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Tommy gun in the ETO
Helo friends: i´m an argentine collector of ww2 canadian equipment, I alrady have a bren, sten, lee enfiend nº4mk1*, now i´m finding a thompson. I wanted a M1A1, but i can´t find one of this. Can somebody let my know if the canadians soldiers used the 1928m1 after the normandy landing?
Thankyou very much. best regards My best wishes to the geof friend´s and family in this difficult time |
#2
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Thompsons
No, for the Canadian Army, Thompsons in Italy, Stens in NW Europe.
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Take Ed's word as the truth. He is a recognized expert in Canadian militaria, and published author on 1937 Pattern Webbing. He's also ruggedly handsome and once upon a time he was my boss. (Oh wait. Forget what I said about his good looks. He's not my boss anymore.)
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Terry Warner - 74-????? M151A2 - 70-08876 M38A1 - 53-71233 M100CDN trailer Beware! The Green Disease walks among us! |
#4
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I'd be carefull..
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Mwhahahahaha!! I think we have a guest coming up from the south in January ,and look forward to catching up on all your Christmas presents at Gracies..Some time in January as far as I know.. Alex
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk: |
#5
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Tommy Guns
Not to be a doubting thomas here but if you read "Tip of the Spear" by Lieutenant-Colonel Bernd Horn and Michel Wyczynski you will see on page 110 the First Canadian Parachute Battalion Training with a Thompson, then on page 176 a picture of glider pilots being evacuated by 1 can Para in and the man on the left is holding a Thompson. As a side note you will find some Universal Carriers on page 192 and 210.
Gary
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C-15A C-60S Universal Carrier MK II x4 M152 CDN VW Iltis and M101 Trailer |
#6
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Gary, it has to be said that in the same book, on page 144, there is a list of weapons used by the 'paras' and while including the different marks of Sten, it does not mention Thompsons.
I would suggest that hard and fast rules regarding Thompsons in Italy and Stens in NW Europe should be treated with caution as firstly, the Commandos usually used Thompsons rather than Stens and secondly there are references (eg. "One Night in June" by Kevin Shannon & Stephen Wright - page 35) that point to the Glider Pilot Regiment being given a very wide choice of what weapon they would prefer to use - in fact the pilot in question chose a Bren as his personal weapon!!! Hope this helps Gerry
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Gerry |
#7
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Here is a photo of troops from the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945. The lead soldier is carring a Thompson MG.
http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_a...-v6&back_url=() |
#8
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John, Great picture which really proves a point.
Very interestingly, the fourth figure in the column looks to be carrying a Mark II Sten! If this is the case, it is a great example of why we should be open-minded in this topic. Regards Gerry
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Gerry |
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Exactly
My thoughts as well, I was trying to show that there was evidence that tommy's were used.
Gary
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C-15A C-60S Universal Carrier MK II x4 M152 CDN VW Iltis and M101 Trailer |
#10
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I remember talking with a few RHLI vets about the use of Thompson SMG's. Early on in the war I was told that they were lucky if the Platoon Sgt/Mjr had one and that was it.
The other vet said he had one with him in NWE, interestingly he stated he got rid of the butt stock to save space. Sadly he couldn't provide much more detail. Im not sure if he was a driver as to me that would make most sense. So far I haven't really found any other evidence the RHLI had them but then I really haven't been looking for anything other then what pops up while searching for something else.
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Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer |
#11
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Preaching Here
Guys, no wonder the average collector and restorer is so confused, you all keep focusing on the half-percent anomalies! The fact is and remains that the Sten was used by the Canadian Army in North-west Europe and the Thompson was used in Italy. Sure there is a picture of a patrol in the winter and the lead person has a Thompson and okay some old Canadian Vet said he had one, that is well and good but the answer is that the Sten was the Machine Carbine used by the Army in NW Europe. Stop muddying the waters by dredging up exceptions.
There is also the infamous photograph of a member of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion carrying a M1 Garand. Interesting photograph, again an anomaly but it was fuel for the fire for every 1 Can Para Re-enactor in the US to use it as an excuse to arm himself with an M1 instead of a No. 4. Nice photograph, but wrong conclusion. Once again I hearken to tables of organization and equipment in which the Sten is THE machine Carbine for the Army in NW Europe and this has to do with supply which simply means, ammunition and parts. A member of Canadian in the Army in NW Europe in WWII would not be entitled to nor issued with a Thompson. If one were procured, then ammunition would be a problem as .45 cal ACP ammunition would not be forthcoming up through the Canadian supply chain. If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer. So ends the lesson! |
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Really
So Ends the Lesson??? HHMMMMM
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C-15A C-60S Universal Carrier MK II x4 M152 CDN VW Iltis and M101 Trailer |
#13
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I wish I had seen this yesterday as I would have said everything Ed said - but not as subtlely.
