, just perhaps an exercise in food for thought, there are two sides to most everything.

The real concern with re-enactment and uniforms does seem to gravitate to German, and SS especially, there are virtually no non SS groups here and I don't know why, but here's the problem for the vehicle people. Get a small bunch of really lunatic, living it for real people, and we know they do exist, that manage to infiltrate a group and perpetrate some really henious act. The official axe will fall, the vehicles and shows will be off, bit like a Dunblane saga; it only takes one.

We will never again get to own and drive _traceable_, and/or road licensed military vehicles but the living it for real lunatic fringe will just go off into the woods and dress up again.

Now I blame Mike Kelly entirely for kicking another soap-box under my feet and I'll speak to you later, you Morris-Commercial addict you.

But, we really need to be pedantic about vehicle road-worthyness, especially as in England a lot of trucks fall between the stools and are exempt from the annual and rigid MoT test; I have seen some horrors turn up at shows on original tyres showing the cords through the cracks, perished flexible brake lines with bigger bumps than the Michelin man and dribbling brake fluid like a broken radiator re-enactment, to name but a few. When the woopsie happens and a bystander is hurt or killed, trying to justify to officialdom why we NEED an old army truck becomes very difficult. It sometimes keeps me awake at night.

Remember the French have just banned all private armour from their citizens, no carriers, Ferrets, Dingos, Lynx, Otters, it goes on doesn't it. Why ? I have no idea, not one has never been involved in any criminal activity or accident. Its depressing, they're a vocal member of the EU too and just across the water; think I'll keep my head down and not rock the boat.

Probably time someone young and energetic like Mr McSpool stood as a MEP, then we'd have an internal voice, think of the pay, expenses and free E Class Merc you'd get on the Euro gravy-train beano McSpool. Beats working for a living.

R.

[dougiebarder]

I don't know about anybody else, but I would prefer to see the reenactors uniforms on dummies( I'll try and resist humour) in a marquee. That way we could see the differing uniforms and equipment (differing nation's, arms of service,theatre etc) side by side in a good setting. Rather than a green or grey blob half way across a field.
There was a chap at Beltring in 2002 with a trailer for displaying his collection of weapons and equipment-(very well done as well). far more informative than the realistic clutter in a living history camp.

[Pete Ashby]

I've been thinking some more on this subject so those of you who can be bothered to read this thread please indulge me a little longer:

MV restoring/collecting is just one small branch of an apparent human desire to collect/restore articles of historical interest and intrinsic value. So lets see if there are any parallel out there in similar interests to our own, take a moment to consider the following.

Do collectors of classic/vintage/veteran cars indulge in debate with regard to the wearing of period costume that compliment the given period of their cars?. This is becoming more prevalent on the show circuit here in the UK, …..Anything from Teddy Boys and their Dolls in drain pipes and tight sweaters to Edwardian Ladies and Gentlemen in dresses with bustles and loud stripped blazers all complete with all the wicker picnic hamper, canteen of cutlery, champers and smoked Salmon for lunch.

Do collectors of classic/vintage/veteran commercial vehicles get themselves in a lather over wearing a pair of riggers boots and a checked shirt or a black waist coat with watch chain, flat cap and brightly coloured neck scarf.

Do steam men agonise over whether it is politically correct to be seen in overalls or jeans and tee shirt while driving their beloved charges?. Go to the Great Dorset steam Fair and you will see a forest of greasy bowler hats, agricultural smocks, and floppy straw hats in the beer tents.

So why do we have this thread running here today?. And before on the previous forum, when as I recall it got a bit out of hand and some people started to feel threatened and started finger pointing.
Why does this subject cause such a response?.

I will freely admit to having worn uniform on occasion for large displays to complement whatever truck I owned at the time. It was always clean, accurate and did not have rank badges or awards on it, I have never carried firearms or bayonets nor worn it down the shops or out to the pub at night.

I chose to ware it to compliment my truck and present a completed picture when on display in the arena. While in uniform I always tried to behave responsibly and to present myself in a disciplined manner.
I do not regard myself as a re-enactor any more than I am sure the collectors/restorers in my examples above do.

Here's a real life story by way of example; At this years Beltring we were out at a local pub one night for dinner, we took a couple of the trucks as they are our only means of transport while at the show.
Sitting outside were a couple of blokes with their wives also having a drink.
As we passed them to go into the bar they complimented us on the trucks and I got talking to them.
It transpired that they were part of a very good German Living history display at the show.
They were very interested to know why CMP look the way they do and how long it took to restore them.

Pleasant intelligent blokes having a good chat over a beer on a warm summers night.

It struck me afterwards that had they been sitting there in German uniform I would have felt uneasy being seen talking to them and we probably would not have stopped at the pub in the first place.

The question gentlemen is this;........... is that my problem or theirs ?????????????.

Pete

[Mike Kelly]

hi Pete ,

Yes, the old time theme thing is also prevalent here . There are a couple of large theme parks based on various periods in Australia's history . The most popular one at Ballarat depicts life on the 1860's goldfields . They have set up a street with many period stores and shops that sell wares to tourists . They have a British army re-enactment troop also dressed up in their redcoats .

Although it seems harmless , I have always thought that these modern day versions of history are too clean and tidied up . For example , the theme parks never show people dying from Tuberculosis , lying in the gutter . This was a common sight in the 1800's .

Yes, as you say many old veteran and classic vehicle events do have people dressed up in period costumes , adding to the atmosphere . But , I have never known or heard of any steam engine drivers or Edwardian ladies that run around murdering innocent people . I judge people by their actions , not by what they verbalise in words or write down as text .

There is a book around titled " The SS a warning from History " written by Guido Knopp . He has also done a few excellent TV docos on Germany during WW2 .

History is easily distorted , look at any of Hollywoods fantasy land movies that brainwash many people .

Mike

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I haven't been as much on track with all of this stuff as I should be, at least in recent weeks. You all make good, thoughtful comments here, and I shall add my own in due course. I think this is an important subject, with a close relationship to our vehicles and what may be regarded as the 'living history' aspect of them, and I think we cannot afford to neglect this element, on both sides of the discussion. This is an element of history which did not exist 15 years ago, and as such, is still finding its own place. The real question is, how much is TOO much?

More to follow. I'd like to pursue this thread, but keeping it "friendly".

Cheers, all.

GWB

[Matt]

Ok guys here's my two pence worth...
I'm interested in all military history be it the Vikings and later the Romans but my main interest is the US military.three of my four trucks are WW2 US (the forth being the Canadian built Dodge) and I also collect US militaria.I have about sixty US uniforms,most of which have a known history.that said I would NEVER even consider wearing a uniform. why? because I am not entiteled to. if I had served in the military that would,in my view,be fine.but I didn't.

However that is not to say that I totally disagree with re-enactment.when it is done "right" it can be a very good tool for educating the public about what our troops(and 'theirs') went through.BUT when it is done wrong it can do nothing but harm.for instance I have seen a at a number of shows and collectors fairs one or two people who will wander around dressed in military style gear carring a de-act weapon plus a fighting knife etc.these people are not trying to represent anything as their kit is a mish mash of countrys and eras.in my mind (looking at it as a bystander) these people are "wannabes" rather than serious re-enactors and there is a difference.asa with anything there will always be the weirdos ready to jump on the wagon and use it for their own gratifcation.

The only other point wich as a collector makes me un-easy about re-enactors is somtimes they will use or wera kit that really should be preserved for what it is rather than used.
This is MY view.
Matt.

[Matt]

Please excuse the spelling in my last post.guess I had a bit too much Christmas cheer last night!