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  #1  
Old 08-07-05, 22:50
Bill Miller's Avatar
Bill Miller Bill Miller is offline
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Default Upside Down Tank

I received this photo from a veteran's estate. It is unmarked and the only thing I am reasonably sure of is that it is Canadian Army and was taken between 1941 and 1945.
Can anyone positively ID the type of tank and perhaps location and approx. date?
Not much detail to go on I know, but maybe there are clues I am not seeing.
Thanks,
Bill
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  #2  
Old 08-07-05, 23:26
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Default Late Sherman

Bill,

Very late-war Sherman (note the HVSS suspension)... it may not even be Canadian - I don't know how many, if any, we received during the war - but it could be Polish (I know they got some 76mm's before war's end). I wonder how the sillybugger managed to turn it over...
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  #3  
Old 08-07-05, 23:39
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Default And the truck

Looks like a GMC CCKW.
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  #4  
Old 09-07-05, 00:58
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Default Re: And the truck

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Webb
Looks like a GMC CCKW.
and at least it (the GMC) was sencible and remained right way up.

cheers
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  #5  
Old 09-07-05, 03:24
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Default

Hi

Strathcona Sherman in Korea? I have a feeling I've seen this accident before? Maybe.

regards
D
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  #6  
Old 09-07-05, 04:43
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
Strathcona Sherman in Korea? I have a feeling I've seen this accident before? Maybe.
Hmmm... Bill?

The guy who sold Bill the pic and some Kangaroo stuff was a Strathcona (65-87)...
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  #7  
Old 09-07-05, 06:45
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Default Strathconas?

The guy that sold me the photo was a Strathcona, yes. However, this was not his personal photo nor did he recognize it. The man it belonged to was one Trooper John McKenzie Ewing M45815, here is what little I know about him from the few photos and scraps of paper I have received.:

Joined the South Alberta Regiment in June of 1941. May have lived in Medicine Hat previous to the War. At some point prior to Nov. 1944 he was Taken on Strength with the "kangaroos". Was WIA in February of 1945. Was in hospital (maybe for an unrelated illness in Sept 1945) I suspect he may have returned to Canada with the S.A.R. in Dec. of 1945 but not sure. (I do not have his discharge papers or service booklets.) Was living in Calgary in 1951 and 1952 (so Korean service may be out?). That's it, not sure at this point, what became of the man after 1952. :

The above photo was the only one of his with vehicles or equipment all the rest, 6 in total, were personnel photos (One looks like a WW1 red cross medic?). All photos were unmarked. I didn't think the upside down tank was a Ram and the barren landscape is not evocative of Holland. I did think the photo might be taken in Alberta post war.

If anybody does know the story behind the picture, I'd love to hear it. Thanks so much for the input!!

Bill.
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  #8  
Old 09-07-05, 08:04
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Default Re: Strathconas?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Miller
I didn't think the upside down tank was a Ram and the barren landscape is not evocative of Holland. I did think the photo might be taken in Alberta post war.
IMHO with the GMC in the background marked with a white star the pic is definately wartime (1941-45) and probably not in Canada.

another thing of note is that there is no sign of personal weapons with any of the people in the photo so they must have been in a reasonable safe area.

cheers
Cliff
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  #9  
Old 09-07-05, 08:45
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Default ????

What are the objects in left hand lower corner of the photo, and is the person close to the tank a civvy? of what extraction? Do the berets and belts help at all?
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  #10  
Old 09-07-05, 08:49
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Default Bridge

The bridge appears to be a stone bridge. where do you find those sort of bridges? Europe?
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  #11  
Old 10-07-05, 14:46
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Default

The Sherman tank has HVSS suspension. The Canadians did not use this type of Sherman during the Second World War. They had bought a large number of M4A2E8ís after the war, which was used to equip armoured units in Canada. The Canadians also used M4A3E8ís in Korea. So the picture would have to be post WWII, either taken in Canada or in Korea. I would think that the white star on the truck would point to Korea.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-05, 18:20
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by John McGillivray
The Sherman tank has HVSS suspension. The Canadians did not use this type of Sherman during the Second World War. They had bought a large number of M4A2E8ís after the war, which was used to equip armoured units in Canada. The Canadians also used M4A3E8ís in Korea. So the picture would have to be post WWII, either taken in Canada or in Korea. I would think that the white star on the truck would point to Korea.
I agree. If it is a Canadian tank in the picture, it is either an M4A2E8 in Canada or an M4A3E8 in Korea. In 1951 the Lord Strathcona's Horse swapped their M10 w/17 SP Guns for M4A3E8 Shermans in Korea (see Sherman Encyclopedia > Canada).