Canadian policy was Thompson in the AAI and the Sten in NWE. I feel for the idiot who carries a weapon that is not supported as the provision of parts would be impossible and ammo next to non-existent. I also think that carrying the extra pounds for the sake of a contemporary 'look cool factor' wouldn't be wotrth it after a few kilometres. That a soldier in the Airborne carries a Thompson is moot. All Canadian Airborne troops came under the 6th (British) AB Division and the British may have had a separate policy. Clive
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Those who live by the sword will be shot by those of us who have progressed. - M38A1, 67-07800, ex LETE |
#14
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"If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer."
I am thinking of making a small diorama of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945 one carrying a Thompson and the fourth in line carrying a Sten - do you think that this is realistic? Regards Gerry
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Gerry |
#15
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Standard issue
I'll start this with "I know nothing about the history of what actually happened",Apart from respecting Ed for his expertise in this area, It just make sense, what he says. Basically the military stands and falls on disapline. I Imagine that "Standing orders" precluded a soldier from carrying anything but his issued kit. If Thompsons were not issued, then were did they come from? about the only way to have one is to take it from the enemy, after he had taken it from his enemy.
I find it annoying when guys want to hang every kind of 50 cal browning all over every carrier. Yes, I'm sure these things happened occasionally, but in the overall scheme of things, as Ed says, these events are anomalies. I see it in the best of museums,(I havent been to many, but one doesn't have to visit many) where things are displayed, perported to be the truth, but in reality they are not. On the other side of this Gerry, our fathers and grandfathers fought, so that you could freely exercise your artistic license. Do that which the man in the mirror is comfortable with.
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions.... |
#16
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Hi Lynn
I was just having a laugh - of course I respect Ed’s expertise. I am just fascinated by the anomalous use of weapons in WWII - British paras and SAS using M1 carbines, SAS use of Italian Beretta SMGs etc. and I love to see references such as we have been discussing. By the way if anyone has stories of refs. Of this kind, please contact me (online or off) so that I can add them to my file. Best regards Gerry
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Gerry |
#17
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yes Stens for NWE were the rule. I didn't put that in my posting as I thought it would be rather a given from the first couple of postings. I only wanted to pass on some more info and that was that. You only have to look at my carrier resto to see that I do it buy the book.
On a related note. I was under the assumption that American made armoured vehicles came with all or most of the equipment as issued in the US. IE, the US tanker helmets, .50 and .30cal mgs and Thompson SMG's and that this was how a lot of this stuff made it into the system. (pls read all this with a lighthearded frame of mind, not trying to start anything or add fuel to a fire)
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Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer |
#18
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When 1st. Cdn. Div. moved from Italy to NWE were their Thompsons taken away and were they re-issued with Stens? I remember my Dad saying he had a Thompson from 1943 through the end of the war, which means he would have taken it with him to NWE.
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#19
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My cousin, Fred Abbott, had a Thompson with the "mafia clip" that he picked up in Sicily. He used it in Italy but when he ran over a land mine just after Cassino, the gun and drum mag disappeared. When he got out of the hospital he was sent to Holland and was issued a Sten. He had nothing good to say about the Sten when comparing it to the Thompson. I can see what he meant after I fired both types. You can hold the Tommy Gun on target but the Sten will climb to the right. As far as ammo goes, with the Sten you could easily grab a few 9mm rounds off a dead German but not so with the 45 ACP.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 Last edited by cletrac (RIP); 31-01-11 at 03:50. |
#20
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Go for it!
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Derek.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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You Have to be Kidding!
You are kidding, right? Stop shaving a week before an event! Have a quick look at the images held within the Faces of War site that is hosted by the Library and Archives Canada. You will not find many Canadian soldiers who are not clean shaven, shaving was and still is SOP.
Instead of trying to portray what you think is 'cool', why not do a bit a of research and present to the public what was accurate and correct. |
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Please don't misquote me.
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Derek.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
#23
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My Grandfather had a Thompson while driving ambulances for 1MAC in Sicily/Italy, and after the creation of the RCEME where he spent his days with 1div, 3bde infantry workshop. He was able to keep it until he got the word that he was going to France.
If I recall correctly, he was issued the Thompson in England shortly before leaving for Sicily. He said you had to be very protective over the Thompson...if you put it down and turned your back for a second, it would be gone.
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ARTE et MARTE by skill and by fighting Royal Canadian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers |
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Re: Sgt Cooper
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The photo you refer to is attached (Source: LAC) Cheers
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Mark |
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No Pioneer
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No, it never occurred to me because if he was a Pioneer he wouldn't have caught heck, as it was reported, from his superiors for having the beard. Derek.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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No Misquote - So I Will Spell it Out
I did not misquote you at all, I was politely stating that your misguided and wrong interpretation of what you think a Canadian soldier looked like during the Second World War is based what you think is cool to impress your re-enactor friends and not what was the norm during that period.
Did it not even dawn on you that you are basing your impression on a very small percentage of images of bearded Canadian soldiers held in vast archival collection of material? That alone should have been enough, but from what I see from your previous post, I suspect that you are on some 'bearded crusade'. Perhaps you can do us all a favour and actually find for us and post some of the other images of bearded Canadians during the Second World War that you apparently may have researched, because right now I have my doubts you can, but you may surprise me. Did none of the members of your 're-enactment unit' question your bizzare no shaving request, or are they as blatantly mis-informed about the people and the period as you are? |
#27
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Thank you for the spelling lesson
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Yes it did dawn on me that I'm basing my impression on a very small percentage of images of Canadian soldiers. On that point we completely agree. To my mind there are two impressions that we can present to the public; the parade square soldier and the soldier who just spent a week fighting Hubert Meyer's 12th SS. Neither impression is incorrect, just a short cameo of the life of a Canadian soldier at various points during his service to his country. We put on a lot of show battles here for the public and I always thought that the reenactor next to me with the polished boots, freshly pressed uniform, and clean shaven face looked way out of place whereas my guys with the dirty boots, wrinkled uniform, and scraggly faces looked more authentic, but that's just my opinion...and a few others. In any event, I'm sorry my position on this matter disturbs you so much but I'm not going to stop accurately portraying what a Canadian soldier looked like after a week in combat. Also this will be my last response to this thread as I'm not the least bit interested in pissing matches. respectfully, Derek
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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See American Rifleman March 2011 issue
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Initially, Home Guard Special Units, then Commando Units (5 in total), and finally regular Home Guard units. The Brits ordered 514,000 Thompsons of all types but by April 1942 only 100,000 had arrived which led to the Sten SMG being rushed into production. "Sten guns became a priority for issue to all European Theatre of Operations (ETO) Commonwealth Troops with the exception of the Commando brigades who were mostly supplied with Thompsons--and wanted to keep them" Martin Pegler CHEEMO! Derek.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
#29
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Smokey Smith
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I talked to Smokey Smith a few years ago at the war memorial on 11 November,in Ottawa, and asked him if he preferred the Tommy gun over the Sten..He said..If it wasn't for the Tommy gun..you and I wouldn't be talking today.. ..I loved it.." Here is his story.. Ernest(Smokey) Smith VC Birthdate: 3 May 1914 Website: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm Category: Military Ernest Alvia 'Smokey' Smith, VC, CD, was born in New Westminster, B.C. in 1914 and educated in elementary and technical schools there. He left his work with a contracting firm to enlist in the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada in March 1940, joining the regiment overseas a few months later. He was a private when he won the Victoria Cross at the Savio River in Italy on Oct. 21-22, 1944. The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada were the spearhead of the attack across the river, which torrential rain had caused to rise six feet in five hours, making it impossible to get tanks and anti-tank guns across to support the rifle companies. The right forward company was suddenly counter-attacked by three Panzer tanks, supported by self-propelled guns and some 30 infantry. Private Smith led his PIAT (projector, infantry, anti-tank) group of two men across an open field and left one man on the weapon. Crossing the road, Private Smith obtained another PIAT. An enemy tank attacked and wounded the man on the first PIAT. Smith fired his own and put the tank out of action. German infantry jumped from the tank and attacked him but Smith drove them back with his tommy gun. Obtaining more tommy magazines which had been abandoned in a ditch, Private Smith steadfastly held his position, and later gave aid to his wounded comrade. "No further immediate attack developed and as a result, the battalion was able to consolidate the bridgehead position so vital to the success of the whole operation, which led to the eventual capture of San Giorgio Di Cesena and a further advance to the Ronco River," reads the citation in part. 'Smokey' Smith left the army for a short time after the war, but rejoined and served until August 1964, when he was released with the rank of sergeant. On August 3, 2005, Smokey Smith passed away in Vancouver as Canada's last surviving recipient of the Victoria Cross; Canada's highest award for valour. In 1996, Smokey Smith was named a Member the Order of Canada. In 2002 he received the Order of British Columbia. His honours, decorations and medals include: The Victoria Cross, the Order of Canada, the Order of British Columbia, 1939-45 Star, Italy Star, Defense Medal, Canadian Voluntary Service Medal, 1939-45 War Medal, Queen Elizabeth Coronation Medal, Canada Centennial Medal, Queen Elizabeth II Silver Jubilee Medal, Canada 125 Medal, Queen’s Golden Jubilee Medal and the Canadian Forces Service.
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk: |
#30
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Shot attached is a soldier with Number 4 Commando armed with a Model 1928 Thompson as he and his unit were moving inland from Sword Beach on their way to Ranville on June 6, 1944. Their unit also carried Sten guns at this time. Some Commandos also still had Thompsons at the time of the Rhine Crossing in March 1945.
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David Gordon - MVPA # 15292 '41 Willys MB British Airborne Jeep '42 Excelsior Welbike Mark I '43 BSA Folding Military Bicycle '44 Orme-Evans Airborne Trailer No. 1 Mk. II '44 Airborne 100-Gallon Water Bowser Trailer '44 Jowett Cars 4.2-Inch Towed Mortar '44 Daimler Scout Car Mark II '45 Studebaker M29C Weasel |
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