Either that, or it an overturned US Army Sherman in Germany(?) near the end of WW2.

I'd bet on Korea.

H.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-05, 18:39
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Post Re: Upside Down Tank

I agree with John, I would say that it is Korea.

Cheers
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  #14  
Old 11-07-05, 12:39
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Default Korea

The GMC trucks were used in Korea. With the recognition star (which to my knowledge, were not painted on vehicles used in Canada), one would conclude that the image is from Korea.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-05, 23:37
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Default Korea it is!

Consensus says it is Korea, that's good enough for me.

Unfortunately, that leads me to more questions than answers regarding the gentleman who originally owned the photo!? Thanks everyone.

Bill.
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  #16  
Old 16-04-06, 22:43
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Default The saga continues...

On friday, at the Calgary Gun Show, I came across more items from the veterans estate where the original photo came from. Lo and behold there were more photos in this series. It looks to me as if the markings on the tank confirms the Korean era. Unfortunately none of the "new" photos are marked either.

Perhaps some of the MLU members may be able pick out some more details/clues which may point to date/location/event from these new pictures?

The tank is marked "ARGYLE II". AoS number 41. There is a sign in the rear with a number 79 and the words "Concealed exit".

There was another photo of a different Sherman marked "Audacity", seems to be in the same/similar location.

Bill.
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  #17  
Old 16-04-06, 22:44
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Default Right Side up...

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  #18  
Old 16-04-06, 22:46
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Default Audacity

From the same photo series. "Audacity"
Bill.
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  #19  
Old 17-04-06, 12:18
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Default Re: The saga continues...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Miller
Perhaps some of the MLU members may be able pick out some more details/clues which may point to date/location/event from these new pictures?
Bill, great find!

The picture shows the Sherman in question is fitted with a Ford GAA V8 engine, thus it it is of the M4A3E8 type. As the Canadian Army only used the M4A3E8 in Korea (see Sherman Encyclopedia > Canada), these pictures must have been taken there.

So my earlier bet was right - what were the stakes on that bet

H.
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  #20  
Old 17-04-06, 15:05
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Default Re: Re: The saga continues...

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
So my earlier bet was right - what were the stakes on that bet
Hanno...
You'll have to get in line....
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  #21  
Old 17-04-06, 17:27
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Post Re: The saga continues...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Miller
Perhaps some of the MLU members may be able pick out some more details/clues which may point to date/location/event from these new pictures?
Hi Bill;

I would say that both ARGYLE II and AUDACITY belong to "A" Squadron of the Strathcona's who served in Korea from May 1953 to June 1954. There are two reason's why I say this, in 1945, 4th Troop, "A" Sqn had a Firefly named ARGYLE and that from May 1951 through to June 1954, the armoured squadron with 25th Cdn Inf Bde was supplied by the Strathcona's:

May 51 to Jun 52 - "C" Sqn LdSH
Jun 52 to May 53 - "B" Sqn LdSH
May 53 to Jun 54 - "A" Sqn LdSH
Jun 54 to Nov 54 - "D" Sqn RCD

Within the Strathcona's, tank names usually started with the letter of the squadron designation, ie those in "A" Sqn started with the letter A, "B" Sqn, the letter B, etc. ......

Anyways Bill, hope this helps.

Cheers
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  #22  
Old 17-04-06, 18:02
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Default A Squadron LdSH

Hi Mark,

With the names, "Argyle" and "Audacity" I thought it might be "A" Squadron.

I was reading through the RCAC History book yesterday and read that these Shermans were purchased from the Americans in Korea. I think the number purchased was 22. What is unclear to me is whether that was 22 total? Or 22 per Squadron? Correct me if I am wrong but from what I read and your list of active dates, the squadrons rotated active duty so a total of 22 "shared" tanks makes more sense. If that is the case, did each Squadron repaint the vehicles (or at least the names on the vehicles) when they took over. The RCAC book has a photo of a "C" Squadron tank called "Cougar"...

If they only had 22 tanks total, then rolling one over was probably a cause for concern.

Did these tanks come back to Canada or were they returned to the US Army (or South Koreans)?

(After all this I am still not certain how this relates to my "Kangaroo" vet that owned them. Other than these photos everything else I have relates to WW2 service. His medals are WW2 only, no Korean service?)

Thanks,

Bill.
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  #23  
Old 17-04-06, 23:50
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Default Re: A Squadron LdSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Miller
I was reading through the RCAC History book yesterday and read that these Shermans were purchased from the Americans in Korea. I think the number purchased was 22. What is unclear to me is whether that was 22 total? Or 22 per Squadron? Correct me if I am wrong but from what I read and your list of active dates, the squadrons rotated active duty so a total of 22 "shared" tanks makes more sense. If that is the case, did each Squadron repaint the vehicles (or at least the names on the vehicles) when they took over. The RCAC book has a photo of a "C" Squadron tank called "Cougar"...

If they only had 22 tanks total, then rolling one over was probably a cause for concern.

Did these tanks come back to Canada or were they returned to the US Army (or South Koreans)?

Hi Bill;

From what I have, Canada purchased 30 from the Americans in Korea with "C" Sqn LdSH (the first user unit) drawing 20, which would leave 10 in reserve. On rotation, the incoming squadron would have painted out the outgoing squadron markings (and name) and applied the squadron markings (and names) applicable to their squadron. What happened to these tanks when "D" Sqn RCD left Korea in late 1954, I have no idea, but I doubt the tanks themselves came back to Canada, they likely were sold off in theatre.

Cheers
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  #24  
Old 17-04-06, 23:57
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Default Re: Re: A Squadron LdSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
What happened to these tanks when "D" Sqn RCD left Korea in late 1954, I have no idea, but I doubt the tanks themselves came back to Canada, they likely were sold off in theatre.
Since these Sherman tanks were supplied by the U.S. Army, they were most likely handed back to them.

H.
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  #25  
Old 18-04-06, 00:04
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Default Re: Re: Re: A Squadron LdSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Since these Sherman tanks were supplied by the U.S. Army, they were most likely handed back to them.
Hi Hanno;

You meant to say "they were most likely sold back to them" didn't you......
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  #26  
Old 18-04-06, 00:18
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: A Squadron LdSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
You meant to say "they were most likely sold back to them" didn't you......
David Bercuson in Blood on the Hills mentions "Ottawa authorized Rocky to arrange to swap the M-10 tank destroyers of C Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse, for Sherman M4A3 tanks, supplied by the U.S. Army". I don't know what "supplied" means in this particular case, but as far as I know there was some sort of Lend-Lease scheme for in-theatre supplies. I'm pretty sure the US controlled arms trafficing in Korea, so it is highly unlikely they were "sold off in theatre". BTW, I would not be surprised if the Murricans forgot to hand back those M10s when the Canucks came rounds to hand in the Shermans at the motor pool

H.
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  #27  
Old 18-04-06, 03:00
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Post Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Squadron LdSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
David Bercuson in Blood on the Hills mentions "Ottawa authorized Rocky to arrange to swap the M-10 tank destroyers of C Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse, for Sherman M4A3 tanks, supplied by the U.S. Army".
Hi Hanno;

Yes, I have read that account also, and have also read in other accounts, that these Shermans were - purchased from the Americans; - bought from the Americans; - leased from the Americans and - supplied by the Americans. By whether it was by purchase/lease/supplied that they ended up in Canadian hands, in the end, they stayed in Korea after the departure of "D" Sqn RCD in '54.

Cheers
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